MANAGING RPG TOUCH ENCOUNTERS
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It's quite obvious that the tradition of 'wandering around a dungeon and having a battle coming out of nowhere' mainly exists in "oldschool" geared RPGs nowadays. When asked, most RPG players will tell you they like to see a monster on the actual map so they know that they're going to get into a battle. We are at the point where touch encounters is one of the common solution to remove one the more common annoyances of the RPG genre. Being able to see the monster out in the open gives the player assurance that there won't be any surprises. However, that doesn't fully solve the problem, as it creates many more needs of balancing and tweaks.
This specific discussion is aimed towards those of you who are going the touch based route for battle initiations. However, that simple choice does not make everything better. Since the random encounter tradition all started with RPG programmers just being lazy, it is obvious that you'll be doing a lot more work than them.
Here are things you have to consider:
-The enemy graphics, will you give them variety? What if don't have fitting graphics for the in-battle graphics, will you paint them black? (The Way)
-What is their behavior? How strong is their AI? Wander around, chase you if close? Do they all do the same thing? Some might be passive, others might ambush you, some might attack you after solving a puzzle? Etc.
-When engaging the battle, whats happens after you win? Does the enemy vanish or does it simply freeze allowing you to fight it whenever you want (Demon Tower)?
-What happens after you escape the battle? Does the enemy disappear (thus losing exp opportunity) or does he stop for a couple of seconds?
-Are facings a large factor in the battle? For example, touch an enemy from behind and you get the jump on them in battle (Kinetic Cipher).
-Finally, how do you balance the numbers on each map? How do you make sure the players will get enough exp, or maintain the progression? Do monsters reappear on the map once you leave it? How do you prevent grind abuse?
These questions are just here to provoke thoughts, you don't have to answer them in a quiz like fashion. Anyway, touch encounters is what I'm wondering about now for my project and I just want to hear people's thoughts, ideas, or even existing methods.
This specific discussion is aimed towards those of you who are going the touch based route for battle initiations. However, that simple choice does not make everything better. Since the random encounter tradition all started with RPG programmers just being lazy, it is obvious that you'll be doing a lot more work than them.
Here are things you have to consider:
-The enemy graphics, will you give them variety? What if don't have fitting graphics for the in-battle graphics, will you paint them black? (The Way)
-What is their behavior? How strong is their AI? Wander around, chase you if close? Do they all do the same thing? Some might be passive, others might ambush you, some might attack you after solving a puzzle? Etc.
-When engaging the battle, whats happens after you win? Does the enemy vanish or does it simply freeze allowing you to fight it whenever you want (Demon Tower)?
-What happens after you escape the battle? Does the enemy disappear (thus losing exp opportunity) or does he stop for a couple of seconds?
-Are facings a large factor in the battle? For example, touch an enemy from behind and you get the jump on them in battle (Kinetic Cipher).
-Finally, how do you balance the numbers on each map? How do you make sure the players will get enough exp, or maintain the progression? Do monsters reappear on the map once you leave it? How do you prevent grind abuse?
These questions are just here to provoke thoughts, you don't have to answer them in a quiz like fashion. Anyway, touch encounters is what I'm wondering about now for my project and I just want to hear people's thoughts, ideas, or even existing methods.
I have never seen a good touch encounter system. I'm sure they exist in rarity, but I've seen one that wasn't just "hmm a monster I will simply side step all of them- ah perfect" or "hmm a monster WAIT HE IS COMING AT ME AT 4x HERO SPEED" *unavoidable battle that may as well have been random*.
Here is how, ideally, I think touch encounters should be handled. Lufia 2 style I-move-you-move monsters (which is doable, including monsters-based puzzles where monsters move in specific patterns based on YOUR movement i.e. mirror moves) that disappear until the dungeon is finished. It would be pretty interesting to see monsters disappear completely in a dungeon UNLESS the player used some sort of item (preferably purchasable). Any player who enjoyed the battles enough could use the item to level, whereas the vast majority of players could breath a sigh of relief. I've always liked rewards for completing areas, and touch encounters allow the good old "defeat all monsters and something special will happen" clause.
I really think that any game that uses touch encounters and then does NOTHING with them except have them directly replace random battles is silly. I have no problem with random battles, but touch encounters opens up a world of out-of-battle possibilities, and overlooking those possibilities is tantamount to the same kind of laziness that apparently spawned random battles in the first place (although I sincerely doubt it was laziness in those early days).
edit: alternatively, defeating all the encounters in an area could unlock a chest AND remove monsters from that map in the future, whereas leaving a few means they'll breed and be back before you know it. Hey why not monsters are frisky devils!
Here is how, ideally, I think touch encounters should be handled. Lufia 2 style I-move-you-move monsters (which is doable, including monsters-based puzzles where monsters move in specific patterns based on YOUR movement i.e. mirror moves) that disappear until the dungeon is finished. It would be pretty interesting to see monsters disappear completely in a dungeon UNLESS the player used some sort of item (preferably purchasable). Any player who enjoyed the battles enough could use the item to level, whereas the vast majority of players could breath a sigh of relief. I've always liked rewards for completing areas, and touch encounters allow the good old "defeat all monsters and something special will happen" clause.
I really think that any game that uses touch encounters and then does NOTHING with them except have them directly replace random battles is silly. I have no problem with random battles, but touch encounters opens up a world of out-of-battle possibilities, and overlooking those possibilities is tantamount to the same kind of laziness that apparently spawned random battles in the first place (although I sincerely doubt it was laziness in those early days).
edit: alternatively, defeating all the encounters in an area could unlock a chest AND remove monsters from that map in the future, whereas leaving a few means they'll breed and be back before you know it. Hey why not monsters are frisky devils!
An idea: If your level is high enough, touching low-leveled enemies will not trigger a battle; you have to touch them AND press the action button if you really want to start a battle. This saves time and annoyance, since having to fight through hordes of cannon-fodder opponents can really grate on a player's nerves.
I liked how the Romancing SaGa and SaGa Frontier games handled touch battle enemy graphics. Each category of enemies (birds, beasts, plants, insects, undead, etc.) had its own representative sprite wandering around on the field. Of course, if you're good with charset graphics, you can choose to go the extra mile and make unique sprites for every individual enemy (or at least every enemy family, like Wolf/Wolflord/Werewolf from Dragon Quest 1)
I liked how the Romancing SaGa and SaGa Frontier games handled touch battle enemy graphics. Each category of enemies (birds, beasts, plants, insects, undead, etc.) had its own representative sprite wandering around on the field. Of course, if you're good with charset graphics, you can choose to go the extra mile and make unique sprites for every individual enemy (or at least every enemy family, like Wolf/Wolflord/Werewolf from Dragon Quest 1)
post=102795Exactly. I agree with the entirety of your sentiments :P. Most of what you mentioned is evident in Balmung Cycle.
Long post from Kaempfer.
Also, I would like to add something. It would be great if levels were designed to offer routes or 'actions' that allow the player to avoid certain enemies (e.g, there is a cliff-pass in which the player must traverse, and there are two routes that the player can take. He can choose to either traverse a pit full of monsters/enemies to reach the other side, or he can use a 'zip-line' to pass over the enemies). You could add, in addition to this, a point-based system in which you earn 'points' (along with experience) from each monster/enemy you defeat. You can then utilise these 'points' to access special routes that will allow you to reach an area easier, as well as avoiding enemies. Of course, these special routes would require a certain number of 'points' in order for the player to use them.
It's just an idea :P.
In the games that I've used touch encounters as opposed to random encounters, I usually let them roam around randomly. But then in RealmS I decided to do something a bit different. Monsters are really just wild animals and they have their own actions based on environment and/time of day. Quite a few monsters that you see can't actually be fought as they are just going around doing their own business.
Some will run away if they see you, some will try to attack you and others may lie in wait around treasure chests, hoping to catch something to eat that way. Still others just do their own thing and ignore the silly humans wandering through their environment. I'm trying to make the creatures (and by default) the world a little more realistic.
For example, Pen Hens startle quite easily and run if they see a human, but if you are near their nesting areas they will become quite aggressive. This is not only shown in their actions on the field but also their actions during battle. A broody Pen Hen will be more aggressive during a fight, but one that is not will be quite easy to defeat.
Well, that's what I'm trying to achieve anyway. ^.^
As for whether or not they return after defeat, you first have to leave the area in RealmS.
Although, in Celdran's Curse, if you kill all of the Pedimils (including the ones that are hiding in the nests) they do not come back and later in the game that area becomes a farmers' paradise. ^.^ They couldn't use the area for farms before because of the Pedimil infestation.
Some will run away if they see you, some will try to attack you and others may lie in wait around treasure chests, hoping to catch something to eat that way. Still others just do their own thing and ignore the silly humans wandering through their environment. I'm trying to make the creatures (and by default) the world a little more realistic.
For example, Pen Hens startle quite easily and run if they see a human, but if you are near their nesting areas they will become quite aggressive. This is not only shown in their actions on the field but also their actions during battle. A broody Pen Hen will be more aggressive during a fight, but one that is not will be quite easy to defeat.
Well, that's what I'm trying to achieve anyway. ^.^
As for whether or not they return after defeat, you first have to leave the area in RealmS.
Although, in Celdran's Curse, if you kill all of the Pedimils (including the ones that are hiding in the nests) they do not come back and later in the game that area becomes a farmers' paradise. ^.^ They couldn't use the area for farms before because of the Pedimil infestation.
In my game the plan is to only have the enemies that are standing still respawn(except ones blocking the way, obviously), so that if you want to grind, you can, but if you don't, you can go from map to map no problem.
As for running- Touch encounters are generally easy to avoid(I know mine probably won't stalk you) so once you're in a battle, you're staying there. I plan to heal the player after each battle so the only reason to run is because you suck. ;D
As for running- Touch encounters are generally easy to avoid(I know mine probably won't stalk you) so once you're in a battle, you're staying there. I plan to heal the player after each battle so the only reason to run is because you suck. ;D
Liberty
Things about animals acting like animals
This is a really good way to handle encounters, I think, but it becomes a lot of work to keep up throughout the game. Not only in terms of thinking up news ways for those nefarious wild animals to act, but also to keep each encounter working properly.
Having situations change in the gameworld after certain tasks have been accomplished (or even having different monsters altogether start popping up) is another good use of touch encounters. In my old, abandoned project, I had planned that bandits ruled a highway and would harass you if you traveled down it. There was a quest to defeat the bandit leader, though, which would stop bandits attacking you and let you "fast travel" from one city to the next without encounters. After your victory, if you tried walking down the road or exploring around it the area was filled with crummier loner brigands and wild beasts that the organized bandits had kept at bay. The encounters got a little harder to reflect the player's level, but they also tied into the story.
There is so much you can do with controlling encounters in events it is crazy!
Well, here's how I handle these encounters.
-The enemy graphics, will you give them variety? What if don't have fitting graphics for the in-battle
graphics, will you paint them black?
I just use the same graphic for all of them as an abstrace representation.
-What is their behavior? How strong is their AI? Wander around, chase you if close? Do they all do the same thing? Some might be passive, others might ambush you, some might attack you after solving a puzzle? Etc.
They pretty much go nuts if you get close to them, which works for how my game has established the general personality of its monsters. The behavior looks like they are pestering you to agree to battle them.
-When engaging the battle, whats happens after you win? Does the enemy vanish or does it simply freeze
allowing you to fight it whenever you want (Demon Tower)?
The enemy disappears completely
-What happens after you escape the battle? Does the enemy disappear (thus losing exp opportunity) or does he stop for a couple of seconds?
there is no escape from my battles >:3
-Are facings a large factor in the battle? For example, touch an enemy from behind and you get the jump on them in battle (Kinetic Cipher).
hmmm...nah
-Finally, how do you balance the numbers on each map? How do you make sure the players will get enough exp, or maintain the progression? Do monsters reappear on the map once you leave it? How do you prevent grind abuse?
for starters, once you defeat a monster it is gone for good (if it gave out exp. monsters that give out gold only will reappear) I keep careful track of the exp the players will get from each battle, allowing me to know EXACTLY hos much exp. they will have if they defeated all the monsters they faced, and I balance out boss encounters based on that. I also make sure that characters who have been KO'd always get the exp. This is somthing I felt should happen in all RPGs anyway, but in mine it absolutely must happen to avoid completely screwing the player over and breaking the game.
-The enemy graphics, will you give them variety? What if don't have fitting graphics for the in-battle
graphics, will you paint them black?
I just use the same graphic for all of them as an abstrace representation.
-What is their behavior? How strong is their AI? Wander around, chase you if close? Do they all do the same thing? Some might be passive, others might ambush you, some might attack you after solving a puzzle? Etc.
They pretty much go nuts if you get close to them, which works for how my game has established the general personality of its monsters. The behavior looks like they are pestering you to agree to battle them.
-When engaging the battle, whats happens after you win? Does the enemy vanish or does it simply freeze
allowing you to fight it whenever you want (Demon Tower)?
The enemy disappears completely
-What happens after you escape the battle? Does the enemy disappear (thus losing exp opportunity) or does he stop for a couple of seconds?
there is no escape from my battles >:3
-Are facings a large factor in the battle? For example, touch an enemy from behind and you get the jump on them in battle (Kinetic Cipher).
hmmm...nah
-Finally, how do you balance the numbers on each map? How do you make sure the players will get enough exp, or maintain the progression? Do monsters reappear on the map once you leave it? How do you prevent grind abuse?
for starters, once you defeat a monster it is gone for good (if it gave out exp. monsters that give out gold only will reappear) I keep careful track of the exp the players will get from each battle, allowing me to know EXACTLY hos much exp. they will have if they defeated all the monsters they faced, and I balance out boss encounters based on that. I also make sure that characters who have been KO'd always get the exp. This is somthing I felt should happen in all RPGs anyway, but in mine it absolutely must happen to avoid completely screwing the player over and breaking the game.
This has probably been said at some time or other, but I liked how Earthbound/Mother did the touch-encounters where if they're too low a level, you simply beat the enemy automatically.
I personally don't think the behaviour of touch-encounters matters too much. When I'm playing a game, I'd rather be able to avoid things as necessary (ie. have encounter movements be mainly consistent throughout) instead of having really erratic and changing movement patterns. Isn't the whole point of touch-based encounters to let the player decide if they want to fight or not?
Kind of an aside, but I'm surprised I haven't played any games using a Pokemon-style encounter system: "tall grass" plus a lot of mostly-unavoidable one-time trainer battles.
I personally don't think the behaviour of touch-encounters matters too much. When I'm playing a game, I'd rather be able to avoid things as necessary (ie. have encounter movements be mainly consistent throughout) instead of having really erratic and changing movement patterns. Isn't the whole point of touch-based encounters to let the player decide if they want to fight or not?
Kind of an aside, but I'm surprised I haven't played any games using a Pokemon-style encounter system: "tall grass" plus a lot of mostly-unavoidable one-time trainer battles.
post=102849
Kind of an aside, but I'm surprised I haven't played any games using a Pokemon-style encounter system: "tall grass" plus a lot of mostly-unavoidable one-time trainer battles.
You can tell the designers really knew how annoying random encounters are - they only happen in grass, and they're easy to run from. But Pokemon really only works with random encounters because of the catching aspect.
Basically the way I'm doing it, the enemies swarm all around but they never actually touch you, so if you are careful, or stand still, they will eventually give up. However, you might get your ass kicked by bosses if you avoid battles
- if I were to put enemies right on the map, I'd use the appropriate graphics. if i can't find any, I'll just use a skeleton graphic >.>
- their AI would depend on the situation. if we're in a case where a house is burning down and we have to get out in X number of minutes, I think their AI should be "chase hero" or create a barrage near the end.
- after battle, they'll just dissappear and you'll get bonus creds/exp if you meet certain requirements in battle such as finishing it in X number of minutes.
- after escaping, the hero should move away from the monster, wait 1.0 seconds to catch some breath, and then the monster continues to pursue the hero.
- hmm, touch an enemy from behind and you get a preemptive strike (like in Persona 4 or FF6) or an initiative. if they will be the ones who touch you, then you'll get a pincer attack. if they touch you from behind, a character will be put under "Stunned" status and the battle will be a back attack kind.
- I'll just put enough for the map. maybe i'll make some respawn after some minutes so the player can get a bit more exp, but only a limited number of respawns (like 3 or 4).
- their AI would depend on the situation. if we're in a case where a house is burning down and we have to get out in X number of minutes, I think their AI should be "chase hero" or create a barrage near the end.
- after battle, they'll just dissappear and you'll get bonus creds/exp if you meet certain requirements in battle such as finishing it in X number of minutes.
- after escaping, the hero should move away from the monster, wait 1.0 seconds to catch some breath, and then the monster continues to pursue the hero.
- hmm, touch an enemy from behind and you get a preemptive strike (like in Persona 4 or FF6) or an initiative. if they will be the ones who touch you, then you'll get a pincer attack. if they touch you from behind, a character will be put under "Stunned" status and the battle will be a back attack kind.
- I'll just put enough for the map. maybe i'll make some respawn after some minutes so the player can get a bit more exp, but only a limited number of respawns (like 3 or 4).
post=102806post=102795Exactly. I agree with the entirety of your sentiments :P. Most of what you mentioned is evident in Balmung Cycle.
Long post from Kaempfer.
Also, I would like to add something. It would be great if levels were designed to offer routes or 'actions' that allow the player to avoid certain enemies (e.g, there is a cliff-pass in which the player must traverse, and there are two routes that the player can take. He can choose to either traverse a pit full of monsters/enemies to reach the other side, or he can use a 'zip-line' to pass over the enemies). You could add, in addition to this, a point-based system in which you earn 'points' (along with experience) from each monster/enemy you defeat. You can then utilise these 'points' to access special routes that will allow you to reach an area easier, as well as avoiding enemies. Of course, these special routes would require a certain number of 'points' in order for the player to use them.
It's just an idea :P.
This is how Karsuman and I are using Feats in our current game. They're like a mix of this and Psy abilities in the Golden Sun series. You won't actually see all monsters (we're doing a Chrono Trigger-style encounter system, but enemies don't respawn), but chances are there will be less monsters if you blow up the rubble blocking that second path and go through there. Using Feats is also the only way to get to minibosses and the best chests. In order to use Feats, like you said, you must have enough points of some sort that we haven't decided yet - just that you are going to get these points mostly from enemies.
Chrono Trigger encounters were bomb, not so much because of the encounter method, but because the enemy placement was key to range/spread attacks. I don't know how one could implement this without a CBS, but it would be sweet.
Generally though, I like the sound of Craze's method. It's like encounters based on foresight. Although, the player who chooses wisely also misses out on an EXP opportunity, which could make things more difficult.
Generally though, I like the sound of Craze's method. It's like encounters based on foresight. Although, the player who chooses wisely also misses out on an EXP opportunity, which could make things more difficult.
While some battles will be skippable and battles never respawn, there are level caps for each chapter of the game. You'll know when you don't need to fight any longer.
post=103011
While some battles will be skippable and battles never respawn, there are level caps for each chapter of the game. You'll know when you don't need to fight any longer.
B-but, what if I want to fight?
I almost quit FFT right after I started playing because I thought the battles weren't repeatable. Level caps suck..
It's something I'm thinking of myself, as I had touch encounters for PB and am planning this as well for my own project. I don't think you can please everyone whichever way you do it, but I try to go with what I like to do in a game.
What I liked from Seiken Densetsu 3 is that they showed the enemy levels, so you can fight as much as you want to and you'll know whether you're overlevelled or not and don't have to guess or constantly worry about it.
I try to balance the game based on the players having fought like 75% of the battles. I don't put all that many encounters in a map so I'd make the number smaller if I had more battles. But basically I like the player to be able to beat the game on natural levels. Grinding is really a bad way to add to game length.
-The enemy graphics, will you give them variety? What if don't have fitting graphics for the in-battle graphics, will you paint them black? (The Way)I've done a variety of enemy graphics. For my current project, I'm using black fire as a generic enemy sprite because in battle graphics use the actual sprites and take place on the same map. I'm wondering if I should have them just take place on the map once instead of multiple times in which then I wouldn't need touch encounters.
-What is their behavior? How strong is their AI? Wander around, chase you if close? Do they all do the same thing? Some might be passive, others might ambush you, some might attack you after solving a puzzle? Etc.It is possible to do stuff like having them run away if your level is high, or get active if you invade their spot. I usually just have them wandering around and slowly chase you. I'd rather give players the freedom to fight if they want, though I also try to make the rewards worth it. Also, I'm a fan of clearing a dungeon. I don't know if I'd give a reward for that as it may make people feel forced to do it, but I generally like to do it just to feel good and declare the dungeon safe. I don't clear dungeons if the enemies return when you re-enter though.
What I liked from Seiken Densetsu 3 is that they showed the enemy levels, so you can fight as much as you want to and you'll know whether you're overlevelled or not and don't have to guess or constantly worry about it.
-Finally, how do you balance the numbers on each map? How do you make sure the players will get enough exp, or maintain the progression? Do monsters reappear on the map once you leave it? How do you prevent grind abuse?I put 11-13 encounters on a big map, and space them out. Once they die, they're gone for good. So this is about 1-3 encounters on a smaller map then. I modify it as I need to and don't always stick to those numbers, but I think it's a good idea to not put too many. The more there are the less players will feel like fighting them all. It's sort of the same concept as random encounters happening often. The more often they happen the less players will want to fight them. Though I do like to have some optional area where the player can fight or grind as they'd like, but I usually try to make my games on the easier side.
I try to balance the game based on the players having fought like 75% of the battles. I don't put all that many encounters in a map so I'd make the number smaller if I had more battles. But basically I like the player to be able to beat the game on natural levels. Grinding is really a bad way to add to game length.
As someone working with a mixture of battle types, and therefore probably in need of a great deal of (psychological?) help, I'd like to put my own thoughts in.
First, exactly what are you referring to by 'touch' encounters? Onscreen sprites that track the player/run from the player, or statically positioned triggered events? Depending on what scenario you're facing in my game, you can run into either (sometimes both) of those, as well as normal random battles (which can be toggled on/off).
If you're dealing with a moving creature, the graphic will in some way resemble the creature, even if only generically. There will be a set number of these battles where they appear - which won't directly be related to the number of sprites seen on the screen. If you're supposed to deal with five, there might only be two on screen at a time, but defeating one will cause it to respawn a few seconds later somewhere else (representing the next wave) until you've hit the count. (Note: Numbers picked out of thin air, do not apply to game.) Once you've cleared the area of its count, though, there won't be any more. Behavior for these is going to be chosen by what the creature is and what it's supposed to be doing. I hadn't considered the 'directional touch' option for these, but I perhaps should look into it...
If you're dealing with a static battle point, it will be an environmental feature - stepping on or pushing into a spiderweb, for example, gets you into battle with the web's owner. Any web, not just the one(s) belonging to 'teh gihugic spidors of DOOM!'(TM). Barring storyline changes, static points are eternal; step away, step back, repeat until satisfied.
First, exactly what are you referring to by 'touch' encounters? Onscreen sprites that track the player/run from the player, or statically positioned triggered events? Depending on what scenario you're facing in my game, you can run into either (sometimes both) of those, as well as normal random battles (which can be toggled on/off).
If you're dealing with a moving creature, the graphic will in some way resemble the creature, even if only generically. There will be a set number of these battles where they appear - which won't directly be related to the number of sprites seen on the screen. If you're supposed to deal with five, there might only be two on screen at a time, but defeating one will cause it to respawn a few seconds later somewhere else (representing the next wave) until you've hit the count. (Note: Numbers picked out of thin air, do not apply to game.) Once you've cleared the area of its count, though, there won't be any more. Behavior for these is going to be chosen by what the creature is and what it's supposed to be doing. I hadn't considered the 'directional touch' option for these, but I perhaps should look into it...
If you're dealing with a static battle point, it will be an environmental feature - stepping on or pushing into a spiderweb, for example, gets you into battle with the web's owner. Any web, not just the one(s) belonging to 'teh gihugic spidors of DOOM!'(TM). Barring storyline changes, static points are eternal; step away, step back, repeat until satisfied.






















