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PERSONA 5, STREAMING, AND THE IMPACT OF SPOILERS IN STORY-DRIVEN GAMES
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Sailerius
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CloseI love developers who are dumb enough to allow people to stream their games. I can't even count the number of games I've been able to avoid spending money on by watching LPs of them.
turkeyDawg
195
Yeah, but if "seeing a video of the game let me know I didn't want none of that shit" is a valid reason to disallow LPs etc, then by that logic I guess Reviews (or at least negative ones) would probably be out of the picture, too.
I never understood the deal with LP copyright stuff. You'd think that all the yakking, plus the fact that a video and a video game are entirely different types of data, would be enough to classify it as "transformative".
But fuck me if I'll ever understand copyright laws.
I never understood the deal with LP copyright stuff. You'd think that all the yakking, plus the fact that a video and a video game are entirely different types of data, would be enough to classify it as "transformative".
But fuck me if I'll ever understand copyright laws.
Shinan
4314
I would say that if (like apparently in this case) the copyright holder/creator explicitly says that people shouldn't share their work (some for profit even). Then the person sharing said work shouldn't be outraged or surprised if the creator/copyright holder isn't too happy about it.
And the lists of "games I bought because of LPs" sounds a lot like the people who always show up in comments about piracy and how piracy made them consume and appreciate and spend money on the media more.
LPs have changed the gaming landscape. It's no coincidence that there are a lot of games being made that are "stream-friendly".
And the lists of "games I bought because of LPs" sounds a lot like the people who always show up in comments about piracy and how piracy made them consume and appreciate and spend money on the media more.
LPs have changed the gaming landscape. It's no coincidence that there are a lot of games being made that are "stream-friendly".
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Liberty
Every time this conversation comes up on youtube LPs, there's a plethora of different people saying they bought x or y or z game because of someone else LPing a game. Like, a LOT of people. This comes up pretty often too. I mean, sure there are people who just watch an LP and don't purchase but quite a few times they're people who weren't going to purchase the game in the first place.
You've got people who knew about a game, watched an LP and bought the game, then you've got people who knew about a game, watched an LP and didn't buy the game... Then you've got a magical third group who didn't know about the game, watched the LP that introduced them to the game, and didn't buy the game because they got the whole experience from the LP and decided slapping down $50 for X wasn't worth it.
It's rare, but I'm in the third group. Watch an LP of some games and you can pretty much just write it off as done, even if you didn't know about them in the first place.
You therefore had a prospective buyer who watched a game and didn't buy it, instead of someone who would've "never bought it in the first place". I'm pretty sure that's what companies are most worried about and something that LPers actively have a hand in ruining. A lost sale is a lost sale in the eyes of a business and that's money not worth losing. They'd rather sack an employee than lose a customer. Why do you think PR continues to be such a thing even for companies that are "too big to fail"?
Here's an example of a relatively unknown game receiving unexpected popularity by being featured on a popular Let's Play channel.
This may not be a typical example, but it is possible and it makes sense for small indie games to benefit from mainstream attention. Need we look further than Pom Gets Wi-Fi as an (admittedly extreme) example of a (or rather, the) popular Let's Player popularizing an otherwise unknown game.
Edit: Apologies for advancing the misdirected (yet related) discussion of whether LPs in general are helpful. Obfuscating a part of the whole is as obfuscating a whole of the part. Simpler put, if you take away the second part of Persona, you're censoring the Let's Play of the entirety of that whole. And that's very much like banning a certain game from being Let's Played.
This may not be a typical example, but it is possible and it makes sense for small indie games to benefit from mainstream attention. Need we look further than Pom Gets Wi-Fi as an (admittedly extreme) example of a (or rather, the) popular Let's Player popularizing an otherwise unknown game.
Edit: Apologies for advancing the misdirected (yet related) discussion of whether LPs in general are helpful. Obfuscating a part of the whole is as obfuscating a whole of the part. Simpler put, if you take away the second part of Persona, you're censoring the Let's Play of the entirety of that whole. And that's very much like banning a certain game from being Let's Played.
Alright so the groups are thus:
People who know the game, played it before and are watching. = PROFIT
People who know the game, haven't played it, watch and don't buy.
People who know the game, haven't played it, watch and buy. = PROFIT
People who don't know the game, haven't played it, watch and don't buy. ----
People who don't know the game, haven't played it, watch and buy. = PROFIT
People who know the game, were going to play it, watch and don't buy.
People who know the game, were going to play it, watch and buy. = PROFIT
People who know the game, were never going to play it, watch and don't buy. ----
People who know the game, were never going to play it, watch and buy. = PROFIT
Of those 9 conditions the company makes money off 5 of them, loses money from 2 and doesn't make or lose money from 2.
(They don't make or lose money from people who didn't know about the game because they weren't going to buy a game they don't know exists, nor those who weren't going to purchase the game even if they did know about it.)
Seems to me they come out ahead, if we count all as equal numbers (which we don't because that's not realistic.) Seeing numbers would be great, but unless someone does a study, it's all conjecture.
(Forgot the sub-category of the first which is those who buy the game, are going to watch the LP but hold off until they finish the game so they can have the fun of watching reactions to it, but doesn't really change from the first option so.)
Again, you've got games like Stardew Valley which was helped a ton by the word of mouth that LPs generated. Sure, there are some games that do hurt for LPs, but even then people STILL purchase games that they've seen played by others, even when they're crappy ones. Any publicity and all that jazz.
People who know the game, played it before and are watching. = PROFIT
People who know the game, haven't played it, watch and don't buy.
People who know the game, haven't played it, watch and buy. = PROFIT
People who don't know the game, haven't played it, watch and don't buy. ----
People who don't know the game, haven't played it, watch and buy. = PROFIT
People who know the game, were going to play it, watch and don't buy.
People who know the game, were going to play it, watch and buy. = PROFIT
People who know the game, were never going to play it, watch and don't buy. ----
People who know the game, were never going to play it, watch and buy. = PROFIT
Of those 9 conditions the company makes money off 5 of them, loses money from 2 and doesn't make or lose money from 2.
(They don't make or lose money from people who didn't know about the game because they weren't going to buy a game they don't know exists, nor those who weren't going to purchase the game even if they did know about it.)
Seems to me they come out ahead, if we count all as equal numbers (which we don't because that's not realistic.) Seeing numbers would be great, but unless someone does a study, it's all conjecture.
(Forgot the sub-category of the first which is those who buy the game, are going to watch the LP but hold off until they finish the game so they can have the fun of watching reactions to it, but doesn't really change from the first option so.)
Again, you've got games like Stardew Valley which was helped a ton by the word of mouth that LPs generated. Sure, there are some games that do hurt for LPs, but even then people STILL purchase games that they've seen played by others, even when they're crappy ones. Any publicity and all that jazz.
let's sell games, an interactive medium notorious for being potentially buggy or hard to control, solely by publisher-chosen still images and video clips
yeah this is why demos and lps and streaming exists.
and, like tb said in his recent video about this, if a person i like is streaming, i'm gonna watch it because i like that person. all the better if it's "your" (dev name here) game.
yeah this is why demos and lps and streaming exists.
and, like tb said in his recent video about this, if a person i like is streaming, i'm gonna watch it because i like that person. all the better if it's "your" (dev name here) game.
turkeyDawg
195
author=Craze
yeah this is why demos and lps and streaming exists.
And demos don't even seem to be that common outside of XBLA titles
and the demos that do exist often do a terrible job of demonstrating the game
...
yeah, buying games feels like Russian Roulette sometimes lol
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=turkeyDawg
yeah, buying games feels like Russian Roulette sometimes lol
I'm sure that's just due to the shift in responsibility. You can buy all the games you want when someone else (your grand/parents) is paying for them, but now that it's coming out of your wallet, it's a risk.
Nothing has really changed.
With LPs it kinda has. Now you can see the content and decide "Yeah, that looks like shit actually. Nevermind." vs "Oh, that actually looks more fun than I thought it would. I'm definitely getting that now!"
I mean, it's not the same as playing for yourself - there's more than a few games on that list I provided where I regretted the purchase even after seeing an LP, or it didn't hold up as well as I thought it would and dropped it after a while, but still, they got bought and I'm not complaining about them because I knew what they were like a bit, going in. I'd seen the gameplay and story and understood what I was buying. That's on me for making the purchase after seeing it. But when game companies give images and videos that are deliberately giving a wrong idea about what the game holds, then wasting cash on a game that isn't what you thought? That's an issue and they should be held accountable for that false advertising, but they won't. :/
It's a muddled system.
I mean, it's not the same as playing for yourself - there's more than a few games on that list I provided where I regretted the purchase even after seeing an LP, or it didn't hold up as well as I thought it would and dropped it after a while, but still, they got bought and I'm not complaining about them because I knew what they were like a bit, going in. I'd seen the gameplay and story and understood what I was buying. That's on me for making the purchase after seeing it. But when game companies give images and videos that are deliberately giving a wrong idea about what the game holds, then wasting cash on a game that isn't what you thought? That's an issue and they should be held accountable for that false advertising, but they won't. :/
It's a muddled system.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Let's also not forget that video games always have been and always will be glitchy and broken as shit, regardless of the LPer and how responsible they are at providing the truth behind the game.
This series is living proof.
This series is living proof.
If i see an lp of a game, i find no point in owning the game myself. Specially if it's a story driven game, since i already experienced the game through the hands of somebody else. I frankly find the notion of people wanting to buy a game of that kind after they watched a full lp of it idealistic at best.
And yet, it happens. Often. Sometimes you just gotta experience something for yourself. It does depend on the LPer too - some people can tease a bit when it comes to gameplay. Things like "Oh, there's a quest over there, I'll do it later, oops forgot" and as a watcher you wanted to find out what that quest was about because it sounded interesting. So it piques your interest. Add in a lot of those moments and you want to play the game and see the things they missed.
Of course, there's also the whole "It looks like so much fun, I wanna play too!" thing.
Of course, there's also the whole "It looks like so much fun, I wanna play too!" thing.
Didn't Persona 5 only allow LPs to a specific point of the game? 7/7 or something. I don't know, that makes sense to me from a promotional standpoint. You don't need to LP the full game to show people that it's great go buy it.
I'm actually with Mirak on this one since I also find it often how people don't buy great games because they've seen it all (story driven ones especially). Like if Cafe 0's entirety had been LP'd I don't know if I'd like to buy it per se even if I liked it. It's one of those games just ""playing"" it once is enough.
There's no denying it has helped indies but there's also always the risk of it tanking your sales -- and otome game developers have seen this too. I tend to like LPs on games relatively unknown than commercial games but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm actually with Mirak on this one since I also find it often how people don't buy great games because they've seen it all (story driven ones especially). Like if Cafe 0's entirety had been LP'd I don't know if I'd like to buy it per se even if I liked it. It's one of those games just ""playing"" it once is enough.
There's no denying it has helped indies but there's also always the risk of it tanking your sales -- and otome game developers have seen this too. I tend to like LPs on games relatively unknown than commercial games but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Shinan
4314
I thought we all agreed that the takedowns were legal not illegal. They just weren't very cool.
Taking down the videos - fine. That's their property.
Copyright striking channels deliberately to get the CHANNELS taken down completely? Not fine.
Not illegal, technically, but definitely pretty goddamn pathetic.
Copyright striking channels deliberately to get the CHANNELS taken down completely? Not fine.
Not illegal, technically, but definitely pretty goddamn pathetic.
also, a good lp or whatever is transformative work. a video of somebody doing that dragon cancer without any insight or reactions from the player would be takedownable, but somebody posting a walkthrough of whatever happens on 7/8 and bringing in their own thoughts (especially if they could connect it to other persona games or any other media to form analysis) would be legal
the_dark_id's LPs show you everything in a game. if you read/watch his coverage of NieR: Gestalt, you'll learn so much about Cavia (the devs), the Drakengard series that it's a sequel to, and why certain things are happening that I'd argue it's completely transformative. There's even (marked as such) additional dialogue and gags and art added by the_dark_id and the somethingawful forum users.
or you could keep making one-liners supporting the greedy corporations!
i'd like to insert a quick "fuck ninty" while i'm at it, thanks
the_dark_id's LPs show you everything in a game. if you read/watch his coverage of NieR: Gestalt, you'll learn so much about Cavia (the devs), the Drakengard series that it's a sequel to, and why certain things are happening that I'd argue it's completely transformative. There's even (marked as such) additional dialogue and gags and art added by the_dark_id and the somethingawful forum users.
or you could keep making one-liners supporting the greedy corporations!
i'd like to insert a quick "fuck ninty" while i'm at it, thanks
Shinan
4314
Well... Considering that stuff like fanfiction and fanart is illegal I'm not sure exactly how transformative LPs are when it comes to legality.
http://inyourwritemind.setonhill.edu/yes-fanworks-are-illegal-harsh-truths-about-copyright-fair-use/
LPs are a bit like putting up a movie and then dubbing over it or making your own commentary track. You could just make the commentary track available without the copyright infringement of also providing the video. But LPers tend to also provide the video.
I mean many game publishers and creators welcome LPs and fanart and whatnot but occasionally a creator might go "please don't". Now sure it is a bit of a dick move sometimes to restrict what people do with your creative work. But it's also sort of a dick move to share a person's creative work when they have explicitly told people not to do it. (Like stealing graphics from some other RM game to use in your own, I'm sure they new game is also "transformative")
There's basically three ways a creator deals with these kinds of things they 1) welcome it and encourage it 2) they turn a blind eye and pretend it doesn't exist or 3) they actively discourage it.
I mean... I know I come off as bit of a contrarian or whatnot. But I also think that streamers and let's players shouldn't start thinking of being able to stream or LP as a right, when it's just something they are allowed to do. Personally I like fan engagement and stuff like that and I think it's silly of people to hunt down and shut up people who share and enjoy their work. But I also feel a bit iffy about people who make money off it. Being a fan and doing something for fun is one thing. But stealing other people's work and making money off of it... I've always found that a bit... I don't know. It's just not very cool. At the very least have permission when making money off of it.
http://inyourwritemind.setonhill.edu/yes-fanworks-are-illegal-harsh-truths-about-copyright-fair-use/
LPs are a bit like putting up a movie and then dubbing over it or making your own commentary track. You could just make the commentary track available without the copyright infringement of also providing the video. But LPers tend to also provide the video.
I mean many game publishers and creators welcome LPs and fanart and whatnot but occasionally a creator might go "please don't". Now sure it is a bit of a dick move sometimes to restrict what people do with your creative work. But it's also sort of a dick move to share a person's creative work when they have explicitly told people not to do it. (Like stealing graphics from some other RM game to use in your own, I'm sure they new game is also "transformative")
There's basically three ways a creator deals with these kinds of things they 1) welcome it and encourage it 2) they turn a blind eye and pretend it doesn't exist or 3) they actively discourage it.
I mean... I know I come off as bit of a contrarian or whatnot. But I also think that streamers and let's players shouldn't start thinking of being able to stream or LP as a right, when it's just something they are allowed to do. Personally I like fan engagement and stuff like that and I think it's silly of people to hunt down and shut up people who share and enjoy their work. But I also feel a bit iffy about people who make money off it. Being a fan and doing something for fun is one thing. But stealing other people's work and making money off of it... I've always found that a bit... I don't know. It's just not very cool. At the very least have permission when making money off of it.
