Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
NUMBERS, AND SYSTEM TRANSPARENCY
Posts
Aten
1570
Aten
View playlists
CloseIn a game like Xenogears, speed is important as hell and even a 1 point increase MASSIVELY affects the gameplay.
Also, it's like this. Dependnig on the game, the stats vary, if a game has 2 characters with, eg, STR 4 and STR 5, then that game is one where obviously even 1 point will make a lot of difference. And if it's something like STR 10 STR 24. Then it takes MORE points to make a difference.
Also, it's like this. Dependnig on the game, the stats vary, if a game has 2 characters with, eg, STR 4 and STR 5, then that game is one where obviously even 1 point will make a lot of difference. And if it's something like STR 10 STR 24. Then it takes MORE points to make a difference.
Shadowtext
120
author=Aten link=topic=3169.msg62232#msg62232 date=1234840454And yet, saying that an item gives you +25% STR means the same thing in either without giving the player an errand to run before he upgrades his items or chooses his newest ability.
In a game like Xenogears, speed is important as hell and even a 1 point increase MASSIVELY affects the gameplay.
Also, it's like this. Dependnig on the game, the stats vary, if a game has 2 characters with, eg, STR 4 and STR 5, then that game is one where obviously even 1 point will make a lot of difference. And if it's something like STR 10 STR 24. Then it takes MORE points to make a difference.
author=Aten link=topic=3169.msg62232#msg62232 date=1234840454
In a game like Xenogears, speed is important as hell and even a 1 point increase MASSIVELY affects the gameplay.
Also, it's like this. Dependnig on the game, the stats vary, if a game has 2 characters with, eg, STR 4 and STR 5, then that game is one where obviously even 1 point will make a lot of difference. And if it's something like STR 10 STR 24. Then it takes MORE points to make a difference.
That depends. Do the 5 STR / 6 STR characters put out differing amounts of damage? Only then does that point matter. If the difference is INSANE you may want to double-check your formula. If it's appreciable, then that point means something.
Aten
1570
But remember, % is pretty powerful. You can't just go willy nilly increasing everything in percentages. If you had 150 STR, something "+25" would just give you.... +25. Wheres +25% would give you 37 points instead and depending on the game, this may or may not be what you want to be doing.
Very true. Xenogears handled this by making "+speed" items very rare, but they made ALL the difference. And yeah, if used on STR or DEF, its how you made your formula, in my own game, every 1 point you increase affects the damage output by at least 10, then that output increases and increases with every consecutive point you put in it.
That depends. Do the 5 STR / 6 STR characters put out differing amounts of damage? Only then does that point matter. If the difference is INSANE you may want to double-check your formula. If it's appreciable, then that point means something.
Very true. Xenogears handled this by making "+speed" items very rare, but they made ALL the difference. And yeah, if used on STR or DEF, its how you made your formula, in my own game, every 1 point you increase affects the damage output by at least 10, then that output increases and increases with every consecutive point you put in it.
Shadowtext, in that last example are you suggesting that each character have a BASE STAT and then equipment that compliments it with a percentage?
If so, I'm down with that.
If so, I'm down with that.
S. F. LaValle
1069
author=Shadowtext link=topic=3169.msg62231#msg62231 date=1234840156
I'm not trying to get rid of numbers. I'm trying to get rid of meaningless numbers.
Let's put it this way: if we were using colors instead of numbers, would you rely on the player's experience to determine which color was good and which color was bad? Or would you want to give them some indication that "Yes, this is a good thing!"
If people can count, it's apparent that a higher number is better than a lower number (colors don't apply). That being said, a good developer doesn't simply rely on that fact and create items that just go up in numbers as the game goes on. Like I said earlier, developers need to create the proper weight of their stats, regardless if they're represented with regular numbers, percentages, colors, sounds, or smells.
The fact here is that some people enjoy the number crunching, and some people will just ride the "optimize" button throughout the whole game. The way the stats are presented is an aesthetic choice, but it's the developer's responsibility to present their value.
Shadowtext
120
author=Craze link=topic=3169.msg62238#msg62238 date=1234840913Well that's the SORT of thing I'm talking about. It's far from the extent at what I'm getting at, which is essentially "games that require a slide rule to play are starting to irritate me," but it's a start.
Shadowtext, in that last example are you suggesting that each character have a BASE STAT and then equipment that compliments it with a percentage?
If so, I'm down with that.
Aten
1570
author=Craze link=topic=3169.msg62238#msg62238 date=1234840913
Shadowtext, in that last example are you suggesting that each character have a BASE STAT and then equipment that compliments it with a percentage?
If so, I'm down with that.
This would be cool, but then the entire game would revolve around this aspect, and this would go from being "regular ol' stats" to being "a feature".
But it is extremely possible, and there could be games that can make use of this greatly. Just not regular RPG's. (Since I can't think of any that do this)
Aten
1570
FFX! My fav game! ^^
But FFX didn't have % based stats, (which is what shadowtext is saying I gather.) You could just increase your base by that amount but your base wasn't in %, it was regular stats.
Also, you brought up another good point that I mentioned earlier, each point you put in a stat significantly increased the output of that stat.
But FFX didn't have % based stats, (which is what shadowtext is saying I gather.) You could just increase your base by that amount but your base wasn't in %, it was regular stats.
Also, you brought up another good point that I mentioned earlier, each point you put in a stat significantly increased the output of that stat.
S. F. LaValle
1069
Percentages are dangerous. Something that gives +20% to a stat is powerful, and I wouldn't want to give it at the beginning of the game. Even if 20% is less useful in the beginning of the game than in the end, there would be no room to give the player anything more powerful during the course of the game.
I'm totally up for new ideas, we just have to give credit to the big game companies that for the most part haven't strayed from a number-based system. And I don't believe this is due to lack of effort or innovation.
I'm totally up for new ideas, we just have to give credit to the big game companies that for the most part haven't strayed from a number-based system. And I don't believe this is due to lack of effort or innovation.
Shadowtext
120
author=S. F. LaValle link=topic=3169.msg62249#msg62249 date=1234841857Would you say the same thing about game's stories? We shouldn't feel the need to deviate too much from the formulas that Square Enix has already done because they have shown them to be good enough so far, for example?
we just have to give credit to the big game companies that for the most part haven't strayed from a number-based system. And I don't believe this is due to lack of effort or innovation.
Numbers are the best part of an rpg. If you are complaining that it's annoying too have many stats and no way to tell which is more useful then you are missing the point of RPGs. Yes it's kind of stupid but experimenting with different items is part of what RPGs are.
Shadowtext
120
author=arcan link=topic=3169.msg62254#msg62254 date=1234843722Numbers are not vital to an RPG. A clear descent from Dungeons and Dragons is.
Numbers are the best part of an rpg. If you are complaining that it's annoying too have many stats and no way to tell which is more useful then you are missing the point of RPGs. Yes it's kind of stupid but experimenting with different items is part of what RPGs are.
Let me also point out that in pen and paper RPGs, outside of munchkins, number crunching isn't as big an issue past character generation either. You decide if your character is going for bracers of dexterity or bracers of animal handling based not on which gives the better bonus, but which the character would be more drawn to.
Video Game RPGs sort of enforce a munchkin mindset on the player. I feel this is to the detriment of the experience. But obviously you can't implement true roleplaying in a video game without a machine capable of passing a Turing Test handling the AI.
Aten
1570
Well, you better face the reality now shadowtext. This whole "number" thing? Ain't changing. There is no way something as important as stats and numbers are going to be removed from an RPG but if you're that adamant about it, then the only thing you can do is make your own game with your own choice of whatever.
Shadowtext
120
author=Aten link=topic=3169.msg62258#msg62258 date=1234844764You know, this is like the third time in two weeks I've gotten a response like this, it's beginning to make me think there's no point in having a Game Design & Theory board.
Well, you better face the reality now shadowtext. This whole "number" thing? Ain't changing. There is no way something as important as stats and numbers are going to be removed from an RPG but if you're that adamant about it, then the only thing you can do is make your own game with your own choice of whatever.
This isn't about changing the way everyone does things.
This is about addressing the unexamined traditions that we follow and seeing what sorts of new options there are. This is about getting at least a few people thinking "Do things have to be the way they are now?"
You know what? Don't examine the assumptions about game design that I question in these threads if you don't want to. But if that's the case, do not feel obligated to engage in them, because they do not concern your game.
If your problem with this is more that I continue to defend the sides in these arguments that I do even after you've already said you don't care, then get over it. I'm going to defend my side as best I can, and I expect people who argue against me to do the same. There is no point in having these discussions if we're not willing to challenge both the theses and the antitheses being presented.
I thought we were discussing. We just all agree that numbers are cool and shouldn't really be changed. Maybe its just that you aren't giving good enough suggestions.
S. F. LaValle
1069
I would never go so far as to say that there's no way the current system of numbers in RPG's aren't changing. There is no limit to possibilities. The question is, can it be done to make a larger population of players happier with the end product?
You're right, Shadowtext. Maybe big game companies strive only to innovate gameplay by falling back on the assumption that it should be built around numbers. Maybe they haven't really tried to reinvent the wheel in that aspect. They may not be spending resources trying to change up those fundamentals, probably because the numbers, as a whole, work for people.
This is the true essence of my argument: I like the numbers, even the ones that seem meaningless. I derive my own ideas about their values, and base my gameplay style around that. Will I enjoy a game that changes that aspect? I'd love to try, I'm open to anything. I personally don't feel the need to innovate with this, however. I'm more than comfortable trying to come up with innovative gameplay, a good story, and more exciting manipulation of these numbers than making a game that just presents these numbers in a different way.
You're right, Shadowtext. Maybe big game companies strive only to innovate gameplay by falling back on the assumption that it should be built around numbers. Maybe they haven't really tried to reinvent the wheel in that aspect. They may not be spending resources trying to change up those fundamentals, probably because the numbers, as a whole, work for people.
This is the true essence of my argument: I like the numbers, even the ones that seem meaningless. I derive my own ideas about their values, and base my gameplay style around that. Will I enjoy a game that changes that aspect? I'd love to try, I'm open to anything. I personally don't feel the need to innovate with this, however. I'm more than comfortable trying to come up with innovative gameplay, a good story, and more exciting manipulation of these numbers than making a game that just presents these numbers in a different way.
Shadowtext
120
author=S. F. LaValle link=topic=3169.msg62268#msg62268 date=1234846561
I would never go so far as to say that there's no way the current system of numbers in RPG's aren't changing. There is no limit to possibilities. The question is, can it be done to make a larger population of players happier with the end product?
You're right, Shadowtext. Maybe big game companies strive only to innovate gameplay by falling back on the assumption that it should be built around numbers. Maybe they haven't really tried to reinvent the wheel in that aspect. They may not be spending resources trying to change up those fundamentals, probably because the numbers, as a whole, work for people.
This is the true essence of my argument: I like the numbers, even the ones that seem meaningless. I derive my own ideas about their values, and base my gameplay style around that. Will I enjoy a game that changes that aspect? I'd love to try, I'm open to anything. I personally don't feel the need to innovate with this, however. I'm more than comfortable trying to come up with innovative gameplay, a good story, and more exciting manipulation of these numbers than making a game that just presents these numbers in a different way.
author=arcan link=topic=3169.msg62267#msg62267 date=1234846458
I thought we were discussing. We just all agree that numbers are cool and shouldn't really be changed. Maybe its just that you aren't giving good enough suggestions.
That last response was more directed at the whole "Well this isn't changing so do it yourself!" response and its like, not the fact that people don't agree with me. If you like numbers, go ahead and like them. It's when questions like this are just flat out dismissed that I become upset.
