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"DID I ACCIDENTALLY JUST GO COMMERCIAL?" (A PATREON CONUNDRUM)
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unity
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CloseOver at the rpgmakerweb forums, an interesting question was asked: "Does patreon make a game become commercial?" By that, they mean, if you are making a free-to-play game but you get money from Patreon, is your game actually commercial, and must you pay commercial fees and get commercial licenses (and avoid using "non-commercial only" scripts or resources).
The answer over there seems to range from "It depends on who you ask, so you need to contact everyone and make sure they are cool with it" to "You've made money via Patreon, so your game is automatically commercial."
Me, I have a Patreon. I make $12 a month from a couple of nice people's donations. That's it. So if these assertions are true, despite me releasing everything for free, I'm actually making things as a commercial enterprise and I didn't even realize it.
If this is true, then perhaps I should consider shutting down my patreon account. $12 a month isn't worth having to contact everyone and potentially pay commercial fees for games that I'm releasing for free.
What does everyone think? I'm curious about others' takes (or especially if anyone who knows about the legal side of all of this).
The answer over there seems to range from "It depends on who you ask, so you need to contact everyone and make sure they are cool with it" to "You've made money via Patreon, so your game is automatically commercial."
Me, I have a Patreon. I make $12 a month from a couple of nice people's donations. That's it. So if these assertions are true, despite me releasing everything for free, I'm actually making things as a commercial enterprise and I didn't even realize it.
If this is true, then perhaps I should consider shutting down my patreon account. $12 a month isn't worth having to contact everyone and potentially pay commercial fees for games that I'm releasing for free.
What does everyone think? I'm curious about others' takes (or especially if anyone who knows about the legal side of all of this).
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I cannot see how a game you're making could possibly be linked to Patreon in any practical terms.
Unless you are offering the game in exchange for patreon subscription, you're just getting paid in one area, and making another thing somewhere else.
Unless you are offering the game in exchange for patreon subscription, you're just getting paid in one area, and making another thing somewhere else.
author=Sooz
I cannot see how a game you're making could possibly be linked to Patreon in any practical terms.
Unless you are offering the game in exchange for patreon subscription, you're just getting paid in one area, and making another thing somewhere else.
That's what I thought, too, that as long as the game itself was free that it wasn't commercial. But people on RMW seem to very strongly disagree XD I wonder what Degica's official position is, on that.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Are any of the disagreeing people lawyers? Because unless they are, I'd put them in the same category as people that think an undercover officer has to answer the question "Are you a cop?" truthfully.
author=Sooz
Are any of the disagreeing people lawyers? Because unless they are, I'd put them in the same category as people that think an undercover officer has to answer the question "Are you a cop?" truthfully.
Several are, like, site admins. I've asked if they know Degica's official stance on the matter, so maybe that'll generate more concrete results.
But, you're probably right. As usual, I'm probably over-worrying XD;;;;;
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
"It depends on who you ask, so you need to contact everyone and make sure they are cool with it"
I'm leaning more towards this opinion because it's the safest and least muddy path.
Seeing as crowdfunding is a relatively new practice and the law (from what little I've read) hasn't caught up, I don't think there is a clear yes or no to this answer right now. Until there is, I think it's safest to assume that Patreon and crowdfunding are considered commercial endeavors to avoid trouble with creators with a dissenting opinion and just be careful about which resources you take from where.
Am I weird for thinking it's kind of funny you two are having this conversation here on RMN even though as far as I know you're practically sitting right next to each other in real life?
Edit: This was directed at Sooz and unity, before Red_Nova sniped me.
Either way, I'm not trying to be the pessimistic person here, but from what I remember asking for donations does count as a commercial endeavour in the eyes of many content creators. If the Patreon page is set up with the stated purpose of supporting game development (and not unity as a peron, even though that would totally deserve funding ^_^), then a number of license holders might see that as making money from something that uses their content.
On the other hand, it's not like anyone is actually paying you for the games you release, as they are free - your patrons give you money to support you as a game maker. It still seems a little problematic to me though, in all honesty.
Edit: This was directed at Sooz and unity, before Red_Nova sniped me.
Either way, I'm not trying to be the pessimistic person here, but from what I remember asking for donations does count as a commercial endeavour in the eyes of many content creators. If the Patreon page is set up with the stated purpose of supporting game development (and not unity as a peron, even though that would totally deserve funding ^_^), then a number of license holders might see that as making money from something that uses their content.
On the other hand, it's not like anyone is actually paying you for the games you release, as they are free - your patrons give you money to support you as a game maker. It still seems a little problematic to me though, in all honesty.
author=NeverSilent
Am I weird for thinking it's kind of funny you two are having this conversation here on RMN even though as far as I know you're practically sitting right next to each other in real life?
Edit: This was directed at Sooz and unity, before Red_Nova sniped me.
I'm out of the house at the moment, so I couldn't ask her directly XD
author=NeverSilent
Either way, I'm not trying to be the pessimistic person here, but from what I remember asking for donations does count as a commercial endeavour in the eyes of many content creators. If the Patreon page is set up with the stated purpose of supporting game development (and not unity as a peron, even though that would totally deserve funding ^_^), then a number of license holders might see that as making money from something that uses their content.
On the other hand, it's not like anyone is actually paying you for the games you release, as they are free - your patrons give you money to support you as a game maker. It still seems a little problematic to me though, in all honesty.
See, this is what makes me consider deleting my account. It's cleaner and simpler that way.
Shinan
4314
I don't think it's very problematic. I mean isn't Patreon just like having a paypal button or something. Voluntary donations to a creator does not suddenly make anything the creator does commercial.
If someone gives me a fiver and says "good job" it doesn't suddenly mean I've gone full commercial.
If someone gives me a fiver and says "good job" it doesn't suddenly mean I've gone full commercial.
author=Shinan
I don't think it's very problematic. I mean isn't Patreon just like having a paypal button or something. Voluntary donations to a creator does not suddenly make anything the creator does commercial.
If someone gives me a fiver and says "good job" it doesn't suddenly mean I've gone full commercial.
This makes the most sense to me, but so many people over there were saying that even having the option to donate meant that you had "gone commercial" that I really wanted to check. ^^
What goals do you explicitly state on your Paetron? (Sorry I haven't visited it)
I think some of the points raised over at RMW hold true. If the money you are raising is to make games, then how is it distinguishable from a regular profit that comes from explicitly selling a game?
It feels like such a shaky thing due to how many holes are in Creative Commons in general, and I'm pretty sure creators would still see it as a commercial endeavor. I'd probably save yourself the risk, but I'm not completely sure.
I think some of the points raised over at RMW hold true. If the money you are raising is to make games, then how is it distinguishable from a regular profit that comes from explicitly selling a game?
It feels like such a shaky thing due to how many holes are in Creative Commons in general, and I'm pretty sure creators would still see it as a commercial endeavor. I'd probably save yourself the risk, but I'm not completely sure.
author=Ratty524
What goals do you explicitly state on your Paetron? (Sorry I haven't visited it)
I think some of the points raised over at RMW hold true. If the money you are raising is to make games, then how is it distinguishable from a regular profit that comes from explicitly selling a game?
It feels like such a shaky thing due to how many holes are in Creative Commons in general, and I'm pretty sure creators would still see it as a commercial endeavor. I'd probably save yourself the risk, but I'm not completely sure.
Yeah, it is specifically to help me make RPGs or to send a little my way if you enjoy my work, so that makes a lot of sense.
Merlandese
3235
If I made a game in the Free to Play category and released it on Steam, can I use non-commercial assets?
I don't know the answer to this question, but if someone says that you CAN use non-commercial assets on this page (Steam: Free to Play) then the same holds true for a Patreon page.
But if getting no money from a Free to Play game can somehow bar you from using non-commercial assets then I don't see how a Patreon-funded game could honestly feel they're doing anything different. Both offer free games, publicly, using assets that benefit their downloads and visibility, but one asks for money through Patreon.
I don't know the answer to this question, but if someone says that you CAN use non-commercial assets on this page (Steam: Free to Play) then the same holds true for a Patreon page.
But if getting no money from a Free to Play game can somehow bar you from using non-commercial assets then I don't see how a Patreon-funded game could honestly feel they're doing anything different. Both offer free games, publicly, using assets that benefit their downloads and visibility, but one asks for money through Patreon.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Everyone just make your own resources as if it's really that easy*. Problem solved XD
Anyway, I just read through the RMW thread, and I have to agree that the answers should be up to the creators of the content. Creators (generally speaking) have the right to dictate the use of their assets in commercial and non-commercial products, so I think it's only natural for that right to include the interpretations of what constitutes a commercial endeavor or not. Based on the opinions shown here, on RMW, and on Twitter, creators have a pretty wide range of opinions, so I feel this sort of question is best answered on a case-by-case basis.
Perhaps creators can be encouraged to be more specific as to what constitutes a commercial endeavor in their terms of service? That would certainly make the process a lot easier for everyone.
*: that was sarcasm, before anyone jumps down my throat.
Anyway, I just read through the RMW thread, and I have to agree that the answers should be up to the creators of the content. Creators (generally speaking) have the right to dictate the use of their assets in commercial and non-commercial products, so I think it's only natural for that right to include the interpretations of what constitutes a commercial endeavor or not. Based on the opinions shown here, on RMW, and on Twitter, creators have a pretty wide range of opinions, so I feel this sort of question is best answered on a case-by-case basis.
Perhaps creators can be encouraged to be more specific as to what constitutes a commercial endeavor in their terms of service? That would certainly make the process a lot easier for everyone.
*: that was sarcasm, before anyone jumps down my throat.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=unity
Several are, like, site admins.
Any idiot with a computer can be a site admin. There is no reason to trust their opinion on ANYTHING just because they have the power to ban users.
You are paid in patreon by people who want to support you making games. Not by people who want to buy a specific game.
You are not offering any products or services in exchange for patreon money, other than putting someone's name in a place on a game you make. There is no credible reason to think that a judge would deem a game commercial because the creator was receiving patreon money.
I'd guess it's close to busking, which is not legally considered the same as vending. You're offering a product free of charge. You're also receiving monetary donations. The one is not connected to the other in any way beyond "I want you to keep offering these things."
Yeah, I'm with the idea that people giving you money 'just cos' doesn't mean they're buying your game. That's like saying I'm making a commercial game because I'm doing it on stream, where people can donate if they wanted and I get ad revenue for it. It's not making a commercial game in any way, shape or form.
As Sooz said, there's no expectation from the people to get a game from you. It's just to support you in general, not to make sure a game comes out. Like, what if the game fails? Do you have to give them back their money? No, because that was not the expectation when the money was given, so there's nothing there that states that the game is commercial in any way.
As Sooz said, there's no expectation from the people to get a game from you. It's just to support you in general, not to make sure a game comes out. Like, what if the game fails? Do you have to give them back their money? No, because that was not the expectation when the money was given, so there's nothing there that states that the game is commercial in any way.
Kaempfer
1932
There are lots of instances of being able to accept donations for otherwise free work- see lots of fan games and non-commercial projects. These donations are unrelated to the work being generated in a legal sense, as you're selling a product, you're receiving an unrelated gratuity from a potentially unrelated entity.
This is why you see a lot of work that has to be strictly non-commercial being released for free with a big "DONATE NOW" button right next to it. Donations (and by extension Patreon accounts) have no legal connection to the work being produced. A team of well-paid lawyers might be able to argue otherwise, but a team of well-paid lawyers can argue anything.
What you seem to be most worried about is the moral implication of "going commercial". To that I say: What creative commons license holder with a soul would care about some independent developer making $12 a month? If you were making thousands of dollars on the backs of people releasing their work for free under creative commons, that'd be one thing, but you're not. You're not laughing at the foolish proles from your throne of gold as you skirt legal ramifications, you're an independent benefitting from the work of like-minded independents, some of whom probably have Patreon accounts to support their creation of CC-attributed work.
I don't see any legal or moral issue with using a Patreon to make enough to see approximately one movie (non-3D) a month. The very fact that you're even worried about this pretty much guarantees you're not part of the problem.
This is why you see a lot of work that has to be strictly non-commercial being released for free with a big "DONATE NOW" button right next to it. Donations (and by extension Patreon accounts) have no legal connection to the work being produced. A team of well-paid lawyers might be able to argue otherwise, but a team of well-paid lawyers can argue anything.
What you seem to be most worried about is the moral implication of "going commercial". To that I say: What creative commons license holder with a soul would care about some independent developer making $12 a month? If you were making thousands of dollars on the backs of people releasing their work for free under creative commons, that'd be one thing, but you're not. You're not laughing at the foolish proles from your throne of gold as you skirt legal ramifications, you're an independent benefitting from the work of like-minded independents, some of whom probably have Patreon accounts to support their creation of CC-attributed work.
I don't see any legal or moral issue with using a Patreon to make enough to see approximately one movie (non-3D) a month. The very fact that you're even worried about this pretty much guarantees you're not part of the problem.
Shinan
4314
author=Red_Nova
Perhaps creators can be encouraged to be more specific as to what constitutes a commercial endeavor in their terms of service? That would certainly make the process a lot easier for everyone.
Creators also shouldn't suddenly complain when they released something under a non-restrictive license and people use their stuff without restrictions.
I mean it would be nice if creators sometimes at least took a little bit of responsibility and clearly defined what you could use their stuff for and not. Like if you don't want your stuff to be used then state that the stuff can only be used with permission. (giving permission isn't that hard and asking for it shouldn't be either. Just don't throw something out in the wild say "it's okay to use this" and then not be okay with it being used)
This is probably a rant about something that isn't a real problem...
Merlandese
3235
author=Soozauthor=unityAny idiot with a computer can be a site admin. There is no reason to trust their opinion on ANYTHING just because they have the power to ban users.
Several are, like, site admins.
You are paid in patreon by people who want to support you making games. Not by people who want to buy a specific game.
You are not offering any products or services in exchange for patreon money, other than putting someone's name in a place on a game you make. There is no credible reason to think that a judge would deem a game commercial because the creator was receiving patreon money.
I'd guess it's close to busking, which is not legally considered the same as vending. You're offering a product free of charge. You're also receiving monetary donations. The one is not connected to the other in any way beyond "I want you to keep offering these things."
I generally agree with all of this, but what if Adventure Capitalist used nothing but Hirei's non-commercial assets? Where does that fall, and what sort of difference does it make in terms of, like, game busking? XD
The argument isn't "Do they have the right to have their assets covered if there's a commercial endeavour?" (which they do), but "Is this thing considered a commercial endeavour?" (which it isn't).
author=MerlandeseAh, but that isn't donations from outside the scope of a particular game. That's pay to play which is definitely a commercial endeavour within the game. In this exact case someone is being paid donations by people who are supporting them making in general. It's not based on a specific game, nor part of a game itself (even if only an optional part). There's a big difference.
I generally agree with all of this, but what if Adventure Capitalist used nothing but Hirei's non-commercial assets? Where does that fall, and what sort of difference does it make in terms of, like, game busking? XD
