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[RMMV] BEST WAY OF DOING DAMAGE FORMULAE??
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Xenomic
1752
Xenomic
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CloseSo, soon I'll be working on enemies, and this means I will need assistance with making sure damage is fine between enemies and allies. I am using the default formula for physical and magic damage for most things, but the thing is, I have it set so that ATK/DEF/MAG/MDEF/SPD/Luck cannot go above 255 (that's the max for the player anyways. It's hardcapped, and HP is hardcapped at 9999 and MP at 999). I'm not sure if this will be a problem in regards to damage between enemies and allies, and was wondering what people may suggest in regards to stats that are set as such?
Also, I heard there was a Yanfly plugin that allows leveling up of skills depending on how much they're used?? If so, what plugin is that? I may use that since my idea of leveling up skills may take too much work and/or might not be viable...
Also, I heard there was a Yanfly plugin that allows leveling up of skills depending on how much they're used?? If so, what plugin is that? I may use that since my idea of leveling up skills may take too much work and/or might not be viable...
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
It really depends on how you want to balance it. High damage numbers are fun, but low damage numbers are easier for the player to wrap their head around. I would run a couple of test battles with all enemies and allies at their stat caps and see how that feels to you. Then run more battles with enemies and allies at their starting stats and see how that feels. If either of them don't feel good to you, adjust either the stat caps or the damage formula itself.
If it helps, rather than thinking about the numbers themselves, try to think about the desired flow of battle. For instance, instead of asking, "how much damage should this attack do?" instead ask, "How many hits should this enemy take before dying?" and adjust your stats accordingly. If a perfectly optimized party did about 500 damage on average per round, it may make sense to set a normal enemy's HP to be about 400 to account for damage variance and a player's sub optimal party. Maybe 300 if you want battles to go by quicker.
If it helps, rather than thinking about the numbers themselves, try to think about the desired flow of battle. For instance, instead of asking, "how much damage should this attack do?" instead ask, "How many hits should this enemy take before dying?" and adjust your stats accordingly. If a perfectly optimized party did about 500 damage on average per round, it may make sense to set a normal enemy's HP to be about 400 to account for damage variance and a player's sub optimal party. Maybe 300 if you want battles to go by quicker.
Irog
4858
author=Red_Nova
"How many hits should this enemy take before dying?"
Totally agree: The number of hits to kill is the best balancing metric ever !
I used it to balance other advantages like range and movement speed in MinST.
Xenomic
1752
Hmm...I see, I see. As an example of one of my abilities, I have it set to this:
150 + a.mat * 4 - b.mdf * 2 (50% variance).
That's generally what I have for magic attack damage, with a raw damage formula (highest Magic can go is 255, same with Magic Defense, for both enemies and allies (I think enemies only hit 255). I don't know if buffs actually go beyond hard caps.
I guess I'll have to actually put in an enemy and adjust stats around it (first enemies are basic, and you have one party member for that area. When I used to work on Touhou Fantasy, I did try to balance enemy stats around what the party's stats were at that time, including HP and resists). Probably why I'm thinking so hard on this lol. And now that I can actually DO something with damage formulae, been thinking about this a lot. But yeah, I'll just have to test it as I get to it! If anything, I suppose with the default formulae, adjusting just the DEF/MDF stats of the enemies might be more than enough??
150 + a.mat * 4 - b.mdf * 2 (50% variance).
That's generally what I have for magic attack damage, with a raw damage formula (highest Magic can go is 255, same with Magic Defense, for both enemies and allies (I think enemies only hit 255). I don't know if buffs actually go beyond hard caps.
I guess I'll have to actually put in an enemy and adjust stats around it (first enemies are basic, and you have one party member for that area. When I used to work on Touhou Fantasy, I did try to balance enemy stats around what the party's stats were at that time, including HP and resists). Probably why I'm thinking so hard on this lol. And now that I can actually DO something with damage formulae, been thinking about this a lot. But yeah, I'll just have to test it as I get to it! If anything, I suppose with the default formulae, adjusting just the DEF/MDF stats of the enemies might be more than enough??
CrazyBabi
9612
Personally, I prefer this damage formula over the default format:
(200*a.atk)/(100+b.def)
This is my normal attack damage formula. This format make sure the attack still do some damage when the target's def so much larger the the attacker's atk. This formula also offer more flexibility when designing a skill.
Example:
(200*a.atk)/(50+2*b.def)
The output of this formula will affected more by the enemies def.
(50*a.atk*a.atk)/(100+b.def)
While having a small damage at the beginning of the game, the output of this formula will growth exponentially as the atk increases.
For designing damage formula, you should explore what you can do instead of stuck with default format. You can even throw some variable(s) in it and manipulate the value at the end of the turn, increasing or decreasing the damage as the fight goes on.
Still, at the end of the day, the most important part is playtesting. You need to playtest and adjust the formula (or stats) accordingly until you happy with the result.
(200*a.atk)/(100+b.def)
This is my normal attack damage formula. This format make sure the attack still do some damage when the target's def so much larger the the attacker's atk. This formula also offer more flexibility when designing a skill.
Example:
(200*a.atk)/(50+2*b.def)
The output of this formula will affected more by the enemies def.
(50*a.atk*a.atk)/(100+b.def)
While having a small damage at the beginning of the game, the output of this formula will growth exponentially as the atk increases.
For designing damage formula, you should explore what you can do instead of stuck with default format. You can even throw some variable(s) in it and manipulate the value at the end of the turn, increasing or decreasing the damage as the fight goes on.
Still, at the end of the day, the most important part is playtesting. You need to playtest and adjust the formula (or stats) accordingly until you happy with the result.
Edit: The output of this formula is harder to control than the default format.
It can help to write a small program that estimates the damage vs. different enemies at different player levels/equipment configurations. That way, you won't need to test battle, but only to run this quick math program to see if a player, at a certain level, with a certain weapon, is doing acceptable damage.
There's also other things to consider, like, how many turns the player is getting. There's the possibility of doubling, tripling damage, or having other effects.
I'm thinking Shin Megami Tensei's Press Turn system, where using certain attacks will effectively triple the damage your party does for that round, while certain other attacks will totally negate all of your damage for that round and cost you your entire turn. This also has to be considered as total damage.
There's also later Etrian Odyssey games, where the game has expected you to master layering damage-dealing abilities such that they pile up on each other and do exponentially more damage than they would have otherwise when used with less organization. So, a boss could either be a "damage sponge" to a person who hasn't mastered layering the abilities, or "too easy" where most of the damage can be dealt in a single round.
There's also other things to consider, like, how many turns the player is getting. There's the possibility of doubling, tripling damage, or having other effects.
I'm thinking Shin Megami Tensei's Press Turn system, where using certain attacks will effectively triple the damage your party does for that round, while certain other attacks will totally negate all of your damage for that round and cost you your entire turn. This also has to be considered as total damage.
There's also later Etrian Odyssey games, where the game has expected you to master layering damage-dealing abilities such that they pile up on each other and do exponentially more damage than they would have otherwise when used with less organization. So, a boss could either be a "damage sponge" to a person who hasn't mastered layering the abilities, or "too easy" where most of the damage can be dealt in a single round.
Xenomic
1752
Hm...true. My game is set as CTB style (ala FFX), so it's still based on speed and stuff, but you can't just switch to another character on a character's turn, and enemies can't take actions during that character's turn (you can switch party members out in the middle of a fight at any time though, but only with the currently active party member). It's also to stack a bunch of buffs on characters and make them do obscene damage if setup right. For example, Fauna (the main character) can be setup to do a buttload of damage (taking that ability from earlier, which is how all 4 of her elemental abilities are):
150 + a.mat * 4 - b.mdf * 2 (50% variance)
Let's ignore the 50% variance and put it at 0% for now. So let's say it's an enemy with 100 MDF and she has a MAT of 100 as well. So that'd be 350 damage without variance (if I'm doing my math right). She has a buff that gives +20% Magic, and another buff that gives her +200% magic damage at the cost of halving her healing power (can use again to reverse the effects). On top of that, she can get a +50% Magic buff from another party member, a 3rd party member can grant a magic damage by 50%, and another character can grant x2 elemental weakness damage buff to the party. And another party member can grant Dualcast (only for magic spells).
So that's +250% magic damage boost, with +70% Magic boost, and +200% elemental damage boost, and doublecast. So with all that, the damage becomes from 350 to like...1487 without elemental damage and 2975 with elemental damage, excluding doublecast? Of course, that's a heck of a setup to do, and I don't know how viable that is but...I also want to make sure that skills stay useful throughout the entire game too and get stronger over time. That one damage formula up there seems good but...as stated, might be hard to keep in check? lol
(And that's just one character. Another one can do some nutty things in term of physical damage and how low her HP is)
150 + a.mat * 4 - b.mdf * 2 (50% variance)
Let's ignore the 50% variance and put it at 0% for now. So let's say it's an enemy with 100 MDF and she has a MAT of 100 as well. So that'd be 350 damage without variance (if I'm doing my math right). She has a buff that gives +20% Magic, and another buff that gives her +200% magic damage at the cost of halving her healing power (can use again to reverse the effects). On top of that, she can get a +50% Magic buff from another party member, a 3rd party member can grant a magic damage by 50%, and another character can grant x2 elemental weakness damage buff to the party. And another party member can grant Dualcast (only for magic spells).
So that's +250% magic damage boost, with +70% Magic boost, and +200% elemental damage boost, and doublecast. So with all that, the damage becomes from 350 to like...1487 without elemental damage and 2975 with elemental damage, excluding doublecast? Of course, that's a heck of a setup to do, and I don't know how viable that is but...I also want to make sure that skills stay useful throughout the entire game too and get stronger over time. That one damage formula up there seems good but...as stated, might be hard to keep in check? lol
(And that's just one character. Another one can do some nutty things in term of physical damage and how low her HP is)
Irog
4858
The high damage setup up you describe probably requires to adjust the balancing metric to "number of turns to kill" to take into account the number of turns needed to build your high damage setup up. This new metric is also better to evaluate abilities dealing multiples hits per turn.
Adding the crossbowmen in MinST made me adjust the balancing metric to "number of action points to kill" because loading the crossbow works just like your high damage setup up.
Adding the crossbowmen in MinST made me adjust the balancing metric to "number of action points to kill" because loading the crossbow works just like your high damage setup up.
Xenomic
1752
The thing too is I WOULD like to have the abilities level up and get stronger throughout the game (350 at the start of the game might be TOO much honestly lol), so that all abilities stay relevant throughout the entire game, so that might make things a bit tricky. Sure, this setup does work with making magic skills for anyone being super strong (especially for someone like Fauna who's the only one that can hit those high numbers with this setup), but it's also easy for this setup to outright fail due to someone dying (especially Fauna) or being dispelled or whatever nonsense might happen.
It's kinda like trying to roll for Exodia, I guess lol. Taking a big risk for that victory! But yeah, maybe I should try to aim for number of turns?? Though you don't have access to all these abilities right from the get-go (you do learn them over time as you level up), so it's not even like you can do this immediately. And I'm not sure if the 50% variance balances it at all or not, seems like it might unbalance it? lol
That does remind me that there are some abilities that naturally hit 4 times (usually low damage though), and one character has an ability that hits multiple times based on her level (so every 10 levels, the ability gets +1 additional hit, up to 9 hits at level 99 I think). Gonna be fun to balance those properly!
It's kinda like trying to roll for Exodia, I guess lol. Taking a big risk for that victory! But yeah, maybe I should try to aim for number of turns?? Though you don't have access to all these abilities right from the get-go (you do learn them over time as you level up), so it's not even like you can do this immediately. And I'm not sure if the 50% variance balances it at all or not, seems like it might unbalance it? lol
That does remind me that there are some abilities that naturally hit 4 times (usually low damage though), and one character has an ability that hits multiple times based on her level (so every 10 levels, the ability gets +1 additional hit, up to 9 hits at level 99 I think). Gonna be fun to balance those properly!
Xenomic
1752
So I did a quick video of this, using only regular attacks with enemies (I had to set Fauna from level 1 to level 6 in order for her to not die in one hit to some enemies lol. I think level 6 is good for her though). I have the enemy stats in the description as well as Fauna's (not speed though), so it's all there, as well as the damage formulae.
I'm debating if this is good at all or not. Maybe for THIS area, but I don't know how much it'll affect later areas (or skills. I haven't touched skills at all for enemies, which is the next thing I'll have to do, oh boy!). Like turns are going to matter (you also get a look at how the battle system works, it's FFX style as you can see in the upper right) so Speed is a big stat, but I also want all the other stats to matter as well (as you could see, the Fairy with 8 ATK did 0 damage to Fauna, who has 18 DEF. Fauna with 19 ATK was doing somewhere around 20 damage to the Bear that has 35 DEF, but around 65 to the Wolf which has 12 DEF.
I guess the biggest thing here, as stated, probably needs to revolve around HP moreso than the stats? Though buffs/debuffs will definitely change how battles will go (obviously you don't have the big buffs/debuffs at the start of the game).
I don't know, I guess I'm looking for some input/help in regards to this from others, since this is a tricky thing for me to deal with. I don't think I handled it THAT well in Touhou Fantasy, but I did it good enough that the system handled it then, but since MV has way more flexibility than 2k3...yeah.
EDIT - I have found the plugin for skill mastery for skills (the more a skill is used, the higher leveled it'll get, giving it more effects). With the formula as such:
value * (1.00 + (level * 0.20)) // +20% per level
Where level is the skill mastery level, and value is the formula of the skill. So in the case of say...Fauna at level 6 with 49 MAG vs. a boss with 20 MDEF, with a skill that does damage equal to (150 + Fauna's MAG x 4 - Target's MDEF x 2) with 0% variance....that should be 306 damage normally at level 0, but at level 1...367 damage because +20% more damage I think?? So the question is, how to balance this out...hmmmm....
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