RETHINKING ANTAGONISTS

Possibly I have read Rya's posts as more dismissive than you have. vOv

EDIT: actually, no, this was neither a mature nor funny decision.

Oh sure, you may not NEED a show-stoppingly evil central antagonist to make a good story (I've played plenty of games where the "antagonist" was a team of characters, a nebulous entity/concept, or even the protagonist's flaws themselves), but as a writer of stories, I will say this: they are fun as hell to write and just as fun to experience as a player/reader/consumer of media.

Sure, they may be overdone, but "overdone" doesn't have to mean "bad". I will eat up a cocky, unstable, unabashedly evil villain any day of the week, especially if they have an interesting story of their own. This is exactly what I tried to do (and hopefully succeeded in doing) with my own game's villain; make them someone interesting who is having so much fun being evil that the audience can't help but have fun right along with them.

But hey, I'm a bit old-fashioned in my tastes, so take my opinion with a grain of salt ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

author=suzy_cheesedreams
So there are certainly more interesting ways to have conflict in a game's story than by relying on an evil, over-the-top villain that the player is detached from but still expected to hate... how can you hate someone who is one-dimensional and corny?

Have them kill a character you like. Or step on a puppy.

author=suzy_cheesedreams
GTA V, for a character-based example: I would say that Trevor is an antagonist to Michael's protagonist, at least while you're playing from Michael's perspective. And while Trevor is rather a "mwahahahaha!!" villain, he's also a playable character whom you discover to be a complex, and no less disturbing, anti-villain. Much of the conflict in the plot is between Michael & Trevor as they begrudgingly reconcile despite their considerable grievances with each other.

I like the idea of having multiple protagonists fighting each other as much, if not more, than fighting the big bad guy. Better yet, drop the big bad guy entirely and just take control of multiple protagonists trying to accomplish their goals while preventing each other from accomplishing theirs. Everyone's the protagonist and the antagonist at the same time.

author=Red_Nova
I like the idea of having multiple protagonists fighting each other as much, if not more, than fighting the big bad guy. Better yet, drop the big bad guy entirely and just take control of multiple protagonists trying to accomplish their goals while preventing each other from accomplishing theirs. Everyone's the protagonist and the antagonist at the same time.

yes

author=Red_Nova
I like the idea of having multiple protagonists fighting each other as much, if not more, than fighting the big bad guy. Better yet, drop the big bad guy entirely and just take control of multiple protagonists trying to accomplish their goals while preventing each other from accomplishing theirs. Everyone's the protagonist and the antagonist at the same time.

This would be really interesting. You could even put a Rashomon type spin on it, where each character's viewpoint colors events.

That's why people remember Kefka and Sephiroth, but not Golbez and Ultimecia. Sephiroth killed Aeris, and Kefka destroyed a very lovable world that we'd worked hard to save. Golbez only killed Tellah who was obnoxious, and Ultimecia only destroyed FF8's world which we all hated.

But wait! Exdeath killed Galuf and was still a fucking terrible villain! Maybe there's a tree clause we're overlooking. If your villain is literally a tree in platemail, all attempts to make the player hate him are null and void, regardless of how effective they would otherwise be.

Liberty
>.>
<.<
I guess that means I should finish Dungeon Crawl one of these days, eh?
>.<;

I don't know, but you should definitely finish Celdran's Curse.

What would a game without a big villain look like, in terms of things like a final boss? Would there BE a final boss? How would y'all alter your gameplay if you were making a gam with no central villain?

I assume by games you also mean very specific games because there are simulation games and sandboxy games that don't have a final boss or a central antagonist. Games like Crusader Kings 2, Left 4 Dead and Stardew Valley or... others. (I tried examples that have a story element, obviously we have storyless games too)