THE BONUS DUNGEON IS THE FINAL DUNGEON?

author=SgtMettool
Now, I have a question for you folks since we're on the topic of final dungeons:

What is your opinion on the idea of multiple, mutually-exclusive final dungeons? For example, depending on the path that you take through a game, you might end up in Final Dungeon A or Final Dungeon B, but not both. Neither is a bonus dungeon. You get one or the other. Interesting concept or dick move?

Asking for, uh, reasons.

I'm all for it, I have a similar idea for one of my own games. The tl;dr for that is basically there's five final bosses and as you play through the game you eliminate them one at a time at the player's choice while the rest try to complete their machinations first (and ergo become more powerful). The last one finishes and becomes the final boss who tries to rule the world. Each one has their own final dungeon. There's even a secret super final boss that's its own path entirely.

(it will never be finished)

author=Jeroen_Sol

author=Desertopa
I agree with RedNova that I'd find it pretty weird in storytelling terms for the player characters to deliberately impose the challenge of an unnecessarily harder dungeon on themselves... just because.

I... don't agree this is a valid argument. "Just because" is a completely valid reason for the player characters to do anything. It is also the reason people backtrack to previous towns, and kill lots of monsters in order to level grind. In many games, neither of these things make sense from a plot perspective, especially while the great threat of the final boss is looming over the world. Does that mean you shouldn't allow backtracking or grinding in rpgs? No, because limiting the freedom of the player like that would be no fun whatsoever.

"Just because" is adequate reason for the player characters to do some things. Some games do limit backtracking and grinding (a lot of designers look for ways to limit grinding,) but I also prefer it when games permit those things... as long as there isn't a pressing plot reason not to.

Like, at times when the plot doesn't carry a great deal of urgency, there's no particular reason why the protagonists shouldn't be able to wander around aimlessly, revisiting old locations, completing sidequests, etc. If the plot entails that the protagonists are on the run and are constantly being tailed by people trying to apprehend them, and you still let the player wander around aimlessly, backtracking and hanging around to complete sidequests, then you're trivializing your own narrative for the sake of player freedom.

Or, to apply this to a case which a lot of video games actually use, if you want to let the player wander around right near the end of the game completing sidequests, finishing off subplots and such, it's better to make sure that this isn't a point where the plot says the world is in imminent danger of destruction where every second counts towards ending the final conflict.

I enjoy having freedom as a player, but I don't like it when exercising that freedom means doing things that seem dumb in the context of the narrative.

author=Jeroen_Sol
Considering the heavily lauded Final Fantasy and Legend of Zelda series both do this exact thing, I question your assertion that people feel narrative is trivialized by such player freedom. Some people may feel less invested in the story if it can be put on hold, sure, but I don't think many people do.

Just because they're popular, doesn't mean they're faultless. Certainly I've known many players other than myself to complain about how silly this is.

It's not like there aren't plenty of ways around this. You can make a final dungeon where the Big Bad is waiting for the protagonists to show up for the final confrontation, and won't proceed without them. You can make the bonus content available before the Point Of No Return where the plot becomes time-critical, and make it clear what events will trigger that point so the player knows to get everything else out of the way before moving on. You can put bonus content in an epilogue after the main conflict has already been dealt with. With time travel elements, the protagonists can put the final confrontation on hold indefinitely, because it always takes place at a specific point in time, and they can approach that time whenever it's most convenient for them. You can have a final confrontation which actually occurs on the protagonists' initiative rather than the antagonists', so they can choose when to take the fight to the Big Bad.

If you don't actually care that much about the narrative, then you don't need to worry about these sorts of things. But if you want the narrative to be a major selling point for the audience, it's generally better to keep the gameplay and narrative in support of each other rather than letting one undermine the other.

I really like how Star Ocean 2 has solved that. After beating the game, you can leave the final dungeon again, do the bonus dungeon, gain tons of levels and strong equips. But then (with some actions you need to do) you can return to the final boss and now he's much harder and still a challenge. And as a reward you even get a slightly different ending.

I'd say something is optional if you can beat the game (I.E. make the credits roll) without doing it.

author=RyaReisender
I really like how Star Ocean 2 has solved that. After beating the game, you can leave the final dungeon again, do the bonus dungeon, gain tons of levels and strong equips. But then (with some actions you need to do) you can return to the final boss and now he's much harder and still a challenge. And as a reward you even get a slightly different ending.

Well...you've sort of got it mixed up.

1. The optional dungeon in SO2, the Cave of Trials, doesn't require you to beat the game. All the player needs to do is save at the last save point in the final dungeon, leave the way you came, and go and fulfill the steps to go there.

2. 'No Limiter' Indalecio (basically, an ultracharged version of the final boss) can very well be activated by a player who has no idea that he/she did it; all you have to do is encounter two Private Actions throughout the game that the player may very well do by accident. If that happens, you're stuck with a version of the Final Boss that literally requires almost +100 more levels than before to beat him.

You can see the problem with this; it's optional in the fact that you don't have to do it, yeah, but the requirements that replace the final boss with an ULTRA POWERFUL final boss, at first glance are pretty arbitrary and irreversible, a casual player will have no idea or indication that it happened, and can leave the casual player completely unable to beat the game. The final boss of SO2 is tough enough on his own, but the super charged version of it is more or less completely unfuckitable unless you're balls deep in side quests; you pretty much can't beat him with a casual run of the game.

I didn't mix it up, I just didn't mention it because it's irrelevant. When you reach the final boss, you also fight him. I have my doubts someone accidentally activated "Limiter Off" Indalecio. Who leaves the final dungeon after reaching the final boss? Only completionists.

I just beat Stranger of Sword City and after the credits roll you re-awaken at the start of the final dungeon and one of the characters tells you that you're in a sort of dream-like world and there's powerful monsters to kill in bonus dungeons, or you can go on to Newgame+ after getting a certain item from him.

That's also another example of a game that I'm not getting all the endings in. There's 3 story-wise but the game has a really nice (though facepalmy marketing) feature where you can change the artwork between the original Korean-esque art and a more generic anime style. So to some there would be 6 endings since you'd need to change the art style for the final two CGs of each route. But to me 6 just isn't worth doing the final arc again. 3 isn't worth doing the final arc again.

Another example where the post-game content is expressly stated to be outside the narrative is Cross Edge. There it's played off as a "the developers want you to challenge yourself and use absolutely everybody." thing. Dead characters come back with a sort of "Yay! The developers brought me back!" vibe. There is narrative content but nothing related to the plot.

Wait, as far as I know you can only limiter off when you've saved at the final save point.

Also Indalecio Limiter On isn't so hard. o.o

author=Rys
You have to do the PA in Click or w/e that port town that gets wiped out on Expel and meet Filia, the woman who says the town is gonna get destroyed. If you do that and save at the final save point you can see Filia again in that PA in Nede to get super sand legend Indalecio.

This is correct, my mistake. I remember the first time I played the game though, I exited the tower because Limiter On version was giving my difficulty so I wanted to explore some more, and then I activated that PA and doubly screwed myself.

author=GRG
(it's hard to call any super boss in SO2 hard when the Bloody Armor and Algol Shield are available. Nobody resists it and you can just throw bodies and saves at the boss to get a parry proc and instantly win)

This is true, but I sure has hell didn't know that in what, 1999?

author=Rys
Also Indalecio Limiter On isn't so hard. o.o

To a casual player of the game without knowledge of stuff like Bloody Armor and such, and taken in context with the average difficulty of RPGs at the time, hell yeah he's hard.