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STANDARDS
Posts
Yoshio
774
Yoshio
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CloseI just try to do the best I can.
I'm pretty laid back when it comes to this sort of thing, though people have told me that I should have higher standards when it comes to grammar (just about the only thing I don't give much of an ass about, everything else I take pretty seriously)
I'm pretty laid back when it comes to this sort of thing, though people have told me that I should have higher standards when it comes to grammar (just about the only thing I don't give much of an ass about, everything else I take pretty seriously)
post=117949
I generally like to see that someone actually put some thought into their characters/narrative/mechanics. This happens frighteningly less often than most would probably expect.
Not to rehash a pretty torturous discussion, but...you are lying here. Without even getting into mechanics, I put years and years of thought and effort into my characters and story (to say nothing of being widely praised for them) and that in no way shape or form satisfied you. In fact, those three things (characters/narrative/mechanics) were my top priorities for all of my pre-2008 projects. So maybe you really mean "characters, narrative, and mechanics must be perfectly implemented, tailored to my personal tastes, accessible, not frustrating, and not strike me in any way as unoriginal. This happens frighteningly less often than most would probably expect".
Oh well, let's not get personal. I just saw that and felt really compelled to kind of call bullshit.
I think this broader discussion of standards is an important topic (although it is somewhat vague if it's supposed to be about your standards of your work or for other people's work, since each could be a topic on its own). It reminds me of something I wanted to do before I left RMN, which was try and standardize the review rubrics...I think inequitable review standards are a problem on this site, where reviews are important because they determine ratings and ratings are important because they determine downloads. Since downloads are important because they increase a game's chance of being reviewed the system somewhat feeds back into itself.
I don't remember mentioning you in that post at all. =)
And I kind of agree with you on the non-standardized reviews but standardizing them would probably lead to a whole new set of problems.
And I kind of agree with you on the non-standardized reviews but standardizing them would probably lead to a whole new set of problems.
Oh, I know in this case I was the one who brought me specifically up. Your post was just a generalization. : )
Anyway, I think that the process of standardizing the reviews would present a lot of problems (one reason I haven't tried to present a plan for it yet)- and it probably would not be "Backwards Compatible". But I'm not convinced that if it could be done, it wouldn't be an improvement.
Anyway, I think that the process of standardizing the reviews would present a lot of problems (one reason I haven't tried to present a plan for it yet)- and it probably would not be "Backwards Compatible". But I'm not convinced that if it could be done, it wouldn't be an improvement.
Oh well, let's not get personal. I just saw that and felt really compelled to kind of call bullshit.likewise bro. you are displaying a fairly ridiculous attitude to soli's reviews / criticism in general
post=124768post=117949Not to rehash a pretty torturous discussion, but...you are lying here.
I generally like to see that someone actually put some thought into their characters/narrative/mechanics. This happens frighteningly less often than most would probably expect.
No he's not. He is saying in general, not specifically targeting you. Why is this suddenly a personal affront? You don't need to flaunt your hours and praise here.
Craze
No he's not. He is saying in general, not specifically targeting you. Why is this suddenly a personal affront? You don't need to flaunt your hours and praise here.
You have to admit, this is pretty funny coming from you, Craze. =P
Back onto the main topic before this trails off into oblivion, everyone has different tastes, and what some people will find amazing others will find abhorrent. I have witnessed this happen personally several times. That's why I do not put much stock in empty praise that is void of any meaningful content. If the person can't tell you specifically what they liked (or hated!) about something or why, then that isn't very worthwhile feedback. This is part of the reason why I find it so offensive that
Nightblade
2723
I believe that having very high standards for one's own work is almost prohibitive to actually releasing anything complete. I won't use the word prohibitive
...But you just did, what the fuc-
but I will say antithetical.
That's a really shitty way to look at things.
All of the real "perfectionists" I know, often with very impressive projects, have never actually finished anything. Obviously this statement is meant to describe RM but in my experience it applies to writing just as much;
I see the point you're trying to make, overly ambitious projects tend to bite off more than they can chew and are thus never completed. Unfortunately, this is a gross oversimplification. Ambition is a good thing, and should be encouraged. If you have the ability to do something well within a reasonable time frame, you should be doing it. Like a lot of things, it requires a fine balance, especially when you're working alone. When you're working alone, spend time on the things that you think matter most. Sometimes it's fun to add extra polish to something or add some nice effect; but going too far can lead the author down a bad road.
it is pretty much an accepted fact that a first draft, at least, can't be finished without throwing your standards out the window.
Once again, I must
I can guarantee you that nobody worth a shit - EVER - throws away their standards while writing ANYTHING.
post=124836
what are you talking about craze you know the world revolves around legion right!?!?
I think he might not have gotten the memo.
Hearing that people like your work is nice, but it isn't useful.
Strongly disagree. For people to make better games, they have to keep making games. And for people to keep making games, they have to receive non-trivial encouragement. Hence, hearing that people like your work is useful, is in fact nigh essential. Facile argument here is that I'm projecting my feelings on others so let me straw man that shit; I am 100% sure I am not the only one who feels this way.
Once again, I must respectfully ask "what the fuck does that mean?". You throw away your standards...? When you're writing a first draft, you don't throw away your standards - you're writing it because it seems like a good idea at the time. Going back and correcting and refining once, twice or however many times is necessary is a standard technique.
I can guarantee you that nobody worth a shit - EVER - throws away their standards while writing ANYTHING.
Most writers I've talked to including most of my professors agree that it's impossible to write anything while in a critical mindset. Like Stephen King says in On Writing you have to "close the door" on all possible negativity and doubts or you will NEVER GET THAT SHIT DONE. "Standards" come later, when you are editing and revising. Standards are counterproductive to the completion of a first draft. If you second guess yourself when you are writing something, you're fucking with your chances of finishing it. I honestly don't recommend even GOING BACK AND READING what you've written until you have the first draft on paper. It's too easy to get into the mindset of "this is shit! this is shit! this is shit! what the fuck am I doing!?" and scrap all of it.
I see the point you're trying to make, overly ambitious projects tend to bite off more than they can chew and are thus never completed. Unfortunately, this is a gross oversimplification. Ambition is a good thing, and should be encouraged. If you have the ability to do something well within a reasonable time frame, you should be doing it. Like a lot of things, it requires a fine balance, especially when you're working alone. When you're working alone, spend time on the things that you think matter most. Sometimes it's fun to add extra polish to something or add some nice effect; but going too far can lead the author down a bad road.
You're talking about ambition, I'm talking about perfectionism. Someone who is overly ambitious might never finish a project because it has 100+ hours of gameplay, 100+ playable characters, and 100+ side quests; in any case it's likely to be sloppy as shit. A perfectionist might fail to finish a moire reasonable 10 hour project because they need to get everything ABSOLUTELY 1000% perfect. Being an ambitious perfectionist makes actually finishing anything ALMOST impossible. I'm sure it has happened, but I think I could make a case that we can count the times it's happened on one hand if we restrict ourselves to the microcosm of this community.
Nightblade
2723
Strongly disagree. For people to make better games, they have to keep making games. And for people to keep making games, they have to receive non-trivial encouragement. Hence, hearing that people like your work is useful, is in fact nigh essential. Facile argument here is that I'm projecting my feelings on others so let me straw man that shit; I am 100% sure I am not the only one who feels this way.
If there are people who can't take criticism - however it may be packaged; they shouldn't be making anything. At all. If you want try a positive reinforcement approach; that is your prerogative; however - people need to be challenged. You're not challenged when sugar coated words and unearned praise is flung around. "Effort" isn't enough. The desire to improve and challenging yourself is important.
Most writers I've talked to including most of my professors agree that it's impossible to write anything while in a critical mindset. Like Stephen King says in On Writing you have to "close the door" on all possible negativity and doubts or you will NEVER GET THAT SHIT DONE.
"Standards" come later, when you are editing and revising. Standards are counterproductive to the completion of a first draft. If you second guess yourself when you are writing something, you're fucking with your chances of finishing it. I honestly don't recommend even GOING BACK AND READING what you've written until you have the first draft on paper. It's too easy to get into the mindset of "this is shit! this is shit! this is shit! what the fuck am I doing!?" and scrap all of it.
Incidentally; I don't care about the people who have patience enough to converse with you real life; nor the people you pay(id) exorbitant amounts of money to teach you something that cannot be taught. I will however address the Stephen King quote and will ask for a source; as I could not find one with the information you provided. You noted earlier that you "Throw away your standards". What King is referring to isn't as stupidly drastic as throwing away one's standards. Loosening one's standards would be a more accurate description; and while I can see the merits of this approach - I personally don't agree with it. Different techniques work for different people; but that's a topic for another day.
You're talking about ambition, I'm talking about perfectionism. Someone who is overly ambitious might never finish a project because it has 100+ hours of gameplay, 100+ playable characters, and 100+ side quests; in any case it's likely to be sloppy as shit. A perfectionist might fail to finish a moire reasonable 10 hour project because they need to get everything ABSOLUTELY 1000% perfect. Being an ambitious perfectionist makes actually finishing anything ALMOST impossible. I'm sure it has happened, but I think I could make a case that we can count the times it's happened on one hand if we restrict ourselves to the microcosm of this community.
...And we can count the other cases with the very same hand in this "microcosm" of this community.
Ambition and Perfectionism are two sides of the same coin.
Its awesome how you can't handle how my opinion isn't yours so you resort to unbelievably below the belt personal attacks.
Seriously, the opinions of everyone I have met in my life are automatically invalid because I know them?
Why are you such a fucking cunt.
Seriously, the opinions of everyone I have met in my life are automatically invalid because I know them?
Why are you such a fucking cunt.
Well that's easy, it's because I am better than you (not the general you, Nightblade; YOU, personally) which is also easy.
Nightblade
2723
post=124881
Well that's easy, it's because I am better than you (not the general you, Nightblade; YOU, personally) which is also easy.
That's nice, you can keep telling yourself that as you crawl back into whatever hole you've been hiding in; only to re-emerge once someone writes a poor review of some other self indulgent piece of trash you put out... Or the same piece of self indulgent trash.
nightblade, you give me a reason to live, seriously. whether or not i agree with the points you make in your posts, they are always well-structured and honestly, hilariously presented.
getting this topic back on, well... topic:
as far as my personal standards, this goes for RM more than anything, any game i am even going to consider picking up has to be pretty. very pretty. i have somewhat grossly high aesthetic standards when it comes to video games, RM games especially. so if you have the next great vx rtp/refmap adventure, i will not be playing your game. not to say that games that use the vx rtp/refmap tiles are bad, it's just your game looks exactly the same as every other vx rtp/refmap game ever. it's just my personal preference.
thoughts on aesthetics/visual first impressions, y'all?
getting this topic back on, well... topic:
as far as my personal standards, this goes for RM more than anything, any game i am even going to consider picking up has to be pretty. very pretty. i have somewhat grossly high aesthetic standards when it comes to video games, RM games especially. so if you have the next great vx rtp/refmap adventure, i will not be playing your game. not to say that games that use the vx rtp/refmap tiles are bad, it's just your game looks exactly the same as every other vx rtp/refmap game ever. it's just my personal preference.
thoughts on aesthetics/visual first impressions, y'all?
