WHY DOES DYING HAVE TO SUCK?

post=133539
That's an okay analogy! And the answer to that in games nowadays is 'save points' The concept of a save point in a strategically placed area allows the player to play that guy who's better at you in basketball with little fuss.

I think if you had a save point two steps before every boss, no dialogue before you hit the battle, plus maybe dungeon-escape items available, most people in this thread would not complain at all! Retry/autosave is mostly preferable because it saves you the time navigating a save menu before every boss.



As for harsher penalties... remember we're talking about single-player RPGs here. If you lose a battle, it's not like the game can reach out of the screen and punch you, or you won't be able to make the state championship this year. There's basically only one thing a single-player RPG can ever do to you: have you spend time on it and not advance. The only question is, how much time and what do you spend it doing?

Maybe you get kicked out to the nearest town or the beginning of the dungeon, then to get back to the boss spend some time wading through encounters you've already fought once or twice and hence mastered. Because that's about the longevity of a standard RPG enemy group.
Maybe you calculate that playing more cautiously will actually take less time than recovering from failures! Except that in a lot of RPGs playing more cautiously is not really a tactical choice. It just means you go out, grind something, and then try the dungeon overleveled with extra items - you're spending time to make the whole experience more boring.
Or maybe you're given the chance to try again right from the point you haven't managed to figure out yet! This puts some constraints on the designer (e.g., don't give the player "Win Button", 9999 MP, wins any battle 20% of the time), and if I continue to have trouble I still may have to back off and gather resources, but generally this sounds like a far more interesting way to use my time.


Roguelikes of course tend to feature the ultimate death penalty, but the better ones are able to make playing cautiously a more tactical choice. Perhaps you have to watch your available food, or monsters will respawn, or the ghost will come after you if you take too long, etc.
(Level select like Spelunky's shortcuts is also great. Using shortcuts gives me a position clearly inferior to someone who ran perfectly from the start, but they let me see new things, and practice on later areas without always running the starting areas first.)


So instant retry isn't a solution for everything, but a whole lot of RPGs could benefit from it. The player having the freedom to fail is just as much a benefit for the designer trying to make interesting challenges as the player trying to navigate them.

post=133579

As for harsher penalties... remember we're talking about single-player RPGs here. If you lose a battle, it's not like the game can reach out of the screen and punch you, or you won't be able to make the state championship this year. There's basically only one thing a single-player RPG can ever do to you: have you spend time on it and not advance. The only question is, how much time and what do you spend it doing?

I understand what you're saying, but it boils down to the fact that I don't mind losing if I'm not good enough to meet the challenge that a particular game presents to me. Upon losing a game, there should really only be two options; 1. Give up 2. Get better. Besides in the case of games that are unfair or have fake/bullshit difficulty, I've never had a problem with this dichotomy!

Yes, there are a few games in which I put down because I just couldn't beat them, but most of the time I don't blame the game. It's my fault for not being able to adapt to a fair challenge. The game just isn't for me. That's fine with me! I don't expect the game to pander to my ineptitude and none of you should either.

so what does this have to do with retry v. game over

:<

Play Romancing Saga: Minstrel Song. Or any of the Saga games, really. It's a pretty good example of an RPG where grinding in some cases cannot help you.

so what does this have to do with retry v. game over

:<

See F-G's latest argument.

bahleted

post=133582
so what does this have to do with retry v. game over

:<

Also not to be a dick Craze you know I love you but honestly my post you quoted had nothing to do with retry v. game over on purpose. This topic, nor the world doesn't revolve around you buddy!

post=133583
I have games like this too, but in the standard menu-driven RPG all too often the options are actually: 1. Give up; 2. Acquire better numbers without actually getting better; 3. Wade through useless crap imposed on me by a death penalty until I have the chance again to try to get better.

If you die in a dungeon and literally the only way you can do better is grinding, it's an issue of terrible design, not the system used.

Edits galore: "Cautious play" means not mashing attack or BIGDAMAGESPELL on everything

bahleted

Dammit, Feld, you are the most reasonable and commendable person on RMN. Let's be friends.

Aww. A friendship is born. At Craze's expense, I see. ;)