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INDIE VS. AMATEUR - AN ARTICLE EVERYONE SHOULD READ
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In terms of music, I have always considered an amateur to be someone in a garage band, where an indie musician is essentially a professional who has either yet to break into the mainstream publishing arena or who wishes to circumvent it entirely.
I would say the same is true of game developers, and most of us, with a few exceptions, would fall into the garage band category.
That doesn't mean the garage band dude doesn't love his music as much or work at it as much as the indie musician or rockstar, it just means it's not his day job or life's aspiration -- he does it on weekends to have fun with the boys.
I would say the same is true of game developers, and most of us, with a few exceptions, would fall into the garage band category.
That doesn't mean the garage band dude doesn't love his music as much or work at it as much as the indie musician or rockstar, it just means it's not his day job or life's aspiration -- he does it on weekends to have fun with the boys.
What about those of us taking piano lessons, hoping to hone our skills until we reach that indie level of talent?
author=ChaosProductions link=topic=3462.msg71312#msg71312 date=1240119330
What about those of us taking piano lessons, hoping to hone our skills until we reach that indie level of talent?
Amateur! It doesn't have to be a permanent state; you can upgrade after you are done grinding for XP.
Dark Gaia
3474
IF anything, the term Indie just means that you are developing your work on your own INDEPENDANTLY from anything or anyone else. Thus, in a literal sense, ameteurs ARE indie developers too, another thing wrong with this guy's article: He is using his own opinion of which is which rather than the more commonly accepted classification.
I think a lot of the negative feedback from this article, aside from the author's lack of eloquence, is that a lot of amateur game developers just consider themselves indie and don't like the categorical downgrade or the bruised ego.
You're right, in an extreme literal sense an amateur game developer and an indie game developer are synomanous. But let's be realistic here. I really don't think making your typical RPG Maker game (amateur) and making World of Goo or Braid (indie) is the same thing. Likewise, there is a large difference between being an understudy in the school play and starring in a film at the Sundance Film Festival. It's parsing words, yes, but there is a real difference between something you are doing as a hobby with no profit motive and something you are creating on your own with the intent and resources to "make it big".
I also realize the rise of the digital age, especially with DIY publishing, has blurred the line between the two, and they are often interchangable. You can now upload those scribbles you did to deviantart and attract quite the following; you can record your garange band and upload the mp3s on the net for a mass audience.
You're right, in an extreme literal sense an amateur game developer and an indie game developer are synomanous. But let's be realistic here. I really don't think making your typical RPG Maker game (amateur) and making World of Goo or Braid (indie) is the same thing. Likewise, there is a large difference between being an understudy in the school play and starring in a film at the Sundance Film Festival. It's parsing words, yes, but there is a real difference between something you are doing as a hobby with no profit motive and something you are creating on your own with the intent and resources to "make it big".
I also realize the rise of the digital age, especially with DIY publishing, has blurred the line between the two, and they are often interchangable. You can now upload those scribbles you did to deviantart and attract quite the following; you can record your garange band and upload the mp3s on the net for a mass audience.
Indie Movie means "Movie created Independantly from the Studios (The big LA ones)".
For games it's the same.
RPG Maker games would be Indie if RPG Maker 2k and 3 wasn't pirated software.
For games it's the same.
RPG Maker games would be Indie if RPG Maker 2k and 3 wasn't pirated software.
That is pretty much ignoring the entire point of Holbert's post. There is a drastic difference between Braid and Balmung Cycle.
I believe that when people here hear "Don't you want to bring an experience to others? To express what is inside of you?" There is a deep resonance. In that world nothing like "amateur vs indie" matters. When I read an article like this I just want to express how big a waste of time it was.
I have a tablet now. I will create my story.
If I didn't have one, I would find another way to create my story.
If I had a million dollars, I would use it to create my story.
It's like that Cat Stevens song of where he talks about if he lost his hands he would play piano with his feet. You use what you have.
I have a tablet now. I will create my story.
If I didn't have one, I would find another way to create my story.
If I had a million dollars, I would use it to create my story.
It's like that Cat Stevens song of where he talks about if he lost his hands he would play piano with his feet. You use what you have.
Lets move this over here.
RPG Maker is a story telling tool. It has allowed many great stories to be told. Anyone who is big on playing RPG Maker games knows that a good one can beat commercial games any day.
RPG Maker is a story telling tool. It has allowed many great stories to be told. Anyone who is big on playing RPG Maker games knows that a good one can beat commercial games any day.
Dark Gaia
3474
author=gotmilkxtreme2 link=topic=3462.msg71319#msg71319 date=1240123688
Indie Movie means "Movie created Independantly from the Studios (The big LA ones)".
For games it's the same.
RPG Maker games would be Indie if RPG Maker 2k and 3 wasn't pirated software.
Ah, but XP and VX AREN'T pirated, and commercial games that were made in them are for all intents and purposes classed as "indie" by the gaming industry as a whole.
I don't think maker is relevant though. If you are making your game on your own without input from anyone else, you are making an indie game. Fine, RM comes with pre made parts, but most RM games use custom scripts anywho and it's not as if Enterbrain has any input whatsoever into what your individual game contains and is like.
Storytelling means nothing to this discussion. Nobody has claimed that RM is not a story-telling tool because that isn't a statement that is at all meaningful to this.
You can tell a story by hand writing it on line paper. Or you can have it written in Office and published by a large publisher and sent to all the big stories. They are still stories, yes, but they are not the same thing.
You can tell a story by hand writing it on line paper. Or you can have it written in Office and published by a large publisher and sent to all the big stories. They are still stories, yes, but they are not the same thing.
AznChipmunk
4613
The way people responded angrily to being called "amateur" reminded me of a philosophical text I read once. Basically it means, you are "amateur," since you respond harshly and fear being such. =P
Dark Gaia
3474
I don't think it was people responding for that reason exactly.
I think most people responded just to point out that the guy was sounding very arrogant and making generalizations. I'm not exactly sure any indie developers would have liked his comments basically saying that they have no life outside of game making.
I think most people responded just to point out that the guy was sounding very arrogant and making generalizations. I'm not exactly sure any indie developers would have liked his comments basically saying that they have no life outside of game making.
Skie Fortress
2394
If it bothers you that much, you could simply prove his so-called 'generalizations' wrong by making a good game. Better time spent than fruitlessly going back and forth here.
author=Skie Fortress link=topic=3462.msg71346#msg71346 date=1240132188
If it bothers you that much, you could simply prove his so-called 'generalizations' wrong by making a good game. Better time spent than fruitlessly going back and forth here.
Neophyte
155
Ho-hum, here is Alex May, an IGF finalist.
The definition of the words aren't even similar, I am sorry guys. You are trying inflitrate good game vs. bad game into these words and it creates a stupid discussion.
Alex: This comes from that Andrew Doull article. It was stupid then and it's still stupid because it's a false dichotomy. Amateur means non-professional. Independent means free. These are not the same. Imagine instead of a single dimension, where at one end of the line you have amateurs and free games, and at the other you have indies and commercial games, you have a two-dimensional space, where on one axis you have amateur and professional, and on the other you have freedom and constraint. Then you will see the real terrain.
The definition of the words aren't even similar, I am sorry guys. You are trying inflitrate good game vs. bad game into these words and it creates a stupid discussion.
If it bothers you that much, you could simply prove his so-called 'generalizations' wrong by making a good game. Better time spent than fruitlessly going back and forth here.I am sorry Skie but we cannot do that. Our next debates are Chipsets Vs. Tilesets - Which term is Correct? And whether or not to call Zelda an RPG.
author=gotmilkxtreme2 link=topic=3462.msg71319#msg71319 date=1240123688
Indie Movie means "Movie created Independantly from the Studios (The big LA ones)".
For games it's the same.
RPG Maker games would be Indie if RPG Maker 2k and 3 wasn't pirated software.
What does pirated software have to do with anything? Professionals have been caught using pirated software before. Oops! :)
author=Dark Gaia link=topic=3462.msg71324#msg71324 date=1240124555
Ah, but XP and VX AREN'T pirated, and commercial games that were made in them are for all intents and purposes classed as "indie" by the gaming industry as a whole.
Trust me, they don't. I have actually been speaking to a prominent figure in the indie games industry pretty regularly about business, and I felt almost sick to my stomach when he said, and I quote, "the only amateur game that has really made a splash in the larger indie scene recently has been Barkley." He would later also mention Exit Fate. I am not a fan of Barkley by any means, but he's right.
Amateur is just that, amateur. Indie and commercial games are two sides of an entirely different coin from amateur games. Both indie and commercial game developers are professional game developers, the only difference being one has a big studio backing it and the other does not. It is possible for an amateur game developer to become an indie game developer and Skie already said how:
author=Skie Fortress link=topic=3462.msg71346#msg71346 date=1240132188
If it bothers you that much, you could simply prove his so-called 'generalizations' wrong by making a good game. Better time spent than fruitlessly going back and forth here.
