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WHAT TO DO AND NOT TO DO IN RPG GAMES!
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CloseHave you ever had high hopes in an RPG game, but was soon disappointed to find the plot was the same hero fighting evil due to vengeance, or being the chosen one? Or maybe the battle system was God awful, or the characters were flat and unrealistic. Maybe even the plot had too much going on, or there wasn't enough details and you were left hanging with not enough info?
I've made this thread to ask people if you could give advice on what to do, and what not to do when making story driven rpg games to make sure the game doesn't end up being what some would call a disappointment. I'm not saying cliche is bad, but a lot of people obviously prefer originality and creativity which is hard to find now a days, since so much has already been done.
Since I'm making my own story driven rpg game and wanted advice, I decided to ask people what they thought and perhaps others could come and get advice as well. I will put a list below that I will fill up so it's easier to see it all without looking all over the thread. I haven't put anything below because my job was to create the thread, not spew ideas.
What To Do:
N/A
What Not To Do:
N/A
I've made this thread to ask people if you could give advice on what to do, and what not to do when making story driven rpg games to make sure the game doesn't end up being what some would call a disappointment. I'm not saying cliche is bad, but a lot of people obviously prefer originality and creativity which is hard to find now a days, since so much has already been done.
Since I'm making my own story driven rpg game and wanted advice, I decided to ask people what they thought and perhaps others could come and get advice as well. I will put a list below that I will fill up so it's easier to see it all without looking all over the thread. I haven't put anything below because my job was to create the thread, not spew ideas.
What To Do:
N/A
What Not To Do:
N/A
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
TBH making a list of do/don't tropes isn't much better than going with the usual cliches. You're also going a little broad with the topic, covering story, characterization, and gameplay all at once, when there's reams and reams of advice on each one individually.
But since I love to natter on about narratives, I'll play your game. :V
What to do:
Consume lots of different kinds of media. Not just games. Not just geek stuff. Try a wide variety of popular and unpopular works. Think about what worked well in their stories, and why. Think about what didn't work well in the stories, and why. Think about how you could adapt them to other narrative forms- a book to a game, a game to a movie- and what changes you'd have to make to make that work.
Read/listen to creators talking about how they made what they made, and why they chose to do things the way they did.
Read/listen to/watch critics of various media. Think about their opinions, and why they hold those opinions. Think about how they align with your own opinions, or how they differ. Think about why that difference exists.
After doing all this, you're hopefully getting a good grasp of how narratives work in different media, and why certain things are common in certain media/genres. This is a really important foundation if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of storytelling in any medium, but I think it's extra important in gam mak because it's a really, really new form of storytelling, so hasn't had the opportunity to stretch its legs, so to speak, and everyone's flailing about trying to figure this shit out.
I'll most likely post more on this but I super need a shower so I'll leave it at this, which TBH is probably the best thing to start with, since all that input there will ideally get the creative and critical juices flowing naturally.
But since I love to natter on about narratives, I'll play your game. :V
What to do:
Consume lots of different kinds of media. Not just games. Not just geek stuff. Try a wide variety of popular and unpopular works. Think about what worked well in their stories, and why. Think about what didn't work well in the stories, and why. Think about how you could adapt them to other narrative forms- a book to a game, a game to a movie- and what changes you'd have to make to make that work.
Read/listen to creators talking about how they made what they made, and why they chose to do things the way they did.
Read/listen to/watch critics of various media. Think about their opinions, and why they hold those opinions. Think about how they align with your own opinions, or how they differ. Think about why that difference exists.
After doing all this, you're hopefully getting a good grasp of how narratives work in different media, and why certain things are common in certain media/genres. This is a really important foundation if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of storytelling in any medium, but I think it's extra important in gam mak because it's a really, really new form of storytelling, so hasn't had the opportunity to stretch its legs, so to speak, and everyone's flailing about trying to figure this shit out.
I'll most likely post more on this but I super need a shower so I'll leave it at this, which TBH is probably the best thing to start with, since all that input there will ideally get the creative and critical juices flowing naturally.
I don't quite see how this isn't any better than making cliche tropes, and I'm not saying cliche tropes are always bad. I was asking people what they'd like to see in newer games because I like to see others opinions and how they feel, so I'm not sure exactly what you mean.
Thank you for your input.
Thank you for your input.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Your OP is asking for advice, not preferences, though.
ETA: The reason that asking for non-cliche tropes is no better than asking for cliche tropes is that in both cases you're not really thinking about why those tropes arose in the first place- their inspirations, what made the creators choose them over anything else, and how they worked with the medium.
If you're not actively engaging yourself in the process, if you're leaving the decisions to other people, then your work is almost guaranteed to be equally as bland and unsatisfying as one that went with the easy cliches, because in both cases you're not doing the important part of writing.
ETA: The reason that asking for non-cliche tropes is no better than asking for cliche tropes is that in both cases you're not really thinking about why those tropes arose in the first place- their inspirations, what made the creators choose them over anything else, and how they worked with the medium.
If you're not actively engaging yourself in the process, if you're leaving the decisions to other people, then your work is almost guaranteed to be equally as bland and unsatisfying as one that went with the easy cliches, because in both cases you're not doing the important part of writing.
Blind
2262
Hm, you may want to edit the title of this topic, because a list of clichés isn't the same thing as "what not to do in an RPG."
I found this page to be a pretty useful/simple list of jRPG tropes. These have probably been hammered-down to death at this point. XD
Here are a couple that stuck out to me:
Hey, I Know You!
You will accumulate at least three of these obligatory party members:
The spunky princess who is rebelling against her royal parent and is in love with the hero.
The demure, soft-spoken female mage and healing magic specialist who is not only in love with the hero, but is also the last survivor of an ancient race.
The tough-as-nails female warrior who is not in love with the hero (note that this is the only female character in the game who is not in love with the hero and will therefore be indicated as such by having a spectacular scar, a missing eye, cyborg limbs or some other physical deformity -- see The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly Rule.)
The achingly beautiful gothy swordsman who is riven by inner tragedy.
The big, tough, angry guy who, deep down, is a total softy.
The hero's best friend, who is actually much cooler than the hero.
The grim, selfish mercenary who over the course of the game learns what it means to really care about other people.
The character who is actually a spy for the bad guys but will instantly switch to your side when you find out about it.
The weird bonus character who requires a bizarre series of side quests to make them effective (with the ultimate result that no player ever uses this character if it can be avoided.)
The nauseatingly cute mascot who is useless in all battles.
No! My beloved peasant village!"
The hero's home town, city, slum, or planet will usually be annihilated in a spectacular fashion before the end of the game, and often before the end of the opening scene.
Thinking With The Wrong Head (Hiro Rule)
No matter what she's accused of doing or how mysterious her origins are, the hero will always be ready to fight to the death for any girl he met three seconds ago.
Cubic Zirconium Corollary
The aforementioned mysterious girl will be wearing a pendant that will ultimately prove to be the key to either saving the world or destroying it.
Logan's Run Rule
RPG characters are young. Very young. The average age seems to be 15, unless the character is a decorated and battle-hardened soldier, in which case he might even be as old as 18. Such teenagers often have skills with multiple weapons and magic, years of experience, and never ever worry about their parents telling them to come home from adventuring before bedtime. By contrast, characters more than twenty-two years old will cheerfully refer to themselves as washed-up old fogies and be eager to make room for the younger generation.
---
With that being said, I think tropes and stereotypes are perfectly fine to use (and to an extent, probably unavoidable) if the developer makes some effort to subvert/enhance them. I counted probably at least a dozen in that list in my own game.
Another option (something like Hero's Realm comes to mind, but there are other examples) is to intentionally imitate the genre conventions - a video-game-version of "pastiche." A pastiche is a work of visual art, literature, theatre, or music that imitates the style or character of the work of one or more other artists. Unlike parody, pastiche celebrates, rather than mocks, the work it imitates.
I found this page to be a pretty useful/simple list of jRPG tropes. These have probably been hammered-down to death at this point. XD
Here are a couple that stuck out to me:
Hey, I Know You!
You will accumulate at least three of these obligatory party members:
The spunky princess who is rebelling against her royal parent and is in love with the hero.
The demure, soft-spoken female mage and healing magic specialist who is not only in love with the hero, but is also the last survivor of an ancient race.
The tough-as-nails female warrior who is not in love with the hero (note that this is the only female character in the game who is not in love with the hero and will therefore be indicated as such by having a spectacular scar, a missing eye, cyborg limbs or some other physical deformity -- see The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly Rule.)
The achingly beautiful gothy swordsman who is riven by inner tragedy.
The big, tough, angry guy who, deep down, is a total softy.
The hero's best friend, who is actually much cooler than the hero.
The grim, selfish mercenary who over the course of the game learns what it means to really care about other people.
The character who is actually a spy for the bad guys but will instantly switch to your side when you find out about it.
The weird bonus character who requires a bizarre series of side quests to make them effective (with the ultimate result that no player ever uses this character if it can be avoided.)
The nauseatingly cute mascot who is useless in all battles.
No! My beloved peasant village!"
The hero's home town, city, slum, or planet will usually be annihilated in a spectacular fashion before the end of the game, and often before the end of the opening scene.
Thinking With The Wrong Head (Hiro Rule)
No matter what she's accused of doing or how mysterious her origins are, the hero will always be ready to fight to the death for any girl he met three seconds ago.
Cubic Zirconium Corollary
The aforementioned mysterious girl will be wearing a pendant that will ultimately prove to be the key to either saving the world or destroying it.
Logan's Run Rule
RPG characters are young. Very young. The average age seems to be 15, unless the character is a decorated and battle-hardened soldier, in which case he might even be as old as 18. Such teenagers often have skills with multiple weapons and magic, years of experience, and never ever worry about their parents telling them to come home from adventuring before bedtime. By contrast, characters more than twenty-two years old will cheerfully refer to themselves as washed-up old fogies and be eager to make room for the younger generation.
---
With that being said, I think tropes and stereotypes are perfectly fine to use (and to an extent, probably unavoidable) if the developer makes some effort to subvert/enhance them. I counted probably at least a dozen in that list in my own game.
Another option (something like Hero's Realm comes to mind, but there are other examples) is to intentionally imitate the genre conventions - a video-game-version of "pastiche." A pastiche is a work of visual art, literature, theatre, or music that imitates the style or character of the work of one or more other artists. Unlike parody, pastiche celebrates, rather than mocks, the work it imitates.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
I agree with Sooz in that this is a reeeeeaaaally broad topic to cover. What would be considered a disappointment varies wildly from player to player, and a single list of dos and don'ts isn't really going to cut it as an objective collection of advice.
Since you said you're making a story-driven RPG, I'm just going to throw out a few personal preferences on the practice of tying story together with gameplay. What will be on my "do" list can be on other people's "don't" or "meh" lists, but that's kinda my point.
Do:
Tie your character's gameplay abilities to their personality.
Having a character's personality influence their abilities gives them more flavor rather than just a battle role. For example: a character with a sardonic personality would probably utilize debuffs in battle by mocking/taunting enemies. If two or more of your characters have a strong chemistry together, all the better! Either allow for a combination attack, or activate a passive bonus if they are both in the battle party.
If you're struggling to come up with new abilities, then that's a decent sign you need to develop the character's personality a bit more. This helps you take care of the writing and game design at once. An idea would be to...
Write flaws into your characters.
I don't mean silly quirks like being afraid of ghosts (although that's fine to include if you want). I mean crippling, tragic flaws like being greedy or jealous. Make those flaws a part of the character's identity, and show how (or even if) your characters work through them. Characters making the right choices at the right times leads to very, VERY boring stories.
In my current game, for example, I have a character who is cripplingly afraid of being alone. Because of this, if she is the only character alive in the party during battle, she will be inflicted with a fear ailment, penalizing her offense but raising her defense.
Think "Hero vs. Hero."
Every character has goals to accomplish. Instead of something so blatantly evil like world destruction, what if the antagonist was trying to save the world in a way that is irreconcilable with the protagonist? What if the "antagonist" was a party member in the first half of the game? Giving players control over characters develops a bond between player and player character. The longer players control the character, the more that bond grows. An event that wrests control from the player damages that bond in a way that no other media can ever hope to accomplish.
Multiple endings
It's an interactive medium, and so players will be interacting with it in a different number of ways. Set up ending conditions that depend on a player's BEHAVIOR, not static choices, to have the story's outcome feel more personal to them. Silent Hill 2 is a beautiful example of this.
Don't:
Be afraid to kill your characters.
When you get a new party member, it's a good assumption that they will stay with you for the rest of the game. Strip away that plot armor and make your characters vulnerable to death via plot twists. That way, players will be genuinely afraid whenever the party is in serious danger.
Combine this with the first point on the DO list and you can connect that feeling of loss with the player, not just the characters. Having the only tank character in the game die due to plot purposes means that the player feels that loss, as well. Like I said above, taking away control of a character after the player has gotten used to them leaves an emptiness behind, made even larger depending on how much the player liked the character.
And for the love of god, don't replace the fallen character with a functionally identical one later. I'm looking at you, Legend of Dragoon.
Avoid "true" or "canon" endings.
Going back to my Do list of having multiple endings, don't pick one of them to be default ending. It really cheapens the experience for me knowing that I went through a 30-50 hour RPG but got an ending that isn't considered the "true" ending. They ALL should be equally as valid.
While I'm on this topic, I consider "bad" endings to be in a similar category, though not nearly as offensive. It's great that knowing you failed (or met) certain requirements to turn the story tragic, the idea that I can say "oh well, just reload and try again" makes it no different from a game over. If you're going to have a bad ending, give it the same level of treatment as every other valid ending you write.
Forget you're making a game.
This may seem obvious, but games like Metal Gear Solid 4 and Beyond: Two Souls REEEEEAAAALLLLY like to spent time with cinematics.
You can get away with lots of dialogue if they have interactive elements to them, like dialogue choices or an option to ask for more information, like the Phoenix Wright games. The idea is that you want to keep the player engaged in gameplay, not exclusively reading text.
Since you said you're making a story-driven RPG, I'm just going to throw out a few personal preferences on the practice of tying story together with gameplay. What will be on my "do" list can be on other people's "don't" or "meh" lists, but that's kinda my point.
Do:
Tie your character's gameplay abilities to their personality.
Having a character's personality influence their abilities gives them more flavor rather than just a battle role. For example: a character with a sardonic personality would probably utilize debuffs in battle by mocking/taunting enemies. If two or more of your characters have a strong chemistry together, all the better! Either allow for a combination attack, or activate a passive bonus if they are both in the battle party.
If you're struggling to come up with new abilities, then that's a decent sign you need to develop the character's personality a bit more. This helps you take care of the writing and game design at once. An idea would be to...
Write flaws into your characters.
I don't mean silly quirks like being afraid of ghosts (although that's fine to include if you want). I mean crippling, tragic flaws like being greedy or jealous. Make those flaws a part of the character's identity, and show how (or even if) your characters work through them. Characters making the right choices at the right times leads to very, VERY boring stories.
In my current game, for example, I have a character who is cripplingly afraid of being alone. Because of this, if she is the only character alive in the party during battle, she will be inflicted with a fear ailment, penalizing her offense but raising her defense.
Think "Hero vs. Hero."
Every character has goals to accomplish. Instead of something so blatantly evil like world destruction, what if the antagonist was trying to save the world in a way that is irreconcilable with the protagonist? What if the "antagonist" was a party member in the first half of the game? Giving players control over characters develops a bond between player and player character. The longer players control the character, the more that bond grows. An event that wrests control from the player damages that bond in a way that no other media can ever hope to accomplish.
Multiple endings
It's an interactive medium, and so players will be interacting with it in a different number of ways. Set up ending conditions that depend on a player's BEHAVIOR, not static choices, to have the story's outcome feel more personal to them. Silent Hill 2 is a beautiful example of this.
Don't:
Be afraid to kill your characters.
When you get a new party member, it's a good assumption that they will stay with you for the rest of the game. Strip away that plot armor and make your characters vulnerable to death via plot twists. That way, players will be genuinely afraid whenever the party is in serious danger.
Combine this with the first point on the DO list and you can connect that feeling of loss with the player, not just the characters. Having the only tank character in the game die due to plot purposes means that the player feels that loss, as well. Like I said above, taking away control of a character after the player has gotten used to them leaves an emptiness behind, made even larger depending on how much the player liked the character.
And for the love of god, don't replace the fallen character with a functionally identical one later. I'm looking at you, Legend of Dragoon.
Avoid "true" or "canon" endings.
Going back to my Do list of having multiple endings, don't pick one of them to be default ending. It really cheapens the experience for me knowing that I went through a 30-50 hour RPG but got an ending that isn't considered the "true" ending. They ALL should be equally as valid.
While I'm on this topic, I consider "bad" endings to be in a similar category, though not nearly as offensive. It's great that knowing you failed (or met) certain requirements to turn the story tragic, the idea that I can say "oh well, just reload and try again" makes it no different from a game over. If you're going to have a bad ending, give it the same level of treatment as every other valid ending you write.
Forget you're making a game.
This may seem obvious, but games like Metal Gear Solid 4 and Beyond: Two Souls REEEEEAAAALLLLY like to spent time with cinematics.
You can get away with lots of dialogue if they have interactive elements to them, like dialogue choices or an option to ask for more information, like the Phoenix Wright games. The idea is that you want to keep the player engaged in gameplay, not exclusively reading text.
While avoiding, messing with or even deliberately using well-known tropes can all be valid approaches depending on what you want to accomplish, I personally think there's only one true golden rule when it comes to game design in general:
Don't:
Bore your players.
As with all forms of art and methods of communication known to humanity, the recipient can only perceive what you give to them. They can't look inside your head and read your thoughts to understand why a certain scene or bit of lore is actually really cool or means so much to you. All they have to work with is the final product. And especially in the interactive medium of video games, trying the player's patience is an easy way to lose them as an audience entirely.
Red_Nova already mentioned this issue. Save your epic intro cinematic until a few hours into the game, when the player has already established a connection with your work through actual interaction with the game's world.
If you use a turn-based battle system, don't start the player out with only the attack command and one skill that does nothing apart from dealing more damage. Instead of saving the best for later, show off what makes your game exciting and engaging immediately, when the player might still be unsure whether it's worth it to even keep playing.
Don't force your player to walk through large endless maps with nothing to do and see. Even (or especially) in art-focused exploration games, the player wants to experience for themselves what you have in store for them. Let them see the world you've crafted for them and give them a chance to start caring before you dump more plot or lore about it onto them.
I could go on like this. Sure, you obviously can't please everyone, and the game's genre expectations and target audience can completely change what would be considered "boring." But the main point is, if at any point there's a considerable risk your players might start to feel like your game is wasting their time, you're entering dangerous territory. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't have lengthy cutscenes or sections with less intense gameplay. But in a way, you first have to earn your players' trust, so that they know this isn't all your game has to offer.
Don't:
Bore your players.
As with all forms of art and methods of communication known to humanity, the recipient can only perceive what you give to them. They can't look inside your head and read your thoughts to understand why a certain scene or bit of lore is actually really cool or means so much to you. All they have to work with is the final product. And especially in the interactive medium of video games, trying the player's patience is an easy way to lose them as an audience entirely.
Red_Nova already mentioned this issue. Save your epic intro cinematic until a few hours into the game, when the player has already established a connection with your work through actual interaction with the game's world.
If you use a turn-based battle system, don't start the player out with only the attack command and one skill that does nothing apart from dealing more damage. Instead of saving the best for later, show off what makes your game exciting and engaging immediately, when the player might still be unsure whether it's worth it to even keep playing.
Don't force your player to walk through large endless maps with nothing to do and see. Even (or especially) in art-focused exploration games, the player wants to experience for themselves what you have in store for them. Let them see the world you've crafted for them and give them a chance to start caring before you dump more plot or lore about it onto them.
I could go on like this. Sure, you obviously can't please everyone, and the game's genre expectations and target audience can completely change what would be considered "boring." But the main point is, if at any point there's a considerable risk your players might start to feel like your game is wasting their time, you're entering dangerous territory. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't have lengthy cutscenes or sections with less intense gameplay. But in a way, you first have to earn your players' trust, so that they know this isn't all your game has to offer.
Sooz
TBH making a list of do/don't tropes isn't much better than going with the usual cliches. You're also going a little broad with the topic, covering story, characterization, and gameplay all at once, when there's reams and reams of advice on each one individually.
also why is this
i have nothing to add because something like this doesn't really enhance the creative medium any. even the 'hot tips' don't do anything but add arbitrary limitations
Darken
3952
http://garethrees.org/2007/10/06/400-rules/ I think about this article whenever I hear there's a list of things to do/dont in game design (or even almost anything creative). The unsatisfying answer to all of this is: it depends on what you're trying to do.
Blind
RPG tropes master list
One of my games actually has the line, "You fools! That was a load-bearing boss!"
I'm going to have to agree with Sooz on this. Tropes are used because they're so reliable. They wouldn't be tropes otherwise. Overusing tropes is probably bad, but anyone who actually writes these or makes these games will eventually have to come to accept that do/don't lists for tropes are totally subjective and ultimately vacuous.
If threads like this weren't so common on RMN, I probably wouldn't have even chimed in, but they are common and I think people really need to realize that these lists are, at best, minor suggestions, and at worst, wasted bandwidth. These lists are only really useful when we see them in the form that Blind linked to. It's useful to know these tropes, and in the case of that list, humorous, but do/don't shouldn't apply. If it works it works. If it doesn't, find an alternative. Only the writer/maker can decide and only the reader/player will know for sure.
Okay, guys. I get it. It's a broad topic, it's been asked before, there are different opinions, can't please everybody. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough or maybe I was expecting something different, I've already said tropes aren't bad I just know some people like something different and I wanted opinions on what they think they should do. I'm tired of keeping up with this thread, so I'll just have an admin lock it or something.
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