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CHARACTER DEPTH AND DIALOGUE...WHERE'S MAX MCGEE WHEN YOU NEED HIM?
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halibabica
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CloseSo, as you may have guessed, this is a discussion about character depth and dialogue. This is an area of storytelling that is something of an enigma to me. I don't know how depthy characters are made, or how flat characters grow deeper. Similarly, I have no clue what makes dialogue good/bad/interesting/boring. That's what I hope to figure out!
I'm calling out Max McGee on this one because I've seen him flaunting his four-year creative writing degree all over the place. Time to share some wisdom, oh teller of tales!
Of course, everyone's welcome to contribute to this topic. How do you go about making interesting characters and dialogue?
For Max:
I'm calling out Max McGee on this one because I've seen him flaunting his four-year creative writing degree all over the place. Time to share some wisdom, oh teller of tales!
Of course, everyone's welcome to contribute to this topic. How do you go about making interesting characters and dialogue?
For Max:
Are you Max? No? Well, maybe you can help, too.
I'm looking for more direct help from you. You'll be happy to know this will not require you to play any of my games, though.
Puppets and Pawns
This link goes to the download page for a project I entered in a cutscene contest a while back. Don't worry, there are no Pokemon in it!
While the contest ultimately flopped, I still got some decent feedback from the host of it. He said the dialogue was really lacking and the characters were very one-dimensional. But, he didn't have much to say about how to fix it.
What I'd like for you to do is give this a view and tell me where I'm going wrong. Any advice you can offer would be really helpful, as I can't recognize these problems with my current level of understanding.
The project itself is merely a cutscene, and plays from start to finish while requiring nothing from you other than hitting enter to progress the dialogue boxes. If you can't be bothered with this, then I'm sorry for calling you out.
I'm looking for more direct help from you. You'll be happy to know this will not require you to play any of my games, though.
Puppets and Pawns
This link goes to the download page for a project I entered in a cutscene contest a while back. Don't worry, there are no Pokemon in it!
While the contest ultimately flopped, I still got some decent feedback from the host of it. He said the dialogue was really lacking and the characters were very one-dimensional. But, he didn't have much to say about how to fix it.
What I'd like for you to do is give this a view and tell me where I'm going wrong. Any advice you can offer would be really helpful, as I can't recognize these problems with my current level of understanding.
The project itself is merely a cutscene, and plays from start to finish while requiring nothing from you other than hitting enter to progress the dialogue boxes. If you can't be bothered with this, then I'm sorry for calling you out.
Develop and present your characters like they were human. Plan out and show the relationships between characters (and I mean more than Alex's relatoinship with Jill, Zuhriman, and Jughead. There should be some defined relationship between Jill, Zuhriman, and Jughead that should come up now and then. Have your characters interact with each other (and other characters) so you can show who they are and have them actually act human. Also friction would be a good way of showing different sides to a character's personality. Everybody doesn't get along with everybody else, maybe Jill and Zuhriman hate each other or disagree with how the other gets stuff done. Show some other sides to characters when everything isn't Happy Go Lucky.
If the characters are boring the dialog will be just as bad. Interesting characters are the basis which good dialog stems from. Also practice. Learn to walk before running 'n stuff. And proofreading your dialog at least a day after you write it.
(Feel free to slap me around Max/competent writers, I don't have the experience or knowledge to back up my claims)
*edit*
Dangnabbit I got Zuhriman's name wrong
If the characters are boring the dialog will be just as bad. Interesting characters are the basis which good dialog stems from. Also practice. Learn to walk before running 'n stuff. And proofreading your dialog at least a day after you write it.
(Feel free to slap me around Max/competent writers, I don't have the experience or knowledge to back up my claims)
*edit*
Dangnabbit I got Zuhriman's name wrong
iamnot
48
I watched your cutscene, so here is some C&C.
I guess I will start with the characters themselves. They were not necessarily bad, but it felt like there was only one layer to them. They where, on a whole, forgettable. One guy wanted pay, two of them where kindhearted good guys, not as interested in rewards, and I don't even remember the last guy.
Try adding some small quirks to the characters, or things that are wrong. Make them imperfect. Also, try giving them some solid beliefs, things that they stand for. For example, the guy who wanted pay: Maybe he believes that the only way to victory is through pure strength, and so he concentrates on that, in the process making some rash or foolhardy decisions, maybe getting the party into trouble. But, at the same time, make sure he has redeeming qualities, while he focuses on strength, he is also incredibly loyal and would make sacrifices for his friends.
Also, giving each character a past, maybe one never even seen by the players eyes, is a great way to help set up your characters. Maybe they have a certain fear that is caused by an event in their past, or growing up in a certain setting gives them their beliefs or causes them to think the way they do.
Again, we will use the money guy for an example. Maybe he grew up poor, and so he feels like money is really important to him, something that will help make up for his poor childhood. Or maybe it is the opposite, maybe he grew up rich and is used to having money all the time, and is currently low on cash.
Once you have each character defined, dialogue will fall in place. It won't be perfect still, but at the very least it will help give your characters a distinguished personality which is the first step toward good dialogue. From there, you can work on refining what they say. A lot of the dialogue in your scene felt flat and stale, or as you put in your game, robotic. It just seemed generic. Try adding in distinguishing words, or phrasing things differently. Maybe try giving some of your characters dialects (but make sure it is readable!). Read your conversations aloud and see if they make sense to you, or seem like it is a conversation that would actually take place.
Also, don't put in fluff! Make everything in a conversation worth reading! Be it character development or story development, make sure it isn't there just to take space! And give your characters emotions! This is pretty hard, I have found, in an rpgmaker game, as a lot of times emotion is in the things you don't say, or your facial expressions, or when you write out the emotion it just seems cheesy. This is something I am still working one, the best way I have found so far is to animate sprites. I know that is not necessarily dialogue, but I think it is still an important part of making it feel real.
Bah, I kind of just went from the top of my head, so hopefully it makes sense and can be of use to you! Sorry I couldn't remember the characters names! I overall liked the cutscene though, I thought the puppet machine was really cool and well done!
I guess I will start with the characters themselves. They were not necessarily bad, but it felt like there was only one layer to them. They where, on a whole, forgettable. One guy wanted pay, two of them where kindhearted good guys, not as interested in rewards, and I don't even remember the last guy.
Try adding some small quirks to the characters, or things that are wrong. Make them imperfect. Also, try giving them some solid beliefs, things that they stand for. For example, the guy who wanted pay: Maybe he believes that the only way to victory is through pure strength, and so he concentrates on that, in the process making some rash or foolhardy decisions, maybe getting the party into trouble. But, at the same time, make sure he has redeeming qualities, while he focuses on strength, he is also incredibly loyal and would make sacrifices for his friends.
Also, giving each character a past, maybe one never even seen by the players eyes, is a great way to help set up your characters. Maybe they have a certain fear that is caused by an event in their past, or growing up in a certain setting gives them their beliefs or causes them to think the way they do.
Again, we will use the money guy for an example. Maybe he grew up poor, and so he feels like money is really important to him, something that will help make up for his poor childhood. Or maybe it is the opposite, maybe he grew up rich and is used to having money all the time, and is currently low on cash.
Once you have each character defined, dialogue will fall in place. It won't be perfect still, but at the very least it will help give your characters a distinguished personality which is the first step toward good dialogue. From there, you can work on refining what they say. A lot of the dialogue in your scene felt flat and stale, or as you put in your game, robotic. It just seemed generic. Try adding in distinguishing words, or phrasing things differently. Maybe try giving some of your characters dialects (but make sure it is readable!). Read your conversations aloud and see if they make sense to you, or seem like it is a conversation that would actually take place.
Also, don't put in fluff! Make everything in a conversation worth reading! Be it character development or story development, make sure it isn't there just to take space! And give your characters emotions! This is pretty hard, I have found, in an rpgmaker game, as a lot of times emotion is in the things you don't say, or your facial expressions, or when you write out the emotion it just seems cheesy. This is something I am still working one, the best way I have found so far is to animate sprites. I know that is not necessarily dialogue, but I think it is still an important part of making it feel real.
Bah, I kind of just went from the top of my head, so hopefully it makes sense and can be of use to you! Sorry I couldn't remember the characters names! I overall liked the cutscene though, I thought the puppet machine was really cool and well done!
Dude try PMing me. Or did you already and it didn't work?
Anyway, I am in Colorado and also dwarf fortress owns my life right now. So that accounts for my scarcity of posting. But thanks for thinking of me!
I will watch this some time later and try to get back to you with the most helpful feedback I can muster.
It looks like GRS and iamnot have done a pretty good job so far though!
Anyway, I am in Colorado and also dwarf fortress owns my life right now. So that accounts for my scarcity of posting. But thanks for thinking of me!
I will watch this some time later and try to get back to you with the most helpful feedback I can muster.
It looks like GRS and iamnot have done a pretty good job so far though!
No, I didn't try PMing you. I've found RMN's PM system unreliable, and I wanted it to be an open discussion anyway.
So far, this has been good advice. I already knew some of these things, but need to keep them in mind more often. Right now, it feels like my biggest problem is my characters' lack of defining traits. I'll have to figure out some ways to make them stand out more.
So far, this has been good advice. I already knew some of these things, but need to keep them in mind more often. Right now, it feels like my biggest problem is my characters' lack of defining traits. I'll have to figure out some ways to make them stand out more.
S. F. LaValle
1069
It might sound obvious, but I try to develop characters to a point where you know what they will say and how they will say it. For me, it helps to actually picture the character as a real life person or actor speaking the dialogue. Imagine the character as the archetype you modeled them after (like, Han Solo for the cocky hero). I consciously try to avoid "transcribing" dialogue. I have an idea of what needs said, then step into the character's shoes before I say it. I think a character's personality has the power to flavor even the shortest sentences, and substitute even the simplest words.
Don't be afraid of subtlety. Even though RPG Maker is a difficult story-telling device, don't feel you need to bash the player's head in with a thick accent or an overbearing personality flaw that borders on self-stupor (unless, of course, you're making a game with obviously comical or cartoonish characters). Personality can be conveyed in more than just the choice of words; consider when a subject is important for the character to talk about (or if they just talk any chance they get). How long do they speak, how well do they listen to others, do they interrupt others, are they easily interrupted, do they present ideas, do they talk down to others, or do they prefer not to speak until spoken to. Just like we need time with a person to figure out what makes them tick, people will pick up on and draw their own conclusions about a character if you keep their involvement consistent.
Don't be afraid of subtlety. Even though RPG Maker is a difficult story-telling device, don't feel you need to bash the player's head in with a thick accent or an overbearing personality flaw that borders on self-stupor (unless, of course, you're making a game with obviously comical or cartoonish characters). Personality can be conveyed in more than just the choice of words; consider when a subject is important for the character to talk about (or if they just talk any chance they get). How long do they speak, how well do they listen to others, do they interrupt others, are they easily interrupted, do they present ideas, do they talk down to others, or do they prefer not to speak until spoken to. Just like we need time with a person to figure out what makes them tick, people will pick up on and draw their own conclusions about a character if you keep their involvement consistent.
Written accents are terrible. Don't do that.
I am supporting SFL's post 100%. You don't need STAT BLOCKS or WRITING CLASSES (kentona this is aimed at you) or DIAMONDS to write out a videogame character's dialogue.
My advice is to write a single, short sentence or clause that describes your characters. See: Final Fantasy XII's advertising, which influenced Demon Tower's character info directly. After that, follow SFL's advice about consistency. It is absolutely key.
One of the worst things you can do is decide upon a set-in-stone template for your character (STAT BLOCKS). I'm talking stuff like LIST YOUR HERO'S NAME/AGE/WEIGHT/BLOOD TYPE/EYE COLOR/DEAD SIBLINGS/FAVORITE KIND OF FOOD FOR TUESDAY NIGHT DINNER. That stuff doesn't matter and will only restrict your ideas. Boundries are okay, but static limitations will ruin your characters.
I am supporting SFL's post 100%. You don't need STAT BLOCKS or WRITING CLASSES (kentona this is aimed at you) or DIAMONDS to write out a videogame character's dialogue.
My advice is to write a single, short sentence or clause that describes your characters. See: Final Fantasy XII's advertising, which influenced Demon Tower's character info directly. After that, follow SFL's advice about consistency. It is absolutely key.
One of the worst things you can do is decide upon a set-in-stone template for your character (STAT BLOCKS). I'm talking stuff like LIST YOUR HERO'S NAME/AGE/WEIGHT/BLOOD TYPE/EYE COLOR/DEAD SIBLINGS/FAVORITE KIND OF FOOD FOR TUESDAY NIGHT DINNER. That stuff doesn't matter and will only restrict your ideas. Boundries are okay, but static limitations will ruin your characters.
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