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DIFFICULTY LEVELS
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bobthebobish
690
bobthebobish
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Close Ever since the days of dragon warrior I've personally been a big fan of higher difficulty RPGs. That said I know some people would rather breeze through the challenges than do the olde trial by fire routine. This is of course why I like putting in multiple difficulty levels for my games (only one of which is released so no searching!)
My question is: how do you like to implement/see multiple difficulties implemented and if not at all why?
I try to keep most of my difficulty within the battles themselves and leave most of the exploration portion alone. The basics of the formula I am using right now is:
-Easy mode: Random party buffs or monster debuffs at the start of battles
-Normal mode: obvious!
-Hard: Monsters gain extra skills
-Super Hard: Monsters have extra skills and gain random buffs or party is debuffed
-Ultra Hard: everything from super hard AND added non optional nasty bosses with further limitations on saving.
I'm still debating what kinds of content I will add to balance risk/reward in the higher difficulties but I think it gives the player enough to choose from. Anywho there's my stuff just wondering what ideas/thoughts others have on the subject.
My question is: how do you like to implement/see multiple difficulties implemented and if not at all why?
I try to keep most of my difficulty within the battles themselves and leave most of the exploration portion alone. The basics of the formula I am using right now is:
-Easy mode: Random party buffs or monster debuffs at the start of battles
-Normal mode: obvious!
-Hard: Monsters gain extra skills
-Super Hard: Monsters have extra skills and gain random buffs or party is debuffed
-Ultra Hard: everything from super hard AND added non optional nasty bosses with further limitations on saving.
I'm still debating what kinds of content I will add to balance risk/reward in the higher difficulties but I think it gives the player enough to choose from. Anywho there's my stuff just wondering what ideas/thoughts others have on the subject.
Shadowtext
120
Don't use saving limitations as a way to limit difficulty. It punishes the player and inhibits experimentation, rather than adding honest challenge. Stick to making challenges more difficult with harder puzzles, harder enemies, smarter AI, that sort of thing.
Darken
3952
Really I think there just should be a normal mode and a hard mode. It's really not that important in RPGs since it's more about number crunching, exploring the story and solving puzzles. Normal mode is for players who want to follow the story and not worry about conserving every last potion and making the right choices. Hard mode is for veterans who want maybe a secret ending. Or you could make Hard mode some kind of bonus mode from beating normal mode. Having 2568923 different modes really just over simplifies what you want to do and can be very annoying making the same thing over again when you could simply only have to do most things twice.
I've considered adding a hard mode to my current game.
It would basically make the enemies more powerful, gain new skills and increase their intelligence.
It would basically make the enemies more powerful, gain new skills and increase their intelligence.
My current plan is to have three difficulty levels. Easy removes any sense of enemy AI ("Don't cure an ally at full HP? Madness! Debuff enemies before attacking? Ludicrous! Any sense of strategy? Cowardly!") to using random moves and knock down enemy stats a bit.
Hard is trickier. I'd like to increase the difficulty without just making numbers bigger or pulling completely douchebag moves (Pokemon Battle Tower I'm looking at you). The current plan is to step up non-damage moves so (de)buffs target multiple instead of single targets, enemy buffs last longer, and their status afflictions have a higher chance of landing. There's also cases where the player can do something in the dungeon to make the boss weaker/easier to kill, and on Hard those effects are reduced. I'm not sure if this will be enough to create a significant challenge though, especially with enemies who don't use buffs/status afflictions.
I also got a way to change difficulties between battles to help deal with any "wall" bosses that are too difficult. Or where the player wants to tap up the difficulty and see what they can do. Currently there's no reward for playing on a difficulty though except pride, but the game does keep track of the fights (regular and boss) won on the current difficulty.
*edit*
Also please don't limit saves. The final dungeon in FF3 might've been bearable if they just put a god damn save point somewhere.
Hard is trickier. I'd like to increase the difficulty without just making numbers bigger or pulling completely douchebag moves (Pokemon Battle Tower I'm looking at you). The current plan is to step up non-damage moves so (de)buffs target multiple instead of single targets, enemy buffs last longer, and their status afflictions have a higher chance of landing. There's also cases where the player can do something in the dungeon to make the boss weaker/easier to kill, and on Hard those effects are reduced. I'm not sure if this will be enough to create a significant challenge though, especially with enemies who don't use buffs/status afflictions.
I also got a way to change difficulties between battles to help deal with any "wall" bosses that are too difficult. Or where the player wants to tap up the difficulty and see what they can do. Currently there's no reward for playing on a difficulty though except pride, but the game does keep track of the fights (regular and boss) won on the current difficulty.
*edit*
Also please don't limit saves. The final dungeon in FF3 might've been bearable if they just put a god damn save point somewhere.
Exactly one of my projects had a Hard mode. It was conflated with the New Game+ mode, though, and if you used the extra special bonus character, it was actually probably easier than the normal mode.
That said, the classes in Mage Duel function a little like difficulty levels.
Conjurer = Lol what a joke.
Evoker = Easy
Illusionist = Normal
Healer = Hard
VERY VERY VERY ROUGHLY, mind you.
That said, the classes in Mage Duel function a little like difficulty levels.
Conjurer = Lol what a joke.
Evoker = Easy
Illusionist = Normal
Healer = Hard
VERY VERY VERY ROUGHLY, mind you.
author=AznChipmunk link=topic=2172.msg36308#msg36308 date=1223351570
I dislike it when different modes have differing content other than difficulty.
This
bobthebobish
690
I think having a new game + with difficulty modes is a must if your changing content on harder modes. As far as the limiting save points its not as bad as you think. Really most of it is just changing it from having save points at nearly every possible tough part to maybe only having one before the boss or if its a particularly huge dungeon having one every two or three levels rather than every level.
Of course I do like to go just a bit beyond what I think I can handle as there are those nut jobs who need the masochistic difficulty before they are really having fun ;)
Of course I do like to go just a bit beyond what I think I can handle as there are those nut jobs who need the masochistic difficulty before they are really having fun ;)
Clest
0
I personally go for Save anywhere on my game since any battle you face is like a short and deadly boss battle (unless you take on certain puzzles that screw enemies so you can either skip then or beat then with a huge advantage.
I perfer a hard game that lets me save anywhere than having to redo stuff, it is not hard, it is boring as hell :P
As for dificulty: I always say that there are types of dificulty as ppl have different abilities. For example: I am quite crazy about planning and thinking, but I am slow to do so, so no matter how complex a turn based battle is, I will pass over it like a storm... now if it has some active ATB, ABS or some dexterity puzzle... I will have train madly to get by the easiest stuff.
So that is something to pounder about dificulty: who is your main target audience? What traits do your game test the most on the player? Based on that you can mess with dificulty :)
Anyway, I am thinking on something along the lines of Super Robot Wars skill point system, best dificulty changing ever IMO (at least in concept, in practice it can be easily flawed).
The skill points system works like this: The game starts on easy mode. You have a task like defeat a boss, then you get a special opnional task, like deaft that boss in 4 turns. If you just defeat the boss, you win the battle and proceed. If you win within four turns, you fulfill the extra mission and gain one skill/mastery point.
The game then will start to rate your Mission/Skill point rate and will increase dificulty to normal and then hard as you get more skill points, however if you go through too many missions without earning skill points after reaching normal or hard, you will be dropped to easy again.
I am thinking on applying something like that, just in RPG form (since SRW is actually a Tactical RPG).
I perfer a hard game that lets me save anywhere than having to redo stuff, it is not hard, it is boring as hell :P
As for dificulty: I always say that there are types of dificulty as ppl have different abilities. For example: I am quite crazy about planning and thinking, but I am slow to do so, so no matter how complex a turn based battle is, I will pass over it like a storm... now if it has some active ATB, ABS or some dexterity puzzle... I will have train madly to get by the easiest stuff.
So that is something to pounder about dificulty: who is your main target audience? What traits do your game test the most on the player? Based on that you can mess with dificulty :)
Anyway, I am thinking on something along the lines of Super Robot Wars skill point system, best dificulty changing ever IMO (at least in concept, in practice it can be easily flawed).
The skill points system works like this: The game starts on easy mode. You have a task like defeat a boss, then you get a special opnional task, like deaft that boss in 4 turns. If you just defeat the boss, you win the battle and proceed. If you win within four turns, you fulfill the extra mission and gain one skill/mastery point.
The game then will start to rate your Mission/Skill point rate and will increase dificulty to normal and then hard as you get more skill points, however if you go through too many missions without earning skill points after reaching normal or hard, you will be dropped to easy again.
I am thinking on applying something like that, just in RPG form (since SRW is actually a Tactical RPG).
yamata no orochi
184
I've been playing The World Ends With You recently, which has a very interesting implementation of difficulty setting:
Upon beginning the game, you only have access to Normal difficulty. An hour or two later, when the game starts getting more complicated and the player is challenged, Easy difficulty is unlocked. Two-thirds of the way into the game, Hard Mode is unlocked, and Ultimate Mode is unlocked after beating the game for use in New Game+.
Not only can the player change the difficulty at any time outside of battle, but he can also manually reduce his character's level to 1--this is a significant penalty, but not always crippling, as levels only affect HP totals and do not govern stats or damage dealt by the player. Therefore, the player can (in theory) breeze through the entire game on Easy mode without much trouble. BUT there are a wide variety of secret items and pins that are only dropped by enemies at certain difficulty levels, many of which are "key items" that allow you to buy special items from stores. On top of this, many of these items drop very, very rarely, to the point at which the player has to manually reduce his level in order to increase the drop rate to a more manageable percent. Therefore, casual players who just want to experience the story are able to do so on Easy or Normal mode, while dedicated players can graduate to Hard (or Ultimate) if they really want to get the most powerful items in the game. On the other hand, if a player is getting his butt kicked at the end and just wants to finish the game, he is graciously allowed to do so by downgrading the difficulty.
Obviously this wouldn't work for every game, but it's certainly an unconventional system with promise.
Upon beginning the game, you only have access to Normal difficulty. An hour or two later, when the game starts getting more complicated and the player is challenged, Easy difficulty is unlocked. Two-thirds of the way into the game, Hard Mode is unlocked, and Ultimate Mode is unlocked after beating the game for use in New Game+.
Not only can the player change the difficulty at any time outside of battle, but he can also manually reduce his character's level to 1--this is a significant penalty, but not always crippling, as levels only affect HP totals and do not govern stats or damage dealt by the player. Therefore, the player can (in theory) breeze through the entire game on Easy mode without much trouble. BUT there are a wide variety of secret items and pins that are only dropped by enemies at certain difficulty levels, many of which are "key items" that allow you to buy special items from stores. On top of this, many of these items drop very, very rarely, to the point at which the player has to manually reduce his level in order to increase the drop rate to a more manageable percent. Therefore, casual players who just want to experience the story are able to do so on Easy or Normal mode, while dedicated players can graduate to Hard (or Ultimate) if they really want to get the most powerful items in the game. On the other hand, if a player is getting his butt kicked at the end and just wants to finish the game, he is graciously allowed to do so by downgrading the difficulty.
Obviously this wouldn't work for every game, but it's certainly an unconventional system with promise.
author=yamata no orochi link=topic=2172.msg37295#msg37295 date=1223769641
I've been playing The World Ends With You recently, which has a very interesting implementation of difficulty setting:
...
Obviously this wouldn't work for every game, but it's certainly an unconventional system with promise.
Shrew Wave. Normal mode. .09% Egg Bomb drop. :< I did four-reduction battles at, like, L20 (I was L53ish) for SO LONG getting that ksnvdnsaoangjng drop when I all wanted to do was just advance to Hard that day. :< :< :< :< :< :< :< But hey, at least it owned Mrs. I-Like-To-Dash-Around Yashiro, who I fought on hard while Beat was wearing a skirt that gave him +2 combo panels. Do you know how difficult it is to earn Beat's fusion stars while dealing with an insane Yashiro blinking constantly who won't let you get through the six-seven arrows before triggering the cards?.
Yeah, I totally stole this for my current project, though. I have EDGELESS mode which is 80% monster stats (except 60% HP), with ~70% money/loot% from monsters, less EXP from bosses, and less items/money in chests. There's NORMAL mode. From there you have DIFFICULT and PAINFUL which are about 130% stronger and 200% stronger monsters, but Painful has a 400% drop rate increase. =D In a linear game with only a set number of battles + a few side-battles, you're better off to try harder difficulties, but the game is going to be balanced for Normal. Oh, higher difficulties REALLY increase the amount of stuff in chests, so yeah. Risk/reward!
I also have Story Mode and Phylomortician options; Story Mode is like ENEMIES DIE IN ONE HIT mode with ridiculous EXP/money/Drop rates, but chests are the same as Easy mode. Phylomortician is the opposite--stats are about the same as Painful mode, but the EXP/money/Drop rate is super-low. Some chests might simply not appear on Phylomortician mode. =D
I think I'm going to make shops change based on your difficulty, not sure. Since you can change the difficulty at any time, my cheater-proof method is this: the game saves your difficulty in a new variable whenever you win a battle, and uses the second variable when doling out chest rewards and whatnot. Agree/disagree?
Wow, Craze, that is an incredibly overcomplicated array of difficulty options.
If you can pull it off, more power to you I guess but like...I disagree with the idea of "story mode" because no one should hate your gameplay enough to need that mode.
If you can pull it off, more power to you I guess but like...I disagree with the idea of "story mode" because no one should hate your gameplay enough to need that mode.
author=Max McGee link=topic=2172.msg37398#msg37398 date=1223832178
I disagree with the idea of "story mode" because no one should hate your gameplay enough to need that mode.
I agree with this.
author=Craze link=topic=2172.msg37376#msg37376 date=1223806335
Phylomortician is the opposite--stats are about the same as Painful mode, but the EXP/money/Drop rate is super-low. Some chests might simply not appear on Phylomortician mode. =D
It can't be Phylomortician mode if the skill names make any sense and are completely useless (Lunatic Fringe go!)
I'm with shadowtext here.
A really good example of horrible difficulty levels:
Civilization 4.
Sweet mother of god. On higher difficulty levels (monarch and higher) they give the AI civilizations ridiculous handicaps in the later difficulties, which in turn limit the heck out of the player. They could have made the AI much more aggressive, or team up with eachother more, or raised victory requirements for the player.
But instead, they make AI civs start with way more units than you, need about 75% of the research time for techs, 75% of the production time for building stuff... talk about a cop out.
Oh boy 700 posts.
A really good example of horrible difficulty levels:
Civilization 4.
Sweet mother of god. On higher difficulty levels (monarch and higher) they give the AI civilizations ridiculous handicaps in the later difficulties, which in turn limit the heck out of the player. They could have made the AI much more aggressive, or team up with eachother more, or raised victory requirements for the player.
But instead, they make AI civs start with way more units than you, need about 75% of the research time for techs, 75% of the production time for building stuff... talk about a cop out.
Oh boy 700 posts.
Red. Holy bejeeus.
I am coding a skill/item name replacer for Phylo mode. Right now.
MODIFY: My grammar sucks.
MODIFY2: I need to add more random words, but:
I am coding a skill/item name replacer for Phylo mode. Right now.
MODIFY: My grammar sucks.
MODIFY2: I need to add more random words, but:
bobthebobish
690
You're nuts Craze.... and that is why I like your games ;)
The story mode does sound a little boring though. Perhaps leave it as some kind of hidden unlockable?
That civ 4 difficulty curve sounds a lot like how I remember warcraft 2 and its increasing difficulty. higher = more bad guys! Definitely a cop out but I think we all know making difficulty based on AI is time consuming when you have that many variables to worry about.
The story mode does sound a little boring though. Perhaps leave it as some kind of hidden unlockable?
That civ 4 difficulty curve sounds a lot like how I remember warcraft 2 and its increasing difficulty. higher = more bad guys! Definitely a cop out but I think we all know making difficulty based on AI is time consuming when you have that many variables to worry about.
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