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SIDE QUESTS: WHY?
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kentona
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Kaempfer
1932
I guess the only really obvious use for side quests is to let the player level a little more than he or she would be able to in the main story, but I still think for other uses (especially anything story related) the main quest should be expanded and incorporate those side-stories, rather than letting them hang loose.
Darken
3952
post=108382
Zelda is a perfect example. While many of the puzzles had nothing to do with the slash/magic/potions that made up the battle system,
What.
Drakonais
2787
So... Zelda was a bad example, but what are your thoughts about puzzles as barriers to progression? Particularly in an RM game.
Kaempfer
1932
I love puzzles. Puzzles are great. If you are worried about a puzzle being too hard/too boring for the player to figure out, then have an alternate route for them. I strongly suggest you stay away from "timing" puzzles and focus on logic puzzles, since RM* is better suited to them. Pretty much every timing puzzle I have played has been awful, whereas even the most boring of logic puzzle (like... push some rocks) is a welcome little treat.
thedjt
622
The way I use Side Quests at the moment is actually to work around with the plot almost as an alternate way to learn of a certain thing to help you on the path to where you need to go. I am terrible with thinking up puzzles I'd I've tried the Infamous Ice slide puzzle and the box moving puzzle. As long as they don't drag out for ages then you're right they're welcome to break up areas.
post=108452
I love puzzles. Puzzles are great. If you are worried about a puzzle being too hard/too boring for the player to figure out, then have an alternate route for them. I strongly suggest you stay away from "timing" puzzles and focus on logic puzzles, since RM* is better suited to them. Pretty much every timing puzzle I have played has been awful, whereas even the most boring of logic puzzle (like... push some rocks) is a welcome little treat.
This was my reasoning in Diablocide. People were like TRAPS SUCK AND OTHERWISE YOU WALK. Now each tier of play has a little logic puzzle and the same people were freaking out because suddenly they had to think outside of battle. =P
I completely despise puzzles when not placed properly. I don't really like them to begin with, but in cases like Wild Arms where EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DUNGEON is a puzzle? Fuck you. Actually you know what I'll just be straight; puzzles for the sake of puzzles alone are goddamn awful.
It's like having sex with your girlfriend and halfway into it she makes you do a crossword puzzle before you get to finish.
It's like having sex with your girlfriend and halfway into it she makes you do a crossword puzzle before you get to finish.
Neophyte
155
Most RM games are extremely linear. Unless someone can prove otherwise, I'm sure that nobody here likes to jam optional sidequests into their game.
Here's the thing, though. I think deep down, as players, we need to create some sort of side quest when playing a game. I'm not talking about going to a guild and signing up for "KILL 30 RATS", but when that option isn't there, we will automatically create our own side quests (only if the game is enjoyable of course). If you think about it, treasure chests, shops, talking to npcs, reaching a certain level, and even fighting monsters visible on the plane can be side quests. There needs to be something outside of the main quest to mess around with. Sticking with one type of food to eat for the whole week isn't fun; there needs to be something to give you a rest from the norm. The storyline (at this point) isn't even relevant because this is more of a psychological thing, if you know what I mean. This is why achievements and trophies were made in our current console generation.
I'm just throwing that out there even though it doesn't answer your question. :)
Also Feld, you could plug in any other word to replace puzzles (battles, towns, cutscenes) and get a similar result. I would agree most are terrible, but that's only because the effort put into the puzzles isn't the same effort put into battles or any other mechanic.
Here's the thing, though. I think deep down, as players, we need to create some sort of side quest when playing a game. I'm not talking about going to a guild and signing up for "KILL 30 RATS", but when that option isn't there, we will automatically create our own side quests (only if the game is enjoyable of course). If you think about it, treasure chests, shops, talking to npcs, reaching a certain level, and even fighting monsters visible on the plane can be side quests. There needs to be something outside of the main quest to mess around with. Sticking with one type of food to eat for the whole week isn't fun; there needs to be something to give you a rest from the norm. The storyline (at this point) isn't even relevant because this is more of a psychological thing, if you know what I mean. This is why achievements and trophies were made in our current console generation.
I'm just throwing that out there even though it doesn't answer your question. :)
Also Feld, you could plug in any other word to replace puzzles (battles, towns, cutscenes) and get a similar result. I would agree most are terrible, but that's only because the effort put into the puzzles isn't the same effort put into battles or any other mechanic.
post=109383
It's like having sex with your girlfriend and halfway into it she makes you do a crossword cutscene before you get to finish.
Neo: I do exactly that when I play games. Etrian Odyssey II makes me do horrible things to my party with my own twisted motives in mind (FILL UP YOUR ENTIRE BAG WITHOUT A SURVIVIALIST, BEAST OR DROP+ PASSIVE. GO!).
The same analogy is made with stories and RPGs; "Its like reading a novel and having to do a crossword puzzle to flip to the next page!!111" That always bugged me, since the reverse is what is actually true. I am happily doing a crossword puzzle and then I have to read a short story to get the next clue.
/tangent
/tangent
Darken
3952
fuck it guys i'm just going to make a game where you just walk in a straight line til you get to the finish, variety is a terrible thing.
Kaempfer
1932
post=109383
It's like having sex with your girlfriend and halfway into it she makes you do a crossword puzzle before you get to finish.
It's like having sex with your girlfriend and halfway into it she makes you PLAY AN RPGMAKER GAME TO COMPLETION before you get to finish.
1) Don't ever equate any video game (RPGMAKER?!) to sex every again
2) It ain't all about crossing the finish line
post=109410
fuck it guys i'm just going to make a game where you just walk in a straight line til you get to the finish, variety is a terrible thing.
You can have variety, but don't dress a straight line up like a fork in the road and tell me to choose.
edit: You didn't change the value of the crossword puzzle so I am guessing the value of sex remains in line; you gotta remember common denominators!
Darken
3952
post=109420
You can have variety, but don't dress a straight line up like a fork in the road and tell me to choose.
I was addressing the point that people have different views on how games should be paced and setup so it's impossible to have a game to satisfy everyone except
post=109417
http://www.sophiehoulden.com/games/thelinearrpg/
100 POINTS TO CRAZE
Kaempfer
1932
post=109421
I was addressing the point that people have different views on how games should be paced and setup so it's impossible to have a game to satisfy everyone except
HAPPY MEDIUM
I just think that everybody should play The World Ends With You and learn how to make an engaging game that takes tropes and punches them into oblivion. It has riddles, it has battles, it has adventure, it has fashionable equipment, it has modifiable gameplay (oh I think I'll decrease my HP for this self-determined chain of four battles, multiplying the drop rate so that I can get that final M pin I need that these enemies only drop on Hard...), it's pretty great overall. Sit down, play and take notes.
I believe that if a game is good enough, you don't need side quests or optional bosses or whatever, unless it's the main draw (see: FFX-2, Visions & Voices) and intertwined with the game itself (in FFX-2, it's all about seeing how Spira has been affected, and in V&V it's about surviving and risking your life to go and find new methods of survival). In most games, this is done badly and I only doing the main quest OR don't do anything. In FFXII I don't hunt marks because it's so separate from the actual game, and in Oblivion I don't do the main quest because there's no reason or drive to. To bring TWEWY into this, the "sidequests" involve SHOPPING, which is a major part of the game. It's soo much a part of the game that the main menu features a map displaying what each region of the game's world currently thinks is the hottest fashion. In fact, while the storyline is driving and powerful enough by itself, you'll find yourself justifying doing a little grinding just to buy that one pair of pants you've been dying to get.
I believe that if a game is good enough, you don't need side quests or optional bosses or whatever, unless it's the main draw (see: FFX-2, Visions & Voices) and intertwined with the game itself (in FFX-2, it's all about seeing how Spira has been affected, and in V&V it's about surviving and risking your life to go and find new methods of survival). In most games, this is done badly and I only doing the main quest OR don't do anything. In FFXII I don't hunt marks because it's so separate from the actual game, and in Oblivion I don't do the main quest because there's no reason or drive to. To bring TWEWY into this, the "sidequests" involve SHOPPING, which is a major part of the game. It's soo much a part of the game that the main menu features a map displaying what each region of the game's world currently thinks is the hottest fashion. In fact, while the storyline is driving and powerful enough by itself, you'll find yourself justifying doing a little grinding just to buy that one pair of pants you've been dying to get.
I seem to be pretty late to this arguement but it seems like a couple of important points have been overlooked.
Side quests can exist in a game for a variety of reasons, not simply to pad the play time artificially beyond the main quest. Side quests can exist to offer variety to the player, if they're getting sick of chasing Sephiroth around they might enjoy the opportunity to race chocobos or snowboard or whatever.
Sidequests can also exist to offer the player an optional way to increase their power. If they're having trouble beating boss x, but there's a treasure in the Water Cave that exploits Boss X's weakness, it might very well be worth your time to go get that treasure even i it isn't part of the main quest.
Finally, side quests that are required to beat the game aren't really side quests. If you look at FF6, in the second half of the game the entire world is filled with sidequests for your party to increase their power to challenge the final boss. They can run around gathering their allies, which is what most people will do. But they can also dive into the Sunken Castle for the Offering, the Cultist Tower for the Gem Box, or hunt down all the Espers scattered across the world and learn some ridiculously powerful spells. None of this is required to beat the game, and in fact doing all of it makes the game really easy, but there's little question that all of it is very rewarding and helpful in its own ways, and the fact that you can do it in whatever order you please just gives the player more freedom. As tardis pointed out, if you just park your airship and grind dinosaurs for four hours, that's a lot less interesting.
FF6 did some other interesting things, too. If you brought Edgar and Sabin to Figaro Castle, you'll see a little cutscene that shows some of their history together. There's also a sidequest involving hunting down a monster that Strago has been hunting for years. Defeating this creature offers little in the way of real rewards, but doing it gives the player some insight into Strago's youth. Sleeping at an Inn with Shadow reveals some cryptic dream sequences that reveal the man he once was. These are completely optional and don't affect the game in anyway, but it's all there if you want to see it. Rather than shoe-horning all these scenes into the main plot, players who go looking for character development will find it while players who could care less can skip it with no consequences.
If a developer gives any thought to their sidequests, they can be very nice additions. If a developer throws something together for the sake of having sidequests, then of course it's going to be boring.
Side quests can exist in a game for a variety of reasons, not simply to pad the play time artificially beyond the main quest. Side quests can exist to offer variety to the player, if they're getting sick of chasing Sephiroth around they might enjoy the opportunity to race chocobos or snowboard or whatever.
Sidequests can also exist to offer the player an optional way to increase their power. If they're having trouble beating boss x, but there's a treasure in the Water Cave that exploits Boss X's weakness, it might very well be worth your time to go get that treasure even i it isn't part of the main quest.
Finally, side quests that are required to beat the game aren't really side quests. If you look at FF6, in the second half of the game the entire world is filled with sidequests for your party to increase their power to challenge the final boss. They can run around gathering their allies, which is what most people will do. But they can also dive into the Sunken Castle for the Offering, the Cultist Tower for the Gem Box, or hunt down all the Espers scattered across the world and learn some ridiculously powerful spells. None of this is required to beat the game, and in fact doing all of it makes the game really easy, but there's little question that all of it is very rewarding and helpful in its own ways, and the fact that you can do it in whatever order you please just gives the player more freedom. As tardis pointed out, if you just park your airship and grind dinosaurs for four hours, that's a lot less interesting.
FF6 did some other interesting things, too. If you brought Edgar and Sabin to Figaro Castle, you'll see a little cutscene that shows some of their history together. There's also a sidequest involving hunting down a monster that Strago has been hunting for years. Defeating this creature offers little in the way of real rewards, but doing it gives the player some insight into Strago's youth. Sleeping at an Inn with Shadow reveals some cryptic dream sequences that reveal the man he once was. These are completely optional and don't affect the game in anyway, but it's all there if you want to see it. Rather than shoe-horning all these scenes into the main plot, players who go looking for character development will find it while players who could care less can skip it with no consequences.
If a developer gives any thought to their sidequests, they can be very nice additions. If a developer throws something together for the sake of having sidequests, then of course it's going to be boring.
Kaempfer
1932
Yeah, but two of the major points there are: a) minigames (not really sidequests so much as side-playmodes) and b) FF6. If a game is half as good as FF6 then it's got nothing to worry about.
I agree completely about optional backstory, and maybe I wasn't so clear but my major gripe with sidequests is given sidequests. I think I mentioned somewhere earlier that sidequests you stumble upon and complete in that region (like FF6's) are the best way to do it, I just have a gripe with hub locations doling out missions to kill rats or collect meat. A few of these are OK, but they get boring.
Missions that you come upon through regular exploring (if a certain set of criteria are met) I view more secret quests than sidequests. I think for me it's the nomenclature that is throwing people off, since I do enjoy a good side quests now again. I just hate fetch quests and when people use sidequests as a crutch to avoid tying storylines together (go about your business, this is unrelated to what's happening, please forget about it after I give you this bag of gold). There is a right place and a wrong place for every detail of a game, and I think the more interesting things happening in the main story, the better. Maybe it's because I always do all the sidequests and am sort of upset when they lead to 0 progression in the main plotline.
I agree completely about optional backstory, and maybe I wasn't so clear but my major gripe with sidequests is given sidequests. I think I mentioned somewhere earlier that sidequests you stumble upon and complete in that region (like FF6's) are the best way to do it, I just have a gripe with hub locations doling out missions to kill rats or collect meat. A few of these are OK, but they get boring.
Missions that you come upon through regular exploring (if a certain set of criteria are met) I view more secret quests than sidequests. I think for me it's the nomenclature that is throwing people off, since I do enjoy a good side quests now again. I just hate fetch quests and when people use sidequests as a crutch to avoid tying storylines together (go about your business, this is unrelated to what's happening, please forget about it after I give you this bag of gold). There is a right place and a wrong place for every detail of a game, and I think the more interesting things happening in the main story, the better. Maybe it's because I always do all the sidequests and am sort of upset when they lead to 0 progression in the main plotline.
