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WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THE FAN GAMES HERE AFTER WHAT HAPPENED TO THE METROID 2 PROJECT
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GreatRedSpirit
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psy_wombats
13315
bob_esc and I thought about this when we were starting work on our SaGa clone, but then realized that getting a C+D would mean that anyone had actually cared about the game, which would therefore be a success in the first place.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
You know, I have exactly ONE problem with the game. It's REALLY hard to aim directly up without moving forward, and it's hard to move forward without aiming diagonally upwards.
I really wish I could disable the diagonal input on the analog. :(
Aside from that, it's the metroid game I've wanted since Fusion.
I really wish I could disable the diagonal input on the analog. :(
Aside from that, it's the metroid game I've wanted since Fusion.
There's not a lot I want to say on this matter that hasn't already been said.
What I don't get is, why not just make the game you wanted to make, and just change the art? Make it your own? There's absolutely nothing stopping you from making a metroid game as long as it's not called Metroid and doesn't use their assets.
I mean - Fanfiction. I Love fanfiction. But some people put incredible amounts of work into a story that nobody will read and they can never charge money for. So many stories out there deserve to be read, and won't. Because they rely on someone else's intellectual property.
And why? You can just write what you wanted and make it your own universe. That's what 50 Shades did. And it's awful (relatively speaking)!
I write a lot of stuff that's heavily inspired by other IPs - but it's just inspired. I take those ideas and I mash them up into something unique. Some that, should I ever finish, I could actually publish one day.
These guys should do the same - Take a bit of time, Change the art, change a few lines of text, and actually let people have their hard work.
What I don't get is, why not just make the game you wanted to make, and just change the art? Make it your own? There's absolutely nothing stopping you from making a metroid game as long as it's not called Metroid and doesn't use their assets.
I mean - Fanfiction. I Love fanfiction. But some people put incredible amounts of work into a story that nobody will read and they can never charge money for. So many stories out there deserve to be read, and won't. Because they rely on someone else's intellectual property.
And why? You can just write what you wanted and make it your own universe. That's what 50 Shades did. And it's awful (relatively speaking)!
I write a lot of stuff that's heavily inspired by other IPs - but it's just inspired. I take those ideas and I mash them up into something unique. Some that, should I ever finish, I could actually publish one day.
These guys should do the same - Take a bit of time, Change the art, change a few lines of text, and actually let people have their hard work.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
author=Hexatona
I write a lot of stuff that's heavily inspired by other IPs - but it's just inspired. I take those ideas and I mash them up into something unique. Some that, should I ever finish, I could actually publish one day.
I know this feel. I have a story idea kicking around that spawned from the story that I was feeling through my last skyrim character.
Now, I can't just make an elder scrolls story, that's a terrible idea. So if I get around to really making it and not just noting ideas, it's going to be set in my own setting (Probably earlier in the time period of my Shackles of Varn universe). I mean, what really matters is the character and her personal story, not the world in general. The only thing I'm losing is the fact she won't be a kahjiit and speak kinda funny as a result. XD
These guys should do the same - Take a bit of time, Change the art, change a few lines of text, and actually let people have their hard work.
I concur. The Freedom Planet route can work out very well. :)
I'm either/or on this subject. Companies pretty much have to protect their intellectual property, but on the other hand the concept of intellectual property and how its threatened is something that is very rapidly changing in the current business climate, and in some cases the goodwill earned or lost from companies choosing or not choosing to enact their intellectual property rights is worth more than whatever profit they thought they were sacrificing.
The music industry is a pretty good example of this concept. 15 years ago, if someone were to tell a music exec that iTunes, or Amazon Music would be the premier way to get music out there, they would laughed at you. It took the music industry to almost sink like a rock for corporate to realize that the way consumers choose to consume music is changing no matter what laws they try to hold on to.
Currently, this is happening again with Spotify, as music streaming is creeping up on music downloading. I totally get why businesses have to protect their intellectual property and copyright. But on the other hand, shit changes, and wise businesses know how to adapt.
Like I mentioned before, 15 years ago I remember getting into fierce debates with people who thought that if you wanted to listen to music, buying the physical album was the only ethical and sustainable way to do so, and anything else was the devil/unprofitable/wrong/etc and they believed that music companies were wise to stick to that model forever. Now, for the low-as-fuck price of 9.99 a month (or free, really, I just like Premium) I can listen to any song on almost any album ever strummed up by a human ass being on Spotify. Shit changes. Just food for thought.
On it's own this is pretty poor logic. So someone should just do or don't do something just because someone else wants/doesn't want you to? Come on.
The music industry is a pretty good example of this concept. 15 years ago, if someone were to tell a music exec that iTunes, or Amazon Music would be the premier way to get music out there, they would laughed at you. It took the music industry to almost sink like a rock for corporate to realize that the way consumers choose to consume music is changing no matter what laws they try to hold on to.
Currently, this is happening again with Spotify, as music streaming is creeping up on music downloading. I totally get why businesses have to protect their intellectual property and copyright. But on the other hand, shit changes, and wise businesses know how to adapt.
Like I mentioned before, 15 years ago I remember getting into fierce debates with people who thought that if you wanted to listen to music, buying the physical album was the only ethical and sustainable way to do so, and anything else was the devil/unprofitable/wrong/etc and they believed that music companies were wise to stick to that model forever. Now, for the low-as-fuck price of 9.99 a month (or free, really, I just like Premium) I can listen to any song on almost any album ever strummed up by a human ass being on Spotify. Shit changes. Just food for thought.
author=quote
My point still stands that if someone tells you not to do something, maybe you should be a halfway decent human being and not do it.
On it's own this is pretty poor logic. So someone should just do or don't do something just because someone else wants/doesn't want you to? Come on.
Feldschlacht IVauthor=quote
My point still stands that if someone tells you not to do something, maybe you should be a halfway decent human being and not do it.
On it's own this is pretty poor logic. So someone should just do or don't do something just because someone else wants/doesn't want you to? Come on.
OBEY! OBEY! OBEY THE DAAAAAH-LEKS!
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=quoteOn it's own this is pretty poor logic. So someone should just do or don't do something just because someone else wants/doesn't want you to? Come on.
My point still stands that if someone tells you not to do something, maybe you should be a halfway decent human being and not do it.
I'm surprised you actually included "on its own", as if it doesn't just discredit everything that follows. Typically if someone shuts you down, you don't buckle and keep at it until you're physically forced off the premises. What I'm talking about here is avoiding confrontations. Saying "I know measures have already been taken against this action, but I'll continue to do it because I personally have nothing to lose from this exchange" doesn't help anyone.
Once again, I'm actually surprised this even bears discussing.
As I said, on its own its pretty poor logic. In certain contexts, absolutely it's a matter of respect, or loss or gain. But like I said before, someone should not do or don't do something just because someone else wants/doesn't want you to. Unless it's a matter of respect (like your example) or someone is being harmed, someone telling me not to do something doesn't inherently put them at a moral height; their wants or needs don't supersede mine just because they want me to stop or they feel offended.
Come on. This is context specific. I'm sure you know what I meant.
Come on. This is context specific. I'm sure you know what I meant.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Feldschlacht IV
As I said, on its own its pretty poor logic. In certain contexts, absolutely it's a matter of respect, or loss or gain. But like I said before, someone should not do or don't do something just because someone else wants/doesn't want you to. Unless it's a matter of respect (like your example) or someone is being harmed, someone telling me not to do something doesn't inherently put them at a moral height; their wants or needs don't supersede mine just because they want me to stop or they feel offended.
Come on. This is context specific. I'm sure you know what I meant.
And the context is that physical action was taken against the product under the jurisdiction of upholding Nintendo's copyright to the Metroid IP and some people feel they're above the law and will be more than happy to continue to distribute the offending product.
Do you want to take this matter to court and have your ass handed to you by Nintendo's lawyers just because this indie dev decided early on that they weren't going to create something that was solely theirs? They could've named their game literally anything else and drawn their protagonist and wildlife (enemies) in any way that they see fit and they would've completely avoided this whole ordeal. I'm almost certain they could've had a character that was roughly the same as Samus, who rolls up into a ball and shits grenades, and that would've been perfectly fine if it wasn't just straight up Samus Aran™. That kind of stubbornness doesn't warrant three pages of discussion on whether or not they had the right to be stubborn.
I've covered my feelings on this situation above, so I won't engage with you here. I just wanted to point out that particular part of your statement.
Xenomic
1752
Hm...I wonder if I should be worried at all about my project that I've been working on for 8 years. Surely Square wouldn't go after it...would they? I mean, I already knew that there'd be issues with making a "Final Fantasy" fangame (ZUN ain't gonna care about the game either which way so I don't have to worry about that), though I ain't got the spriting power to change sprites and whatnot so...hmmmm. Granted, it uses enemy sprites and that's about it but nonetheless...
(Sometimes, I regret not making my own game and making a fangame instead, but hindsight and all that, ya know?)
(Sometimes, I regret not making my own game and making a fangame instead, but hindsight and all that, ya know?)
UPRC
5516
author=Xenomic
Hm...I wonder if I should be worried at all about my project that I've been working on for 8 years.
If I could work on one for ten years, and then another for almost three (and counting), I'd say you're probably fine. Final Fantasy fan projects rarely ever get the evil eye from Square-Enix.
Kaliesto
583
All I can say that hopefully one day Fan-works will be looked at a different way someday, maybe way later in our lifetimes or after our lifetimes, but there is surely a big movement for it considering how many exists now.
SEGA is slowly going down that path in unexpected ways. (It probably would have been better if Streets of Rage Remake was used as a arrange mode via Steam bundled with the original).
CAPCOM pretty much embraced it, and only asks to credit them (From my understanding how they look at Megaman games, they even directly advertised 8-bit Deathmatch).
So knowing this, let's not be quick to judge, and punish people who do fan-works because the climate is definitely slowly changing. I'm a little sad this conversation got a little argumentative, and I wanted to find middle ground instead of vague polarity.
SEGA is slowly going down that path in unexpected ways. (It probably would have been better if Streets of Rage Remake was used as a arrange mode via Steam bundled with the original).
CAPCOM pretty much embraced it, and only asks to credit them (From my understanding how they look at Megaman games, they even directly advertised 8-bit Deathmatch).
So knowing this, let's not be quick to judge, and punish people who do fan-works because the climate is definitely slowly changing. I'm a little sad this conversation got a little argumentative, and I wanted to find middle ground instead of vague polarity.
Darken
3952
Gotta fight for the rights of fangames. I have a dream!
A game like Sonic Mania technically isn't a fangame btw. Sure it's basically Sega hiring hobbyists and ex-romhackers. But whatever Sega decides goes. There's never going to be a thing that says fan-games are immune to DMCAs or copyrights. I mean I like it the way it is being an underground scene and all. Besides most fangames won't get dmca unless they get attention. Freedom Planet was basically the best possible outcome for a fangame turned original because really it benefits the creators in terms of creativity and being able to make an honest dollar.
It's basically like comparing the RM scene at this point. First you make a few rpgmaker games using rips from SNES games, you decide to become an artist and develop original art (or hire someone to do that) you start making commercial games with original assets and you progressed your humble beginnings.
I don't think this particular aspect of DIY culture needs to change.
A game like Sonic Mania technically isn't a fangame btw. Sure it's basically Sega hiring hobbyists and ex-romhackers. But whatever Sega decides goes. There's never going to be a thing that says fan-games are immune to DMCAs or copyrights. I mean I like it the way it is being an underground scene and all. Besides most fangames won't get dmca unless they get attention. Freedom Planet was basically the best possible outcome for a fangame turned original because really it benefits the creators in terms of creativity and being able to make an honest dollar.
It's basically like comparing the RM scene at this point. First you make a few rpgmaker games using rips from SNES games, you decide to become an artist and develop original art (or hire someone to do that) you start making commercial games with original assets and you progressed your humble beginnings.
I don't think this particular aspect of DIY culture needs to change.
Avee
5794
I just finished AM2R for the first time.
4:47 hours on Normal, 77% items collected.
I didn't bother trying most of the crazier Speed Booster puzzles :P
The game is worthy of standing among the best 2D entries in the series; it gets everything right. I'd say it's one of the most impressive fan games ever made.
Nintendo should license it if they are smart (...and got the balls). Sending a DMCA after the full game was released obviously shows that they respect the game and don't mind people playing it. They only did it to save face in front of their greedy, ignorant shareholders.
People should keep making fan games. Optimistically speaking and judging from the many examples we've seen of companies supporting fan-made work, the times may be changing. And change doesn't happen when you don't press for it.
4:47 hours on Normal, 77% items collected.
I didn't bother trying most of the crazier Speed Booster puzzles :P
The game is worthy of standing among the best 2D entries in the series; it gets everything right. I'd say it's one of the most impressive fan games ever made.
Nintendo should license it if they are smart (...and got the balls). Sending a DMCA after the full game was released obviously shows that they respect the game and don't mind people playing it. They only did it to save face in front of their greedy, ignorant shareholders.
People should keep making fan games. Optimistically speaking and judging from the many examples we've seen of companies supporting fan-made work, the times may be changing. And change doesn't happen when you don't press for it.
Kaempfer
1932
I have no strong stance on this issue either way, because obviously Nintendo has an airtight claim to shutting down AMR2, but, uh...
The argument "they have to do this to protect their copyright" is nonsense. Nintendo has five million lawyers at their disposal. In order for another company to argue that Nintendo has abandoned their copyright Nintendo would have to set a pattern of ignoring infringements to it. A single fan-game doesn't nullify their copyright. It's a popular argument often given to defend big companies when they shut down fan-favourite projects, but it doesn't really hold up in reality. If Nintendo allowed a series of games to be made and stopped releasing their own projects, MAYBE, but I'm pretty sure Nintendo's five millions lawyers could say "yeah but see we have all this proof that this is still our copyright". There is also lots of precedent (lots of it) from other companies that would assist their case, and that's not involving in depth discovery carried out by an army of junior lawyers and clerks. Copyright law has some dumb stuff in it, but you don't magically lose your claim to something because someone else used it.
Nintendo isn't in the wrong in defending their copyright. You don't have to come up with weak psuedo-correct legal arguments to defend them.
I think the crux of the issue here for a lot of people isn't just that Nintendo C&Ded this project (everyone on Earth saw that coming)it's that Metroid fans have been left high and dry by Nintendo. There hasn't been a good game since 2007- that's a long fucking time to wait for them to get off their asses and do something with one of their most beloved franchises. It's painful to see the game that gave us the term "Metroidvania" forgotten and left to rot.
It's not 1989 anymore. Nintendo can evolve their business model to integrate and support independent developers who love them and want to create content in their franchises. I agree that's it's foolish to sink your life into a game that is definitely going to get shut down, but why is that an inevitability? Nintendo could just as easily scoop up the rights to this and distribute it officially. They can send their own team of programmers to check for things that don't meet their level of standards and sell it on the Virtual Console. There is literally nothing stopping them, and it would send all kinds of the right message, instead the one it sends now. Nintendo is like an old man who built the best playground in the neighbourhood but yells at kids whenever they try to play on it.
The argument "they have to do this to protect their copyright" is nonsense. Nintendo has five million lawyers at their disposal. In order for another company to argue that Nintendo has abandoned their copyright Nintendo would have to set a pattern of ignoring infringements to it. A single fan-game doesn't nullify their copyright. It's a popular argument often given to defend big companies when they shut down fan-favourite projects, but it doesn't really hold up in reality. If Nintendo allowed a series of games to be made and stopped releasing their own projects, MAYBE, but I'm pretty sure Nintendo's five millions lawyers could say "yeah but see we have all this proof that this is still our copyright". There is also lots of precedent (lots of it) from other companies that would assist their case, and that's not involving in depth discovery carried out by an army of junior lawyers and clerks. Copyright law has some dumb stuff in it, but you don't magically lose your claim to something because someone else used it.
Nintendo isn't in the wrong in defending their copyright. You don't have to come up with weak psuedo-correct legal arguments to defend them.
I think the crux of the issue here for a lot of people isn't just that Nintendo C&Ded this project (everyone on Earth saw that coming)it's that Metroid fans have been left high and dry by Nintendo. There hasn't been a good game since 2007- that's a long fucking time to wait for them to get off their asses and do something with one of their most beloved franchises. It's painful to see the game that gave us the term "Metroidvania" forgotten and left to rot.
It's not 1989 anymore. Nintendo can evolve their business model to integrate and support independent developers who love them and want to create content in their franchises. I agree that's it's foolish to sink your life into a game that is definitely going to get shut down, but why is that an inevitability? Nintendo could just as easily scoop up the rights to this and distribute it officially. They can send their own team of programmers to check for things that don't meet their level of standards and sell it on the Virtual Console. There is literally nothing stopping them, and it would send all kinds of the right message, instead the one it sends now. Nintendo is like an old man who built the best playground in the neighbourhood but yells at kids whenever they try to play on it.
Roots
14
I want to add on a few legal notes here (I am not a lawyer, but I took a law class in intellectual property some years ago). When you own the copyright to something and you don't protect that copyright (for example, by freely allowing others to create derivative works) then you will eventually lose the rights to it. In fact, the owning company can legally take your derivative work and create it themselves. I believe we studied a case where a fan of the Rocky movies wrote a script for a sequel and shared it with the owners, and they just ended up taking the script without giving the fan anything. Scumbag move for sure, but completely legal.
I have absolutely zero sympathy for projects that get shut down in this way. If you are crazy enough to spend years creating a fan game that is a derivative work of another company's IP, you are in no position to complain when they find out about it and shut you down. Ignorance about copyright law and IP ownership is not an excuse to let them continue. If you really want to create a game using another's IP, you need to talk with the owners, pitch the idea, and sign a legal contract with them. Or better yet, come up with your own original IP and make your own game.
I have absolutely zero sympathy for projects that get shut down in this way. If you are crazy enough to spend years creating a fan game that is a derivative work of another company's IP, you are in no position to complain when they find out about it and shut you down. Ignorance about copyright law and IP ownership is not an excuse to let them continue. If you really want to create a game using another's IP, you need to talk with the owners, pitch the idea, and sign a legal contract with them. Or better yet, come up with your own original IP and make your own game.
As some have mentioned already, fan works are a great way to get yourself acquainted with the creative process. I find them to be excellent practice projects, and once you're established and ready to tackle your own original ideas, you'll have the experience you need to make your original projects shine even more.
Many artists do the same thing, starting with fan works (let's be honest: decent Steven Universe fanart is going to net you thousands of tumblr notes) and moving onto their own original works once those fans and followers are acquired and can be retained.
Personally though, I would not want a fan work to be my magnum opus. If anything, I'd want my best work to be of my own original doing. While spending 5+ years on a fan project is admirable, it's something I can't really wrap my head around in terms of creative accomplishment. Feel free to disagree.
Many artists do the same thing, starting with fan works (let's be honest: decent Steven Universe fanart is going to net you thousands of tumblr notes) and moving onto their own original works once those fans and followers are acquired and can be retained.
Personally though, I would not want a fan work to be my magnum opus. If anything, I'd want my best work to be of my own original doing. While spending 5+ years on a fan project is admirable, it's something I can't really wrap my head around in terms of creative accomplishment. Feel free to disagree.
