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IS AI GENERATED ART ETHICAL?
Posts
Gourd_Clae
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Closeauthor=DarkenI did consider kefka before landing on sephiroth lmao
back in the day you'd be shown the door for calling someone kefka
Shinan
4314
I just want to say that talent is meaningless in the big picture. It might give someone a head start and thus an incentive to try something out. But once someone has put in the time to learn something properly there's no difference between the person who started with talent and the person who learned it.
A lot of this is wrong. Some of it are outdated ideas. (it's basically the archeological meme of "we don't know what this is, therefore it must have been used in religious rituals") Some of it are misrepresentations of what religion is. Some of it even contradicts itself, especially the caveats that all art is religious OR depicting rich people.
Saying cave paintings depicting hunting grounds are definitely religious seems very off. Sure the images have a certain divine power, but there are also plenty of theories suggesting they are utilitarian. ("here be dragons"/"here be plenty of game")
The mere mention of calling paleolithic religious practices as "worshiping Gaia" when that whole "gaiaworship" idea is pretty much a neopagan construct (not that Gaia wasn't a greek goddess. But she wasn't one of the really big ones) also sounds a bit like misunderstanding or misremembering the studies.
And calling female Greek statues "rare" is also just factually incorrect.
Did you study art and the history of art? Because I did.
I know it's not enjoyable to listen, but art was born of religion. Emphasis on "was". Times have changed and art changed with them. Religion is no longer as prevalent and therefore art now exists in function of the artist.
The ancient cave painters worshipped Gaia (or women in general for having the gift of giving life), represented as small statuettes of fertile women. This was before they stopped worshipping women and started worshipping men through the use of mehnirs (AKA giant erect penises).
Wall painting also represented religious rituals in addition to big hunts (which can be argued to be part of the rituals).
Later on, when religion took over the world, there were only 2 types of art, the large majority was depicting bible scenes (heaven, hell, etc) to impress the faithfuls and the rest was depictions of rather rich people.
Greece worshipped the male body, so what do we get? A ton of male nude statues (their depiction of the female body was rare) and get this, most of the depicted males were religious figures (Zeus, Hercules, etc) or rich folk.
A lot of this is wrong. Some of it are outdated ideas. (it's basically the archeological meme of "we don't know what this is, therefore it must have been used in religious rituals") Some of it are misrepresentations of what religion is. Some of it even contradicts itself, especially the caveats that all art is religious OR depicting rich people.
Saying cave paintings depicting hunting grounds are definitely religious seems very off. Sure the images have a certain divine power, but there are also plenty of theories suggesting they are utilitarian. ("here be dragons"/"here be plenty of game")
The mere mention of calling paleolithic religious practices as "worshiping Gaia" when that whole "gaiaworship" idea is pretty much a neopagan construct (not that Gaia wasn't a greek goddess. But she wasn't one of the really big ones) also sounds a bit like misunderstanding or misremembering the studies.
And calling female Greek statues "rare" is also just factually incorrect.
author=Gourd_Clae
@iddalai I'm just going to drop the convo and say sorry! My intention was not to call you a fascist. My thought process was that if I held a view shared by bad people, I'd want somebody to point it out so that I could think on it more closely. That might have been silly since I don't know you very well, so you didn't know my intentions. In the future, if you want to avoid upsetting people, talking about "not wanting to harm ppls egos" comes across as arrogant while denigrating a whole form of art you don't seem to have experience with comes across as close-minded and mean-spirited. I'm sure you're a lovely person who is neither of those things, and you didn't deserve to be made to feel bad either way.
I don't know how to react to this, because I seriously don't understand if you're just mocking me.
In other news, I hope you realise that a view shared by bad people doesn't necessarily make the view itself wrong. We must learn to separate things.
I mentioned egos because I knew it was something people wouldn't like to hear. Not announcing it seemed somehow worse. Then again, it was silly of me since no one here really knows me that well either. Point taken, thank you.
I'm sure I'm not a lovely person, but I'm far from some of the things I've been called around here.
I didn't mention this because I thought it would sound even worse as a way of excuse, but I do have quite a bit of experience with both digital and non-digital art and with many other artists of both worlds, which is where I based my point of view.
I'll drop the convo too.
author=Shinan
I just want to say that talent is meaningless in the big picture. It might give someone a head start and thus an incentive to try something out. But once someone has put in the time to learn something properly there's no difference between the person who started with talent and the person who learned it.
I completely disagree.
author=Shinan
A lot of this is wrong. Some of it are outdated ideas. (it's basically the archeological meme of "we don't know what this is, therefore it must have been used in religious rituals") Some of it are misrepresentations of what religion is. Some of it even contradicts itself, especially the caveats that all art is religious OR depicting rich people.
Saying cave paintings depicting hunting grounds are definitely religious seems very off. Sure the images have a certain divine power, but there are also plenty of theories suggesting they are utilitarian. ("here be dragons"/"here be plenty of game")
The mere mention of calling paleolithic religious practices as "worshiping Gaia" when that whole "gaiaworship" idea is pretty much a neopagan construct (not that Gaia wasn't a greek goddess. But she wasn't one of the really big ones) also sounds a bit like misunderstanding or misremembering the studies.
And calling female Greek statues "rare" is also just factually incorrect.
Not wrong, simply rewritten in modern days. Now, if those rewrites are accurate or not, that's a whole different issue.
I see how you'd say it's a contradiction, but about the rich people paintings, they too were connected to religion, the creation of said paintings was involved with the church and social hierarchy (the higher you were the closer to the church, permission was needed at times or to leave an image of the rich person who paid for a new church remodelling as a sort of honor, some rich people events that the church wanted to preserve for propaganda reasons).
My point is that it was mainly commissioned religious depictions and the rest was rich people, i.e.: not from the soul of the artist.
I said big hunt depictions could be argued to be of religious nature, I didn't say they definitely were religious.
Plenty of theories suggesting they are utilitarian as there are plenty of theories suggesting they are of religious nature.
The Gaia I mentioned wasn't the greek one. But I'll grant you that I may be off on the Gaia thing!
Though, you may simply replace Gaia worship with woman worship (which was practically the same at the time).
Maybe rare was the wrong word then, but there were many more male statues by comparison.
But I get your drift, you just wanted to call me outdated ;)
Having said that...
I give up! You guys win, I have no more willpower to continue down this road. CONGLATURATIONss!!11!!1
You sure showed that awful meanie! How dare he question your status quo!? You put him in his place! Go you!
This thread is a riot. As for my personal final opinion on the matter of whether AI is ethical or not? I hate to say it, but it depends! As with so many things in life, it's how a tool is used that tells you if it's unethical or not. A knife is not inherently unethical, but boy can you do unethical things with it, and I feel the same applies to AI "art".
Having said that, enjoy the rest of the thread y'all! I'm peacing out.
And just to be an ass, because why not, Gourd, Hitler was a big animal friend and was against smoking. Bad people can share the same values with good people, doesn't mean you now have to stop having those values.
Having said that, enjoy the rest of the thread y'all! I'm peacing out.
Shinan
4314
The Gaia I mentioned wasn't the greek one. But I'll grant you that I may be off on the Gaia thing!
Though, you may simply replace Gaia worship with woman worship (which was practically the same at the time).
My point is we know nothing about the belief systems of pre-historic people. Speaking with that kind of certainty about just about anything from the past is generally not good practice.
Women worship is just one of a number of theories that have the same level of plausibility. (and then there are also a bunch of more fringier theories probably)
But I'd also say it's a pretty fringe theory that non-religious art was virtually nonexistent before Dadaism :)
author=OzzyTheOne
And just to be an ass, because why not, Gourd, Hitler was a big animal friend and was against smoking. Bad people can share the same values with good people, doesn't mean you now have to stop having those values.
This response makes me so mad on so many levels!! The idea that modern art has degenerated (along with the rest of culture) is a core tenet of fascism, along with veneration of tradition over all else, rigid violently enforced hierarchies etc. It's not just a random opinion that a random fascist happens to agree with. I pointed it out, bc if I believed something that's a core tenet of a hideous ideology I'd want to know so I could think about why I share that opinion and if I need to reevaluate.
also Fascists exist now and aren't just Hitler. The USA is currently having an uptick in ppl subscribing to the ideology. Knowing how it works, and what ideas draw people into believing it is how you protect your mind. I also!! didn't even call iddalai a fascist or say they needed to change their way of thinking. If iddalai wants to believe most art now is bad and that all digital art is easier for all ppl idrc!!
Darken
3952
I mean it is a factual thing. I think what Gourd_Clae is getting at is that type of thinking does raise red flags. Ask any oppressed minority if they'd want to go back to back to the 1950s of THE GOOD OL DAYS or really any time before humane rights for them were instated. So I'd excuse anyone who's not imediatly on board with the idea that art got worse as people gain more access/rights and more representation. I don't think anyone got called a fascist though, it's more like "Hey you're aware this line of thinking is weird right?"
Nostalgia is a great coping mechanism when times get rough, but idk each year I keep seeing new media from identities who would not normally have a voice as more and more things get accepted/normalized and that's pretty fucking cool. As much as I got into this site through SNES RPGs I would not personally want things to be stuck in the 90s forever. Might just be me tho.
Nostalgia is a great coping mechanism when times get rough, but idk each year I keep seeing new media from identities who would not normally have a voice as more and more things get accepted/normalized and that's pretty fucking cool. As much as I got into this site through SNES RPGs I would not personally want things to be stuck in the 90s forever. Might just be me tho.
When AI Art first debuted, I thought that it would be an interesting thing to give this power of art to brains that had not developed the discipline of art. In this way, a whole new class of thinking could have artistic outreach, and would be able to communicate in a new way.
But, then I learned how it functioned, and it's technically unethical. It wholly depends on currently shared art on the internet. The scraping mechanism cannot stand in current law, or moralistically. Law outright will not award an AI prompter with copyright.
But, then I learned how it functioned, and it's technically unethical. It wholly depends on currently shared art on the internet. The scraping mechanism cannot stand in current law, or moralistically. Law outright will not award an AI prompter with copyright.
Sidewinder
2880
author=Gourd_Clae
The idea that modern art has degenerated (along with the rest of culture) is a core tenet of fascism, along with veneration of tradition over all else, rigid violently enforced hierarchies etc. It's not just a random opinion that a random fascist happens to agree with.
A core tenant, though?
Kind of a stretch, plus (as far as I can tell) the concept of 'degenerate art' was more a German thing, not particularly practised by the Italian fascists.
author=DarkenThis is what I was saying, yeah! I was pretty deliberate in not calling anybody here a fascist and focusing on ideas. that said, I can definitely see how i might have come off and my apology still stands!!
I mean it is a factual thing. I think what Gourd_Clae is getting at is that type of thinking does raise red flags. Ask any oppressed minority if they'd want to go back to back to the 1950s of THE GOOD OL DAYS or really any time before humane rights for them were instated. So I'd excuse anyone who's not imediatly on board with the idea that art got worse as people gain more access/rights and more representation. I don't think anyone got called a fascist though, it's more like "Hey you're aware this line of thinking is weird right?"
@Sidewinder I don't know if I could really comment on the specific eccentricities of German v italian fascism tbh with you! It's probably more accurate to say that "culture is degrading" is a core tenant of fascism of which the idea of degenerate art is an extension. The concept of degenerate art is super important to neofascists in particular since it's a really subtle way of infecting ppl with the idea that society is worsening. (also that's an embarrassing typo on tenant on my part)
this is the most I've talked about fascism in my life btw lmao
Sidewinder
2880
author=Gourd_Clae
I don't know if I could really comment on the specific eccentricities of German v italian fascism tbh with you! It's probably more accurate to say that "culture is degrading" is a core tenant of fascism of which the idea of degenerate art is an extension.
Again, I'm not really finding a source for that.
I'm not a historian, nor am I even Italian so I'm probably not the best person to make this point, but as far as I can tell, protecting their culture from "degeneracy" was never a core component of Italian Fascism.
Which is kind of a problem since Italy is where the concept began.
author=Gourd_Clae
The concept of degenerate art is super important to neofascists in particular since it's a really subtle way of infecting ppl with the idea that society is worsening. (also that's an embarrassing typo on tenant on my part)
They'll cling to ideas of cultural degeneracy to give them a sense of legitimacy but in my experience the alt-right spent most of its time recruiting gamers.
Darken
3952
Sidewinder
Again, I'm not really finding a source for that.
I mean it's not hard to find glancing around wikipedia. But also ideologies aren't a clear cut objective thing, more just observations of a prominent belief system held by many people at certain contexts. Which also tends to evolve overtime.
Italian Fascists identified their ideology as being connected to the legacy of ancient Rome and particularly the Roman Empire: they idolized Julius Caesar and Augustus. Italian Fascism viewed the modern state of Italy as the heir of the Roman Empire and emphasized the need for renovation of Italian culture to "return to Roman values".
Alt right tubers like Prager U and Paul Joseph Watson talk about society and culture being degraded all the time and Make America Great Again is a call back to tradition, vague enough to seem innocent enough but it allows radicalizing people into agreeing to weird stuff like the "family unit" and religious formalities. Gamers are especially ripe for this because you can talk about how games used to be good before "those darn SJWs took over" and pivot talking points from there. Take advantage of nostalgia and distort history a little and you got a narrative that disenfranchised youth can latch onto.
@Sidewinder Actually, I guess fascism didn't originate in Italy! https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Intellectual-origins
Try searching for "italian fascism vs decline" or "italian fascism vs decadence" they're essentially the same concepts! I think the way neofascists use it is probably more important though.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Volksgemeinschaft (There's a section on it here)
https://sjsu.edu/faculty/wooda/2B-HUM/Readings/The-Doctrine-of-Fascism.pdf
As for the gamer comment, you're very much not wrong lmao! It's like darken said taking advantage of rose-tinted glasses and nostalgia is the way it functions and that's pretty easy with basically any form of media that people glom onto and make a big part of their personality like gamers do for some reason.
Try searching for "italian fascism vs decline" or "italian fascism vs decadence" they're essentially the same concepts! I think the way neofascists use it is probably more important though.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Volksgemeinschaft (There's a section on it here)
https://sjsu.edu/faculty/wooda/2B-HUM/Readings/The-Doctrine-of-Fascism.pdf
As for the gamer comment, you're very much not wrong lmao! It's like darken said taking advantage of rose-tinted glasses and nostalgia is the way it functions and that's pretty easy with basically any form of media that people glom onto and make a big part of their personality like gamers do for some reason.
Sidewinder
2880
author=Darken
I mean it's not hard to find glancing around wikipedia.
That's... not really a very good response.
To begin with, Mussolini's Italy leaning heavily into the Roman Empire stuff wasn't ever in contention. The issue was what parts of (at the time) modern culture did they consider degenerate?
That's what I can't find a source for. As far as I can tell (again, I'm not actually a historian) there was never any Italian version of 'Degenerate Art', or the book burnings.
Secondly, the link you provided includes a list of Core Tenants of Fascism:
- Palingenetic ultranationalism
- Nationalism
- Imperialism
- Militarism
- Racism
- Dictatorship
- Anti-communism
- Anti-intellectualism
- Anti-pacifism
- Chauvinism
- Conspiracism
- Direct action
- Social interventionism
- Social order
- Indoctrination
- Irrationalism
- Machismo
- Perpetual war
- Propaganda
- Populism
- Syncretism
- Heroism
- Economic interventionism
- Statolatry
- New Man
- Reactionary modernism
Note that 'culture is degrading' isn't one of them.
Thirdly, Wikipedia isn't... really a great source. Especially when dealing with a subject like fascism. There's been more than a few documented cases of Wehraboos just straight up writing fanfiction:
https://www.wired.com/story/one-womans-mission-to-rewrite-nazi-history-wikipedia/
author=Gourd_Clae
Actually, I guess fascism didn't originate in Italy! https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Intellectual-origins
In hindsight, it's probably more accurate to say that Italy was the first fascist country.
author=Gourd_Clae
Try searching for "italian fascism vs decline" or "italian fascism vs decadence" they're essentially the same concepts! I think the way neofascists use it is probably more important though.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Volksgemeinschaft (There's a section on it here)
https://sjsu.edu/faculty/wooda/2B-HUM/Readings/The-Doctrine-of-Fascism.pdf
I'm actually pretty sick right now (don't really want to be looking at a screen for much longer), unless there's something in particular you want me to read, I'm probably just going to bow out of this conversation.
Most of the results I'm getting from those two searches don't seem relevant to the conversation, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see in the two links you gave me.
I guess the tl;dr is that I don't think criticism or disenfranchisement with modern art is necessarily a gateway drug to the alt-right.
That being said, I also don't think iddalai's right about modern artists being inferior to older ones, either. Guys like Craig Mullins likely won't be remembered the same way Michelangelo was, but they're still just as cool.
Most of the things on that list are related to what I'm talking about in some way or another. Palingenetic ultranationalism in particular is the myth that modern society is in a state of social, cultural, and political crisis and that through embracing (some form of fascism) that could be remedied and brought back to an older, better form of the nation. I think it's kind of obvious how viewing modern art as being inherently worse than older art might align with that idea - and how german notions of degenerate art are an outgrowth of this idea - and how italian fascists fighting "modern decadence" in their society could be related too.
It's okay if you don't think neofascists who use this myth as it relates to art are successful in pulling people. It's also okay if you think the idea on its own is harmless. I have no idea about the first opinion and agree with you on the second, but again, I only brought it up in the first place because it set off alarms in my ears and I'd want someone to tell me if my thoughts were approaching reactionary ideas in the same way.
I guess I could send you some youtube videos explaining it, and archives of alt right ppl planning to use the idea of cultural degeneration via art as a recruiting tactic (I'd have ot find themO, and suggest books written by Roger Griffin (who I believe made that list in the first place). It's a lot of reading though especially when I feel like you're not denying the relation, or that neofascists on the internet use the idea as a recruiting tool. It sounds like you just think it doesn't work (which I couldn't tell you definitively), and that the thought "modern art is worse than older art" is too far removed from fascism to make the connection worthwhile (which is a little silly since alt-right chodes and fascists don't seem to agree if they try to use it as a recruiting tool).
Maybe I'll write an essay and compile some sources that could be fun!
It's okay if you don't think neofascists who use this myth as it relates to art are successful in pulling people. It's also okay if you think the idea on its own is harmless. I have no idea about the first opinion and agree with you on the second, but again, I only brought it up in the first place because it set off alarms in my ears and I'd want someone to tell me if my thoughts were approaching reactionary ideas in the same way.
I guess I could send you some youtube videos explaining it, and archives of alt right ppl planning to use the idea of cultural degeneration via art as a recruiting tactic (I'd have ot find themO, and suggest books written by Roger Griffin (who I believe made that list in the first place). It's a lot of reading though especially when I feel like you're not denying the relation, or that neofascists on the internet use the idea as a recruiting tool. It sounds like you just think it doesn't work (which I couldn't tell you definitively), and that the thought "modern art is worse than older art" is too far removed from fascism to make the connection worthwhile (which is a little silly since alt-right chodes and fascists don't seem to agree if they try to use it as a recruiting tool).
Maybe I'll write an essay and compile some sources that could be fun!
RedMask
1139
I noticed a few people in this discussion bad mouthed tracing. You guys don't know art very well. I happen to have a bachelors degree in art illustration. For one assignment our teacher had us replicate a master illustrator's painting as perfectly as possible and although you can't trace a painting, we were encouraged by our professor to trace the masterpiece art and then paint on top of it. I remember my professor clearly saying, "How you make art doesn't matter, the end result is what matters." This statement was from a highly respected art teacher. Having said all that, I don't know how he or my other teachers would react to AI art. I haven't fully formed my opinion on the AI subject yet.
Darken
3952
@Sidewinder: I linked Wikipedia just because this is like an laypeople forum about RPGs so I'm not gonna go above and beyond for this discussion. There's a book on it that links your exact keywords. I'm frankly not too curious to look into it further because I don't think isolating Italian fascism in a vacuum is that conductive. A lot of the fundamentals are about reviving culture from something idealized that came before. Which I think is more relevant.
Yeah I don't think random people misunderstanding modern or abstract art directly feeds into an alt right pipeline. However I think if your entire framework revolves around glorifying the past and ignoring the bad that comes with it, it can make you vulnerable to ideological talking points. I'm just repeating myself at this point though.
Yeah I don't think random people misunderstanding modern or abstract art directly feeds into an alt right pipeline. However I think if your entire framework revolves around glorifying the past and ignoring the bad that comes with it, it can make you vulnerable to ideological talking points. I'm just repeating myself at this point though.
author=RedMask
I noticed a few people in this discussion bad mouthed tracing. You guys don't know art very well. I happen to have a bachelors degree in art illustration. For one assignment our teacher had us replicate a master illustrator's painting as perfectly as possible and although you can't trace a painting, we were encouraged by our professor to trace the masterpiece art and then paint on top of it. I remember my professor clearly saying, "How you make art doesn't matter, the end result is what matters." This statement was from a highly respected art teacher. Having said all that, I don't know how he or my other teachers would react to AI art. I haven't fully formed my opinion on the AI subject yet.
Tracing is baller and a great tool for learning to make the kind art you want! Even tracing some photo or whatever to get a certain result is also fine imo so long as you're doing it the right way! But I think in this discussion it's more relevant as a negative just bc lots of very small-time artists who rely on art to make money have had their art fed into an algorithm without their consent. Taking the result of somebody's hard work, which they make a living off of, and essentially stealing it and not even acknowledging you did it is where most people take issue i think!
You guys read like chapters from a self-help booklet!
Shall I give you the gift of despair?
Muahahahaha!!!2111!!!
...*cough cough* erm... sorry, I let my villain persona take over for a moment there.
@Gourd_Clae : You are behaving awful.
Banding together with Darken to further mock me just a post after your supposed apology shows how disingenuous your previous post was.
From my viewpoint, you hide behind a “holier than thou” mask and use that as an excuse to behave like an ass-hat.
That's an awful attitude.
Calling me “Sephiroth/Kefka (or Cefca if you're really edgy)” is akin to how people used to call others “Hitler” to discredit them in forums more than a decade ago.
It's a dirty trick that devalues your contributions.
I was going to address your full posts... but then you kind of started writing like Don Corneo, so I'm dropping the convo (see, I can do it too!).
@Gourd_Clae & Darken : If you really believe that noticing how modern art and modern videogames can be lower quality when compared with older art and older videogames is a sign of fascism, then you are bat-shit insane.
You two would find fascism in a cabbage.
author=Sidewinder
That being said, I also don't think iddalai's right about modern artists being inferior to older ones, either.
That's not what I said, but fine...
Darken
3952
@Gourd_Clae & Darken : If you really believe that noticing how modern art and modern videogames can be lower quality when compared with older art and older videogames is a sign of fascism, then you are bat-shit insane.
Not what I said and I don't think you're a fascist or show signs of fascism (for the record). We're discussing a broader context here that's probably getting off track. You can rest easy knowing no one's out to get you.
