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DUNGEON DESIGN ~WHERE IS BRICKROAD WHEN YOU NEED HIM?~
Posts
Neok
3602
Neok
View playlists
CloseSo I've been designing some dungeons as of late, and I'm interested in hearing about any tutorials or articles on the math or secrets behind effective puzzle design.
For example, making an explorable area with one-way paths that you can reverse using a switch. Are there any algorithms or math theory that one can use to determine how many paths to make and where to locate switches?
I also recall someone mentioned that Brickroad would plot out his dungeons on graph paper. Can anyone elaborate on his method for doing this?
For example, making an explorable area with one-way paths that you can reverse using a switch. Are there any algorithms or math theory that one can use to determine how many paths to make and where to locate switches?
I also recall someone mentioned that Brickroad would plot out his dungeons on graph paper. Can anyone elaborate on his method for doing this?
Know what he told me in IRC ages ago? Play a lesser known puzzle game and adapt a puzzle from it to your own game. Or even mesh several puzzles together into something new.
I've borrowed ideas from Chip's Challenge in the past, for example.
I've borrowed ideas from Chip's Challenge in the past, for example.
MayorAnime
282
Gah! I hate to toot my own horn, but I believe my most recent article, on Level Design, will (at least) help you out:
http://www.rpgmaker.net/articles/144/
(If we're not allowed to promote our own articles, Admins, lemme know.)
It's lengthy, but it goes over a lot of the basics. And of course, Kentona is A-1 on the mark with playing out other games with puzzles and learn from them.
Good luck. PM or reply here if you need any personal support. I'll do the best that I can!
http://www.rpgmaker.net/articles/144/
(If we're not allowed to promote our own articles, Admins, lemme know.)
It's lengthy, but it goes over a lot of the basics. And of course, Kentona is A-1 on the mark with playing out other games with puzzles and learn from them.
Good luck. PM or reply here if you need any personal support. I'll do the best that I can!
Look up Euler circuits. They are mathematical methods of making paths with many vertices/intersections where you never have to cross the same path twice; there are also variations with dead ends and such. They could help, you, maybe!?
Darken
3952
Uh, what about Brickroad's dungeon design article? http://www.rpgmaker.net/articles/3/ It's more specific than MA's. Also play games like Lufia 2 and take notes.
I remember seeing those, but there's not much to it. Draw the dungeon layout, define the puzzle objects inside the dungeon and what they do, and what connections they have. It's really for organizational purposes. You could draw it in the RM map editor, but you might end up focusing on the looks rather than the technical details. I'm currently designing a game where the game itself is a complex dungeon. Graph paper really helps.
I also recall someone mentioned that Brickroad would plot out his dungeons on graph paper. Can anyone elaborate on his method for doing this?
I remember seeing those, but there's not much to it. Draw the dungeon layout, define the puzzle objects inside the dungeon and what they do, and what connections they have. It's really for organizational purposes. You could draw it in the RM map editor, but you might end up focusing on the looks rather than the technical details. I'm currently designing a game where the game itself is a complex dungeon. Graph paper really helps.
MayorAnime
282
author=Darken link=topic=3586.msg72162#msg72162 date=1240594468
Uh, what about Brickroad's dungeon design article? http://www.rpgmaker.net/articles/3/ It's more specific than MA's. Also play games like Lufia 2 and take notes.
I just read the article, and yeah it's more specific to dungeons than to levels in general. Much better for the specific assistance Neok needs here.
Neophyte
155
Yes, I also map out my dungeons on paper in order to get the best results. It's amazing what the difference is once you do that, because you're able to plot specific points and know what each area does before you need to actually make it. You can also make notes on the side, etc.
For puzzles, I guess it depends on what you're really trying to do with your dungeon. When I come to stumps, I usually try games that have lots of puzzle influence in them (Alundra, Lufia, Wild Arms) and see some of their designs. Unfortunately those games are more of the interactive puzzle type (moving objects and using tools), they won't touch on what you're trying to do here. I don't even think Brickroad's tutorial touches on it (it's because we all hate math). But I think Craze's idea might be of some help.
For puzzles, I guess it depends on what you're really trying to do with your dungeon. When I come to stumps, I usually try games that have lots of puzzle influence in them (Alundra, Lufia, Wild Arms) and see some of their designs. Unfortunately those games are more of the interactive puzzle type (moving objects and using tools), they won't touch on what you're trying to do here. I don't even think Brickroad's tutorial touches on it (it's because we all hate math). But I think Craze's idea might be of some help.
This is one of my weak points now...bizarrely I believe I used to be better at this when I was younger. Anyway, now I'd rather draft general game mechanics- i.e. field skills like lock picking and trap finding- than instance gameplay like puzzles and minigames.
Neok
3602
Thanks for the help everyone. Euler Circuits are probably the closest to what I'm getting at.
While I'm here, I'll give something back to the community. Here's my version of the graphing method. I do it mainly inside RM2k3 using this chipset:
Here's a skeleton of one of my dungeons.
The green and pink squares are exits that interchangeably open and close depending on what the purple switch is set to, while blue squares are normal open exits. White square is start point and Black square is the goal.
And most recently my dungeon skeletons have looked like this:
Where this time the green and pink are one way routes that can be toggled with the purple switch. So the reason I had created this topic was to figure out how to position those one-way paths and purple switches and ensure it works without having to run through it by eye. I'll take a look at Euler's and see how well I can apply it later.
While I'm here, I'll give something back to the community. Here's my version of the graphing method. I do it mainly inside RM2k3 using this chipset:
Here's a skeleton of one of my dungeons.
The green and pink squares are exits that interchangeably open and close depending on what the purple switch is set to, while blue squares are normal open exits. White square is start point and Black square is the goal.
And most recently my dungeon skeletons have looked like this:
Where this time the green and pink are one way routes that can be toggled with the purple switch. So the reason I had created this topic was to figure out how to position those one-way paths and purple switches and ensure it works without having to run through it by eye. I'll take a look at Euler's and see how well I can apply it later.
Brickroad doesn't participate in the community anymore because his game was less popular than games that are garbage. It pretty much ruined his motivation to continue.
Neophyte
155
Oh, so this is similar to what Mr. Magi did with the Yggdrasil Spring and Phantasmagician Manor. It isn't exactly the same, but similar. If you can't figure it out, ask him.
MayorAnime
282
author=WIP link=topic=3586.msg72200#msg72200 date=1240618813
Brickroad doesn't participate in the community anymore because his game was less popular than games that are garbage. It pretty much ruined his motivation to continue.
Ouch. Were his games ridiculed? Or just not played/talked about by anyone? Cause I can attest, it is hard to motivate yourself to be a part of a community when it seems that the majority of people either don't what you there, or want to take every opportunity to throw negativity your way.
On the rare occasion that Kinetic Cipher is mentioned, it's always in regard to how good it is, so I'd say it's just that they weren't played much. Shame, he really seemed to know what he was doing.
The weird thing is over time it's gotten more praise then it ever did when Brickroad continued to release it. Now that is just bullshit to be honest. If Brick came here it wouldn't be so bad.
Neok you continue to amaze me. I never thought of doing something like that graphing for design of an area/dungeon.
Neok you continue to amaze me. I never thought of doing something like that graphing for design of an area/dungeon.
author=Craze link=topic=3586.msg72154#msg72154 date=1240591077solution: build another bridge. königsberg does not have enough bridges
Look up Euler circuits. They are mathematical methods of making paths with many vertices/intersections where you never have to cross the same path twice; there are also variations with dead ends and such. They could help, you, maybe!?
my dungeon building method is this: GO IN GUNS BLAZING. SEND IN THE CAVALRY. I rarely plan anything out and rely entirely on my instinct and imagination. this is not necessarily a good idea but I have not learned otherwise.
Despain
415
I think that one of the most important things in dungeon design comes down to consistency. If your dungeon has a theme, stick to it. Earlier puzzles should be repeated later on in a larger and more complicated scale. Not only does this make it easier for you, the designer, but it adds a natural learning curve to the game and makes it feel tighter and more cohesive. It also adds FLAVOR. :)
If you're not too confident in terms of puzzles or challenges, an alternative route is to really weave the story into the dungeon. It's certainly not a replacement, and puzzles should still be incorporated, but if you're able to keep the player involved and as long as he doesn't forget why the dungeon is relevant, then it won't feel like a chore.
For example, one of the major themes of a dungeon in an older project of mine was that it told a story through hieroglyphs on the walls. The story was a parallel to things that were going on in the overall story (yay), but more importantly, the dungeon was designed around this story, and the player would stumble across pieces of the story that were out of place. It certainly wasn't a typical puzzle, but it presented something for the player to do beyond exploring rooms and fighting baddies.
If you're not too confident in terms of puzzles or challenges, an alternative route is to really weave the story into the dungeon. It's certainly not a replacement, and puzzles should still be incorporated, but if you're able to keep the player involved and as long as he doesn't forget why the dungeon is relevant, then it won't feel like a chore.
For example, one of the major themes of a dungeon in an older project of mine was that it told a story through hieroglyphs on the walls. The story was a parallel to things that were going on in the overall story (yay), but more importantly, the dungeon was designed around this story, and the player would stumble across pieces of the story that were out of place. It certainly wasn't a typical puzzle, but it presented something for the player to do beyond exploring rooms and fighting baddies.
...Why can't the monsters BE the puzzles? Like luring water monsters over fire tiles, or simply having complicated monster groups that take STARTEJY to beat? Or make it to where you have to chase down a certain monster event on the map, with other monsters hindering you along the way.
author=geodude link=topic=3586.msg74225#msg74225 date=1241942524Hahahahahaha I love you.author=Craze link=topic=3586.msg72154#msg72154 date=1240591077solution: build another bridge. königsberg does not have enough bridges
Look up Euler circuits. They are mathematical methods of making paths with many vertices/intersections where you never have to cross the same path twice; there are also variations with dead ends and such. They could help, you, maybe!?
myersguy: Brick only believes in Jesus around the end of December.
Chaos: Because numbers suck.
