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CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.
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1
Feldschlacht IV
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CloseHey guys.
I've been playing RPGs and other plot oriented games for a long time, and I think one of my absolute favorite storytelling tools is character development. It's one thing to write a general sequence of events that carries a story along, it's another thing to write dialogue for your characters, and it's even another to give your characters believable, relatable personalities. However, it's something else to have the skill or the acuity to be able to write a character that realistically changes throughout the story as a response to events, other characters, or simply age.
This is a mainstay in RPGs, and while some do it better than others, it's always refreshing to see. For example, seeing a main character go from a punk bitch to a badass that's not to be fucked with gradually over dozens of hours (and not from some overnight event or transformation) is a great example of character development. Of course, it's not the only valid one, an asshole gaining some humanity, the naive chick hardening up, the one minded antagonist opening his eyes, I think being able to write realistic characters that can, and do change as a result of their environments is a skill that we should all pay a little bit more attention to.
I'd like to add that not ALL characters need to be developed. Character development shouldn't be forced, it should have a narrative reason. Case in point, in Final Fantasy X, Tidus goes from a whiny crybaby to a level headed, brave hero, but Auron starts off a badass, and stays a badass. He didn't get any character development, because he didn't need it. Actually, his character development is all backstage, an astute player can go through that sidequest where you can find recordings of him as an idealistic, louder, naive young man (which he no longer is), but in the main narrative, his development is finalized.
Character development has to serve a purpose. Just keep that in mind. Discuss!
I've been playing RPGs and other plot oriented games for a long time, and I think one of my absolute favorite storytelling tools is character development. It's one thing to write a general sequence of events that carries a story along, it's another thing to write dialogue for your characters, and it's even another to give your characters believable, relatable personalities. However, it's something else to have the skill or the acuity to be able to write a character that realistically changes throughout the story as a response to events, other characters, or simply age.
This is a mainstay in RPGs, and while some do it better than others, it's always refreshing to see. For example, seeing a main character go from a punk bitch to a badass that's not to be fucked with gradually over dozens of hours (and not from some overnight event or transformation) is a great example of character development. Of course, it's not the only valid one, an asshole gaining some humanity, the naive chick hardening up, the one minded antagonist opening his eyes, I think being able to write realistic characters that can, and do change as a result of their environments is a skill that we should all pay a little bit more attention to.
I'd like to add that not ALL characters need to be developed. Character development shouldn't be forced, it should have a narrative reason. Case in point, in Final Fantasy X, Tidus goes from a whiny crybaby to a level headed, brave hero, but Auron starts off a badass, and stays a badass. He didn't get any character development, because he didn't need it. Actually, his character development is all backstage, an astute player can go through that sidequest where you can find recordings of him as an idealistic, louder, naive young man (which he no longer is), but in the main narrative, his development is finalized.
Character development has to serve a purpose. Just keep that in mind. Discuss!
Neophyte
155
Feld, you forgot interactions between the party members! IMO, that is the best form of character development. The formula of acting hard/being something you're not in front of the party and then eventually revealing how you really feel (because of the stress of the situation, etc) never gets old and works. And when the person playing knows a characters secret but the other party members don't. I forgot what they call that in storytelling, but it works really well. I rarely ever care about the actual story in games (because they are shit honestly), the characters are 99x more interesting.
Reading books help. A lot.
Reading books help. A lot.
Pokemaniac
3559
post=146176
And when the person playing knows a characters secret but the other party members don't. I forgot what they call that in storytelling, but it works really well.
Dramatic irony?
post=146174
What is there to discuss? Everything you've said is correct. That I can't actually do it, despite knowing how, is the silly thing.
Aww come on, there's a lot to discuss! Don't let me off that easy. If you can't do it, maybe this is the topic to bounce some thoughts around, who knows, there may be others with the exact same problem.
post=146176
Feld, you forgot interactions between the party members! IMO, that is the best form of character development. The formula of acting hard/being something you're not in front of the party and then eventually revealing how you really feel (because of the stress of the situation, etc) never gets old and works. And when the person playing knows a characters secret but the other party members don't. I forgot what they call that in storytelling, but it works really well. I rarely ever care about the actual story in games (because they are shit honestly), the characters are 99x more interesting.
Reading books help. A lot.
Yes, that is true! However I have to disagree with you on the story part (if the stories weren't interesting in many RPGs, I wouldn't play!), if nothing else because a lot of games don't really have character development. I think it's one of the major things that a lot of video games lack, for some reason.
Also yes, reading books does help quite a bit.
The problem with most RPG Maker RPGs, and most JRPGs to begin with, is that they insert rapid or unrealistic character development just for the sake of having "development". I'd rather have NO character development than unrealistic stuff.
Character development should be realistic and gradual. My protagonists don't really develop so much as they are illuminated; we learn more about their personality, which I find is more interesting than a superficial change. In the end, they reach resolutions that are not the result of changes in personality, but a realization that they had that potential or capability to begin with.
I'm not a big fan of excessive party interaction, unless it serves as a vehicle for exposition. Having an ignorant party member gives me a chance to explain some mythology or historical events that would otherwise be awkward to explain. I prefer "shooting the breeze" left to NPC dialogue, which I usually make somewhat goofy and light-hearted, even in a serious game. I want my parties to be constantly moving or exploring for an important reason. Yes, people have to sleep, but I don't find campside interaction much fun unless it serves a purpose.
The reason 24 is my favorite show is because it's a time-based thriller. They usually cut the bullshit, except for season 6, which is the worst anyway.
The bottom line is that it takes more than 5-10 hours to get to know someone (that's assuming you have 5-10 hours of cutscenes for one character, when it's probably closer to 1). Why change their entire persona if you don't even know who they really are? RPGs are notorious for that. Who would want to watch Lost if Hurley or Sawyer changed into some gangster over the course of the show for the sake of "character development"? Instead, Lost maintains peoples' personalities and characterization, and instead illuminates how they got to that point, and how they are important in the bigger picture. Much more interesting to me. In the end, Jack begins to understand the power of faith in the island, as opposed to science alone, but these types of realizations are gradual, subtle, and realistic.
Character development should be realistic and gradual. My protagonists don't really develop so much as they are illuminated; we learn more about their personality, which I find is more interesting than a superficial change. In the end, they reach resolutions that are not the result of changes in personality, but a realization that they had that potential or capability to begin with.
I'm not a big fan of excessive party interaction, unless it serves as a vehicle for exposition. Having an ignorant party member gives me a chance to explain some mythology or historical events that would otherwise be awkward to explain. I prefer "shooting the breeze" left to NPC dialogue, which I usually make somewhat goofy and light-hearted, even in a serious game. I want my parties to be constantly moving or exploring for an important reason. Yes, people have to sleep, but I don't find campside interaction much fun unless it serves a purpose.
The reason 24 is my favorite show is because it's a time-based thriller. They usually cut the bullshit, except for season 6, which is the worst anyway.
The bottom line is that it takes more than 5-10 hours to get to know someone (that's assuming you have 5-10 hours of cutscenes for one character, when it's probably closer to 1). Why change their entire persona if you don't even know who they really are? RPGs are notorious for that. Who would want to watch Lost if Hurley or Sawyer changed into some gangster over the course of the show for the sake of "character development"? Instead, Lost maintains peoples' personalities and characterization, and instead illuminates how they got to that point, and how they are important in the bigger picture. Much more interesting to me. In the end, Jack begins to understand the power of faith in the island, as opposed to science alone, but these types of realizations are gradual, subtle, and realistic.
post=146207
I'm not a big fan of excessive party interaction, unless it serves as a vehicle for exposition. Having an ignorant party member gives me a chance to explain some mythology or historical events that would otherwise be awkward to explain. I prefer "shooting the breeze" left to NPC dialogue, which I usually make somewhat goofy and light-hearted, even in a serious game. I want my parties to be constantly moving or exploring for an important reason. Yes, people have to sleep, but I don't find campside interaction much fun unless it serves a purpose.
The issue with this is that it often leaves players wondering just WHY this particular group of people decided to risk their lives and band together for whatever purpose. This was one of the biggest complaints about; FFXII, the party didn't really seem to have any real reason for sticking together, making it seem tacked on and fake.
The bottom line is that it takes more than 5-10 hours to get to know someone (that's assuming you have 5-10 hours of cutscenes for one character, when it's probably closer to 1). Why change their entire persona if you don't even know who they really are?
Are you arguing that character development as a tool is pointless?
I've noticed games where the characters have a real camaraderie and brotherhood seem to be a lot well received than games with a bunch of people who just happened to be together.
Shinan
4314
One thing about PC development though is that if it's an RPG where the player is making the decisions (through dialogue trees and similar) there might not be as much development as a designer would like. Of course oftentimes you just shove all the development onto the NPCs. But I have to admit that I wouldn't mind a kind of semi-forced character development even in dialogue tree games.
Of course it might take a lot more work. Basically some kind of system where previous decisions affect what decisions you are allowed to make in the future. If you act like a douchebag for a lot of the game you can't suddenly pick the "nice" options because it would be against the character you've created. Instead you may have to slowly build up to becoming nice after being that douchebag bugger.
The biggest problem in this is how to determine what options are unavailable and what kind of "karma" system you use. Maybe the player would like to play a character who is a douchebag to certain kinds of people (like niggers) but nice to others. How would the game be able to determine that stuff without a lot of extra work.
So I guess the simplest thing is just to let the player handle PC character development. (and possibly influence the development of party members)
Of course it might take a lot more work. Basically some kind of system where previous decisions affect what decisions you are allowed to make in the future. If you act like a douchebag for a lot of the game you can't suddenly pick the "nice" options because it would be against the character you've created. Instead you may have to slowly build up to becoming nice after being that douchebag bugger.
The biggest problem in this is how to determine what options are unavailable and what kind of "karma" system you use. Maybe the player would like to play a character who is a douchebag to certain kinds of people (like niggers) but nice to others. How would the game be able to determine that stuff without a lot of extra work.
So I guess the simplest thing is just to let the player handle PC character development. (and possibly influence the development of party members)
Neophyte
155
Yes, that is true! However I have to disagree with you on the story part (if the stories weren't interesting in many RPGs, I wouldn't play!), if nothing else because a lot of games don't really have character development. I think it's one of the major things that a lot of video games lack, for some reason.
I should probably rephrase that. I meant that bad characters can never make up for a really good storyline. But the opposite somehow holds its own, at least for me. It's probably not a good idea to think of them as two separate aspects when it comes to the full package, though.
and I seemed to have skipped 3rd grade English, thanks pokemaniac.
post=146208post=146207The issue with this is that it often leaves players wondering just WHY this particular group of people decided to risk their lives and band together for whatever purpose. This was one of the biggest complaints about; FFXII, the party didn't really seem to have any real reason for sticking together, making it seem tacked on and fake.
I'm not a big fan of excessive party interaction, unless it serves as a vehicle for exposition. Having an ignorant party member gives me a chance to explain some mythology or historical events that would otherwise be awkward to explain. I prefer "shooting the breeze" left to NPC dialogue, which I usually make somewhat goofy and light-hearted, even in a serious game. I want my parties to be constantly moving or exploring for an important reason. Yes, people have to sleep, but I don't find campside interaction much fun unless it serves a purpose.The bottom line is that it takes more than 5-10 hours to get to know someone (that's assuming you have 5-10 hours of cutscenes for one character, when it's probably closer to 1). Why change their entire persona if you don't even know who they really are?
Are you arguing that character development as a tool is pointless?
I've noticed games where the characters have a real camaraderie and brotherhood seem to be a lot well received than games with a bunch of people who just happened to be together.
Well, if the people are from completely different walks of life and are coming together to save the world or something, then yeah.
That often brings about the most interesting character development. If a group of people from totally different walks of life coming together have nothing to learn from each other or develop on the personal level, sorry to say it, but the world's fate is dependent on a bunch of heroes with Aspergers.
Hell, even the average college student (or more accurately to this situation, military man) will tell you there's a lot to learn and it's a character changing experience to be around people of different backgrounds, much less a bunch of world saving heroes.
Hell, even the average college student (or more accurately to this situation, military man) will tell you there's a lot to learn and it's a character changing experience to be around people of different backgrounds, much less a bunch of world saving heroes.
post=146231
That often brings about the most interesting character development. If a group of people from totally different walks of life coming together have nothing to learn from each other or develop on the personal level, sorry to say it, but the world's fate is dependent on a bunch of heroes with Aspergers.
Hell, even the average college student (or more accurately to this situation, military man) will tell you there's a lot to learn and it's a character changing experience to be around people of different backgrounds, much less a bunch of world saving heroes.
Definitely. It all depends on the type of story being portrayed. If the game focuses on an arrogant cadet morphing into a humble general, then it's absolutely important to document the people and events that changed his persona.
I was talking more about my preference for stories than any set-in-stone rule. I usually prefer plot-driven stories, but to each his own.
Just out of curiosity, what made the military man example relevant to this discussion?
Sure, but I hope you don't mean to imply that plot driven and character driven stories are somehow mutually exclusive!
post=146233
Sure, but I hope you don't mean to imply that plot driven and character driven stories are somehow mutually exclusive!
Nope; they're dependent. By the way, what made the military man example relevant to the discussion? I don't recall talking about it.
By the way, what made the military man example relevant to the discussion? I don't recall talking about it.
Sorry I didn't get to this, I had to step out. I included the military man (as in, a real life guy in the military) as an example because many people in the military experience and meet a wealth of different people and cultures, and experience development on account of it. I mentioned that the military guy is a better analogue to a video game character than a college student because they travel the world, get in hairy situations, and sometimes fight.
post=146244By the way, what made the military man example relevant to the discussion? I don't recall talking about it.Sorry I didn't get to this, I had to step out. I included the military man (as in, a real life guy in the military) as an example because many people in the military experience and meet a wealth of different people and cultures, and experience development on account of it. I mentioned that the military guy is a better analogue to a video game character than a college student because they travel the world, get in hairy situations, and sometimes fight.
Yeah, makes sense.
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