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DISCUSSION ISN'T DRAMA.
Posts
Darken
3952
Darken
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Closepost=149905post=149837This is like comparing the wage of a cleaner in a rich country and a teacher in a poor country and coming to the conclusion that all cleaners make more money than all teachers...
RMN Game page views for Eden Legacy 1 = 19911
RPG Revolution Forum views for Eden Legacy1 = 815
RMN views for deluxe edition = 4895
RPG revolution forum views for deluxe = 873
Looking at these stats I'd hafta say the game pages are by far accomplishing their goal, and I'm guessing you're all having similar results.
Not that I am saying WIP's stats are wrong, your statistical analysis is just flawed.
this is like making an outrageous analogy
Darken
3952
Are you trying to say that taking stats from completely unrelated sources and making a direct comparison isn't an awful way of doing things or are you just being facetious?
No I am saying you should just get to the point like you just did now.
Pokemaniac
3559
post=149911
I find outrageous comparisons to be more effective. Maybe I need to do this in future:
Science dude: <non-obvious concept>
Everyman dude: Just like a <obvious concept>!
Just like in a cheesy sitcom!
post=149907
Interestingly, if you compare forum/gamepage hits from RRR then you'll find that the forum topics get more hits. Does this mean that gamepages are worse in general? No. It just means RRR isn't set-up in a way that makes gamepages visible. Ergo, comparing RRR and RMN is pretty silly.
Curious to see some numbers you are claiming here. The only number I have to go off is what was just said about Eden Legacy which is the opposite of which you have.
post=149528
Behold RMN, where a legitimate concern leads to a stream of one-liners. After just one reply.
...
Many users never participate in discussions unless there's an opportunity to post some "clever" one-liners; mostly disillusioned vets indulge in such behavior (hello, TFT! hello, Karsuman!).
comment=36995
This game is fucking terrible, I'm actually surprised this got as many as 2,5 stars.
Witness the downfall of Legion - from excellent story-driven RPGs and adventure games to terrible gameplay-centric abominations based on awful game-design decisions. From Iron Gaia and Backstage to Mage Duel and To Arms!. Awesome progression, you're maturing as a developer, all right.
Please continue talking as if you did not make the most explosively offensive comment in that To Arms review, DE, and that you are totally not a part of the problem.
RMN is no longer about discussing games and improving oneself; now it's about posting your game and getting no feedback. I blame the game pages. They were supposed to move game discussions from the forums to the front page
This is ridiculous. It is not as they cannot be improved (seriously, if they are THAT bad offer genuine suggestions for improving them), but have you seriously even looked at some of the quality blogs on this site? Mog's is a great example, yes, but look at Skie's, Strangeluv's, Nessiah's and TFT's. Even Max's random class fluff blogs were not a bad attempt at trying to generate discussion/interest in his project. These game pages you so malign give you as the developer the power to bring up specific issues regarding the development process, rather than posting some game topic on RRR's forum or something and getting a bunch of ingenuine responses that consist of "looks good lol". It is just most people do not realize that potentional, instead posting uninteresting things like DEMO WILL BE DONE IN A MONTH REMEMBER ME 'KAY?
post=149958post=149528
Behold RMN, where a legitimate concern leads to a stream of one-liners. After just one reply.
...
Many users never participate in discussions unless there's an opportunity to post some "clever" one-liners; mostly disillusioned vets indulge in such behavior (hello, TFT! hello, Karsuman!).comment=36995
This game is fucking terrible, I'm actually surprised this got as many as 2,5 stars.
Witness the downfall of Legion - from excellent story-driven RPGs and adventure games to terrible gameplay-centric abominations based on awful game-design decisions. From Iron Gaia and Backstage to Mage Duel and To Arms!. Awesome progression, you're maturing as a developer, all right.
Please continue talking as if you did not make the most explosively offensive comment in that To Arms review, DE, and that you are totally not a part of the problem.
hahaha holy shit
post=149952post=149944I'm comparing RRR gamepages with RRR forum posts... not RMN gamepages with RRR forum posts... so of course the Eden Legacy data is different.post=149907Curious to see some numbers you are claiming here. The only number I have to go off is what was just said about Eden Legacy which is the opposite of which you have.
Interestingly, if you compare forum/gamepage hits from RRR then you'll find that the forum topics get more hits. Does this mean that gamepages are worse in general? No. It just means RRR isn't set-up in a way that makes gamepages visible. Ergo, comparing RRR and RMN is pretty silly.
Not that it matters that the RRR vs. RMN data is different since the comparison is meaningless.
Game page profile views were only 844 over there.... anyway, the point I was trying to make is that RMN game pages are not at all a problem for developers, but rather, they are the best tool we have at promoting ourselves. Maybe it is just my particular games, and others have different results... it was just baffling to hear someone complain about the game pages here and wanting forum pages for our games as well.
RMN game pages promote discussion by allowing users to comment on pics and reviews, which as we've seen (this is how this topic got started in the first place) can have some pretty interesting results. Also, I find the game search here rather intuitive, and I always seem to find games that interest me while using it.
S. F. LaValle
1069
Re: Karsu's post - DE may argue that his very strong opinion was a one-liner with substance in relation to the game and its quality. I'd just like to jump ahead and say that Karsu's single-line comments are usually do the same thing.
Regarding the thesis of this topic: I agree that discussion is not drama (that is, the connotation of drama that infers it is a bad thing, as we all understand it, and not the textbook definition kentona and WIP refer to, which is good). I remember thinking the exact same thing DE did when reading Brickroad's blog and the responses to it (RMN is srs biz, lol, arguing on the internet about children's toys is for retards). We're not arguing (discussing) who pew pew'd who and whether or not they had their invisible force field up. We're talking about real artistic merit, and as Max will tell you, plagiarism is a serious accusation. Some people use RPG Maker as a medium. Imagine professional musicians who make chiptunes with old Amigas or DOS software (hint: there's a lot). More important than that, we're adults talking about it in an adult manner.
One thing that I think Soli isn't factoring in here, and has caused quite some stirred responses to any review or post made in Max's game topics, is that some developers aren't looking for criticism. There's a difference between not looking for criticism, and ignoring criticism. If you post a finished product, like Max did, you want to know how people feel about it. That includes people posting what they liked, and what they didn't like. Soli does this, of course, but a lot of "drama" in his reviews is a result of his natural response of including a way to correct problems he has run into, or changing things he didn't like. Max takes offense to this, because he doesn't like being told HOW to make his game. If he posts a blog specifically asking for suggestions, like he did after the review was posted, then good. Otherwise, if a "finished" work is posted, then there's a good chance the creator just wants to know WHAT you did or didn't like about it, so he can either make adjustments or keep it in mind for future projects. Knowing what didn't work for particular players, a good creator can make adjustments THEY feel are appropriate to solve it while still maintaining creative control and working within their own established philosophies. If they can't figure it out, then they can ask for suggestions.
That's not to say we don't appreciate Soli's comments; he puts a lot of time into playing games and writing down his experiences. Just might be better for Soli to be aware of this, as well as creators misconstruing Soli's intent.
I disgree with what DE said about game profiles, they are very versatile and much better than forum topics, but I agree with hali about accessibility. Yes, you can use the Games link to view the most recent games posted, but otherwise there isn't much fanfare when a game project is posted, and thus people looking for help might not get it right away (or at all). Once a game is subscribed to, the system is great. Technically, the "Games" link is just like the old "Game Project" forums, but since game pages are such a great feature, I think they could use some better exposure on the front page or site integration. There's always ideas in mind for this.
Regarding the thesis of this topic: I agree that discussion is not drama (that is, the connotation of drama that infers it is a bad thing, as we all understand it, and not the textbook definition kentona and WIP refer to, which is good). I remember thinking the exact same thing DE did when reading Brickroad's blog and the responses to it (RMN is srs biz, lol, arguing on the internet about children's toys is for retards). We're not arguing (discussing) who pew pew'd who and whether or not they had their invisible force field up. We're talking about real artistic merit, and as Max will tell you, plagiarism is a serious accusation. Some people use RPG Maker as a medium. Imagine professional musicians who make chiptunes with old Amigas or DOS software (hint: there's a lot). More important than that, we're adults talking about it in an adult manner.
One thing that I think Soli isn't factoring in here, and has caused quite some stirred responses to any review or post made in Max's game topics, is that some developers aren't looking for criticism. There's a difference between not looking for criticism, and ignoring criticism. If you post a finished product, like Max did, you want to know how people feel about it. That includes people posting what they liked, and what they didn't like. Soli does this, of course, but a lot of "drama" in his reviews is a result of his natural response of including a way to correct problems he has run into, or changing things he didn't like. Max takes offense to this, because he doesn't like being told HOW to make his game. If he posts a blog specifically asking for suggestions, like he did after the review was posted, then good. Otherwise, if a "finished" work is posted, then there's a good chance the creator just wants to know WHAT you did or didn't like about it, so he can either make adjustments or keep it in mind for future projects. Knowing what didn't work for particular players, a good creator can make adjustments THEY feel are appropriate to solve it while still maintaining creative control and working within their own established philosophies. If they can't figure it out, then they can ask for suggestions.
That's not to say we don't appreciate Soli's comments; he puts a lot of time into playing games and writing down his experiences. Just might be better for Soli to be aware of this, as well as creators misconstruing Soli's intent.
I disgree with what DE said about game profiles, they are very versatile and much better than forum topics, but I agree with hali about accessibility. Yes, you can use the Games link to view the most recent games posted, but otherwise there isn't much fanfare when a game project is posted, and thus people looking for help might not get it right away (or at all). Once a game is subscribed to, the system is great. Technically, the "Games" link is just like the old "Game Project" forums, but since game pages are such a great feature, I think they could use some better exposure on the front page or site integration. There's always ideas in mind for this.
DEMO WILL BE DONE IN A MONTH REMEMBER ME 'KAY?
lol as an aside reading this made me feel bad because my last blog was almost this, verbatim
AznChipmunk
4613
I love my gampags, but the reason I feel they are different from forum topics is that I always treated them more to be like "billboards" rather than discussion areas. Like download pages on Steam. When I look at a profile, I usually look at how the developer presents their game, and then I check out screenshots and reviews to see whether or not I would download the game. Looking around on gamepages I don't look for discussion, I look for things to play. I go to the forum looking for discussion and there I read about game theory. I don't really actually discuss the games themselves.
I know that's not how it's "supposed" to be but that's kind of what I do and I suspect that's what others do as well.
Well... so, thinking about how to improve? I don't really know. I do have a few suggestions though. On the front page, in the "Game Updates" section I would remove all the screenshot updates and keep it to blog/discussion updates. Next to the name of each blog post I would suggest putting the name of the game or the creator of the blog post.
Over on the left, under "Our Games" I would remove the entire section of tags, because I find that area pretty useless. That's the section of the frontpage I never really pay attention to, because it doesn't update on site content like the rest of the front page, it just generates a random list of tags--and you can find the full list of these tags on the search function of the games page anyways. Instead, I'd shift over the screenshots to be under "Our Games" and then put a "Popular Discussion" topic to see which blog posts per week have the most comments/discussion on them.
I'd also probably shrink down the "Latest Games to Play" section by making the thumbnails smaller.
I know that's not how it's "supposed" to be but that's kind of what I do and I suspect that's what others do as well.
Well... so, thinking about how to improve? I don't really know. I do have a few suggestions though. On the front page, in the "Game Updates" section I would remove all the screenshot updates and keep it to blog/discussion updates. Next to the name of each blog post I would suggest putting the name of the game or the creator of the blog post.
Over on the left, under "Our Games" I would remove the entire section of tags, because I find that area pretty useless. That's the section of the frontpage I never really pay attention to, because it doesn't update on site content like the rest of the front page, it just generates a random list of tags--and you can find the full list of these tags on the search function of the games page anyways. Instead, I'd shift over the screenshots to be under "Our Games" and then put a "Popular Discussion" topic to see which blog posts per week have the most comments/discussion on them.
I'd also probably shrink down the "Latest Games to Play" section by making the thumbnails smaller.
Illustrious
520
I have re-upped interest in reviewing games as part of my participation on this site. In doing so, I am showing my support for not limiting discussion, However, "drama" here is certain developers not desiring unlimited discussion.
I can't say for sure where Max McGee fits into all this. I believe he is genuine when saying his intention is taking a stand about an assessment he feels is not fair, but he can't seem to respond in a way that doesn't show he is experiencing some butthurt. I doubt it is just me who perceives this, but it does appear Max is one of the more easily offendable people in our community.
A few years back I tried to cater strictly to the crowd who wanted to hear my god-honest unbiased opinion of their games. I did not want all the screaming from those who were not able to handle me being constructive. I had a reviewing series called "Review by Request". They were not unsolicited reviews so I never got any of this "Well, who asked you for your two cents" attitude. So, how does this site feel? Are we better for reviewing peoples projects when they did not ask for or may not even desire it?
I can't say for sure where Max McGee fits into all this. I believe he is genuine when saying his intention is taking a stand about an assessment he feels is not fair, but he can't seem to respond in a way that doesn't show he is experiencing some butthurt. I doubt it is just me who perceives this, but it does appear Max is one of the more easily offendable people in our community.
A few years back I tried to cater strictly to the crowd who wanted to hear my god-honest unbiased opinion of their games. I did not want all the screaming from those who were not able to handle me being constructive. I had a reviewing series called "Review by Request". They were not unsolicited reviews so I never got any of this "Well, who asked you for your two cents" attitude. So, how does this site feel? Are we better for reviewing peoples projects when they did not ask for or may not even desire it?
post=149976
So, how does this site feel? Are we better for reviewing peoples projects when they did not ask for or may not even desire it?
I think we are pretty good about it! Honestly, I think most people are starved for it but will not stoop to pleading or groveling for reviews.
I say write more reviews, Illustrious!
