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PRETENTIOUS BULLSHIT AND MISSING THE POINT: THE SEQUEL TO THE GAME TO THE MOVIE
Posts
Neophyte
155
Neophyte
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Closepost=152918
Since I don't think I have anything to add to the discussion right now, I'll just recommend a game that is about a "touchy" subject, it's "artsy", but it's quite good imo.
Coma
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/541124
I beat this. I don't like 30 minute long fetch quests. What was this supposed to be about?
Breaking news: Talentless hacks write about rape and miscarriages while not even understanding the subject matter for quick publicity. Find an audience because it is the Internet. Reporter Catmitts has more, see first reply.
post=152914
Basically uh short answer is that this is cargo-cult art. It's a crude simulation which tries to superficially replicate the structure and feel of "important" art without understanding what any of it actually means or is used for. I don't want to be some Daily Mail curmudgeon and start shouting about pretentiousness etc because there's absolutely a place for that but I'd kind of like it if game developers just tried to honestly explore their own ideas and medium instead of scrabbling to be the first to make the Ulysses of vidcons or whatever the fuck.
I think this response sums thing up nicely.
post=152928
To me those sort of games are identical to stuff like the images in the iScribble thread here. It's just juvenile low-brow blue humor. It's existence has no real affect upon anything, so I never understand why people go into fake outrage mode upon discovering them.
This isn't really what I meant, ftr. Making something arbitrarily offensive doesn't inherently bother me. I'm not really the kind of person that gets OFFENDED by shock value crap. I certainly don't mind people making games about it.
Just... Don't pretend it has some deep meaningful metaphysical value or some crap.
Regarding SCRPG:
I particularly like how that, after the two leads commit suicide, they go to hell and kill Satan. For some reason.
I am convinced that game is one giant joke by the creator. He is laughing inside. Very hard.
Kaempfer
1932
Has anyone voiced their concern directly to the creator or the community for which it was created?
I suppose that there is an undercurrent of thought in this thread that I fundamentally disagree with. I don't disagree with absolutely everything everyone is saying but there is this general kind of trend that I definitely do disagree with.
It is hard to point out exactly why that is. Perhaps it is harder for game content to offend me? Perhaps I am MORE easily offended by game content but less offended by the transparency obvious attempts to offend me through game content? Perhaps I just have less restrictive ideas about what the term 'art' comprises, or maybe I am just the odd man out for thinking that art does not have to be in good taste.
I have no idea. Some combination of all the above. In any case I am not particularly likely to hate or condemn something that has subject matter which shocks or offends me.
I have played Edmund, also for some reason I think because of Calunio. As a game it is bite sized and its mechanics, balance, and challenge level are obviously irrelevant leaving the story and the 'message'--although I question whether to call it that, as I Edmund may not know what its message is. The story is indeed served little by the game's interactivity as someone mentioned--it could be a short film, of course, many popular games have their gameplay and story even further divorced. That leaves the 'message'--again, not sure that's the best word to use--the art factor, and the reason (not mentioned by anyone so far, I think) that Edmund is award-winning and lauded. This is that, essentially, players may or may not realize that "pressing the rape button" (for lack of a better word) and having their digital avatar perform a disgusting and morally debasing act upon another 'character' in order to progress the game, is not the only option. (You can also just walk away--this causes you to lose, to get the 'bad ending'.) It is almost like an experiment to see if your 'morbid curiosity' and your built in game-playing instincts will override your revulsion once you realize what is happening. I read something similar about the movie Funny Games, actually, that it was viewed by the creator as essentially an experiment or a test that the audience "failed" if they did not walk out of the theater. I think this is pretty clever stuff--certainly precision and care--although not tactful. I think that something shocking (as long as it is shocking and not just "shocking", and to be honest I was pretty shocked when I first played Edmund) can immediately force someone to contemplate subject matter somewhat more serious than that usually handled by games. The article I read with an analysis of Edmund (sorry that I have no convenient link) which I found after googling it in a state of what-the-fuck upon my first playthrough, explained this significantly better than I just did.
With you so far...I have oft observed that "pretentiousness" appears to be the cardinal sin of this particular sub-section of the dev community.
And...I guess that your standards for 'art' are significantly higher than mine? I don't know, it seems pretty silly to get up-in-arms about this when Japan is churning out rape simulators that literally and intentionally GLORIFY rape rather than, as you say, "ham-fistedly" attempting to create Capital A Art.
I think that may be true of SCMRPG but I don't think it's true of Edmund. I think Edmund was at least an attempt at creating art.
But Rapelay glorifies rape as pornography for getting your rocks off whereas Edmund attempts to be a "dark, realistic, gritty" and ultimately is an incredibly negative and disgusting portrayal of rape, by design?
So no, I think Rapelay and Edmund appeal to very different people.
SCMRPG:
I still do not know how I feel about this "game". I do not if it is trying to be art or not, and I do not know if it is art or not. I think it may be trying to be art and successful, trying to be art and unsuccessful, trying to be a crude, tasteless joke and succeeding, or trying to be a tasteless joke and somehow being art. I have seriously considered that last one. It is obviously stupid, vile, and offensive. And as an RPG Maker game it is TERRIBLE. But I can't work out the authorial intent let alone the success or failure. I really want to find the game's creators and try to beat an explanation out of them. Not out of any kind of anger or vitriol, simply out of bewilderment. Was it meant to be a joke? A statement? Neither, or both?
Edit:
THIS is possibly the MOST pretentious bullshit I have ever read.
Edit2:
Also interesting. I would watch this documentary.
It is hard to point out exactly why that is. Perhaps it is harder for game content to offend me? Perhaps I am MORE easily offended by game content but less offended by the transparency obvious attempts to offend me through game content? Perhaps I just have less restrictive ideas about what the term 'art' comprises, or maybe I am just the odd man out for thinking that art does not have to be in good taste.
I have no idea. Some combination of all the above. In any case I am not particularly likely to hate or condemn something that has subject matter which shocks or offends me.
I have played Edmund, also for some reason I think because of Calunio. As a game it is bite sized and its mechanics, balance, and challenge level are obviously irrelevant leaving the story and the 'message'--although I question whether to call it that, as I Edmund may not know what its message is. The story is indeed served little by the game's interactivity as someone mentioned--it could be a short film, of course, many popular games have their gameplay and story even further divorced. That leaves the 'message'--again, not sure that's the best word to use--the art factor, and the reason (not mentioned by anyone so far, I think) that Edmund is award-winning and lauded. This is that, essentially, players may or may not realize that "pressing the rape button" (for lack of a better word) and having their digital avatar perform a disgusting and morally debasing act upon another 'character' in order to progress the game, is not the only option. (You can also just walk away--this causes you to lose, to get the 'bad ending'.) It is almost like an experiment to see if your 'morbid curiosity' and your built in game-playing instincts will override your revulsion once you realize what is happening. I read something similar about the movie Funny Games, actually, that it was viewed by the creator as essentially an experiment or a test that the audience "failed" if they did not walk out of the theater. I think this is pretty clever stuff--certainly precision and care--although not tactful. I think that something shocking (as long as it is shocking and not just "shocking", and to be honest I was pretty shocked when I first played Edmund) can immediately force someone to contemplate subject matter somewhat more serious than that usually handled by games. The article I read with an analysis of Edmund (sorry that I have no convenient link) which I found after googling it in a state of what-the-fuck upon my first playthrough, explained this significantly better than I just did.
Basically I think ARTGAMS get a disproportionate amount of hate for what they're at least trying to be but stuff like this really drags the problems with them into focus: the problems with making things whose only purpose is to demonstrate artiness.
With you so far...I have oft observed that "pretentiousness" appears to be the cardinal sin of this particular sub-section of the dev community.
Everyone wants to make some incredible masterpiece which shows GAMES: NOT JUST FOR KIDS ANYMORE and encompasses life death love the horror of our age ~ n. mailer but that shit tends to be so generalized that it doesn't actually say anything. Edmund is basically a pastiche of high art in terms of uh terse melodramatic garbage with a BIG MESSAGE because all art needs a BIG MESSAGE and should be SHOCKING. And maybe a hamfisted message about audience implication in this stuff because there's nothing like turning the mirror around on the imaginary bourgeoise and j'accusing majestically to make up for a complete lack of thought or perspective and coincidentally take the spotlight off the developer's role. He's just an objective student of humanity (a "social experimenter" if you will heh) and it's not his fault if people play the rape game he developed and distributed, the sick fucks.
And...I guess that your standards for 'art' are significantly higher than mine? I don't know, it seems pretty silly to get up-in-arms about this when Japan is churning out rape simulators that literally and intentionally GLORIFY rape rather than, as you say, "ham-fistedly" attempting to create Capital A Art.
To me those sort of games are identical to stuff like the images in the iScribble thread here. It's just juvenile low-brow blue humor. It's existence has no real affect upon anything, so I never understand why people go into fake outrage mode upon discovering them.
I think that may be true of SCMRPG but I don't think it's true of Edmund. I think Edmund was at least an attempt at creating art.
I imagine that those kinds of games appeal to the same people who would play things like this little infamous H-game. There are just people out there who seriously get their jollies off of being a good little sociopath to defenseless pixels, because they would (hopefully...) never dare to do that in real life.
But Rapelay glorifies rape as pornography for getting your rocks off whereas Edmund attempts to be a "dark, realistic, gritty" and ultimately is an incredibly negative and disgusting portrayal of rape, by design?
So no, I think Rapelay and Edmund appeal to very different people.
SCMRPG:
I still do not know how I feel about this "game". I do not if it is trying to be art or not, and I do not know if it is art or not. I think it may be trying to be art and successful, trying to be art and unsuccessful, trying to be a crude, tasteless joke and succeeding, or trying to be a tasteless joke and somehow being art. I have seriously considered that last one. It is obviously stupid, vile, and offensive. And as an RPG Maker game it is TERRIBLE. But I can't work out the authorial intent let alone the success or failure. I really want to find the game's creators and try to beat an explanation out of them. Not out of any kind of anger or vitriol, simply out of bewilderment. Was it meant to be a joke? A statement? Neither, or both?
Edit:
THIS is possibly the MOST pretentious bullshit I have ever read.
Edit2:
Also interesting. I would watch this documentary.
I hate weird obscure games with a passion. If I want to learn something I'll go read a book - I play games for fun god damn it.
Nice recovery.
I also have no compelling thoughts to contribute at this time but I wanted to mention I find everyone's thoughts interesting so far.
I also have no compelling thoughts to contribute at this time but I wanted to mention I find everyone's thoughts interesting so far.
I just found out that in a "six degrees of kevin bacon" type way I indirectly "know" the guy who made Super Columbine Massacre RPG, not through the internets or anything RPG maker related, but through real life. Apparently my girlfriend's high school classmate is part of his production company...and apparently did the score for the documentary he made based on the game's reception and slamgate.
Found this out TOTALLY AT RANDOM by linking her to a youtube video they were both involved with and she was like "I KNOW THAT GUY". We were both really weirded-out by the coincidence.
Weird!
Found this out TOTALLY AT RANDOM by linking her to a youtube video they were both involved with and she was like "I KNOW THAT GUY". We were both really weirded-out by the coincidence.
Weird!
post=152943post=152928This isn't really what I meant, ftr. Making something arbitrarily offensive doesn't inherently bother me. I'm not really the kind of person that gets OFFENDED by shock value crap. I certainly don't mind people making games about it.
To me those sort of games are identical to stuff like the images in the iScribble thread here. It's just juvenile low-brow blue humor. It's existence has no real affect upon anything, so I never understand why people go into fake outrage mode upon discovering them.
Just... Don't pretend it has some deep meaningful metaphysical value or some crap.
Ah I gotcha. I haven't actually played the game, nor even heard of it previously. I just saw the contest it won, which clearly doesn't take itself that seriously so assumed it was just typical 4chan garbage. If it's like a video game equivalent of a Jackson Pollock painting, then yeah that'd probably annoy me.
Shinan
4314
The game's screenshot looks kinda cool.
I'm not against this kind of gamemaking. I am against it if the creator somehow states that this is "pretty artsy right?" But even then. I don't know. I like it when people takes stuff that might offend some people and make something out of it. Even if it is just for shock value. Basically people need to be offended more and then get over it. Every day when I'm on RMN I'm offended by all the shit anime thrown around but I get over it. (Though in this case I suppose people aren't purposefully trying to offend people/me)
I've had my own share of offensive game ideas. (One favourite was a game that would be a sim-like game about slavetrading. And of course my opposites idea where you would alternate playing a hidding jew and a searching SS officer) And to be honest they were all about the offensiveness.
Of course I haven't played Edmund so I don't actually know if it is pretentious. Because I like offensive games but have no love for pretentious games. (So I love this, because it's potentially offensive and not pretentious at all :D)
I'm not against this kind of gamemaking. I am against it if the creator somehow states that this is "pretty artsy right?" But even then. I don't know. I like it when people takes stuff that might offend some people and make something out of it. Even if it is just for shock value. Basically people need to be offended more and then get over it. Every day when I'm on RMN I'm offended by all the shit anime thrown around but I get over it. (Though in this case I suppose people aren't purposefully trying to offend people/me)
I've had my own share of offensive game ideas. (One favourite was a game that would be a sim-like game about slavetrading. And of course my opposites idea where you would alternate playing a hidding jew and a searching SS officer) And to be honest they were all about the offensiveness.
Of course I haven't played Edmund so I don't actually know if it is pretentious. Because I like offensive games but have no love for pretentious games. (So I love this, because it's potentially offensive and not pretentious at all :D)
catmitts
4862
And...I guess that your standards for 'art' are significantly higher than mine? I don't know, it seems pretty silly to get up-in-arms about this when Japan is churning out rape simulators that literally and intentionally GLORIFY rape rather than, as you say, "ham-fistedly" attempting to create Capital A Art.
I have a lot more time for Edmund than Rapelay but that wasn't what this thread is about! And nah I'm not gonna halfheartedly praise something I thought was very dumb just because there are dumber things out there. The existence of actual rape porn doesn't make it any less obnoxious or offensive when mainstream movies trot one out as cheap shorthand for seriousness. Neither Edmund nor Rapelay but international communism ~ ramci
I agree with most of Max said.
I guess some people are offended by some games because they believes that such games TRY to be something grand, but that's just reading the gamemaker's mind (I guess that's what's been called pretentious). I'm really not sure what the guy who made Edmund was trying to accomplish, so I could not judge the game based on my guessing. I judge it based on my own experience with it... which was not very good, because I found the game to be kinda boring, but definitely not offensive... and, like I said, the atmosphere is kinda nice, so I'm not taking off all the merit.
And I definitely would not throw Edmund, SCMRPG and Rapelay on the same sack. They're completely different games, I'd say. Edmuns looks "artsier", while the other two definitely aren't. Rapelay, imo, is just some ordinary porn game for people with particular sexual tastes, which sadly, are not that uncommon. I don't know much about this Columbine RPG, but it just looks like a poor taste joke. It could have been made into an interesting game, though.
I guess some people are offended by some games because they believes that such games TRY to be something grand, but that's just reading the gamemaker's mind (I guess that's what's been called pretentious). I'm really not sure what the guy who made Edmund was trying to accomplish, so I could not judge the game based on my guessing. I judge it based on my own experience with it... which was not very good, because I found the game to be kinda boring, but definitely not offensive... and, like I said, the atmosphere is kinda nice, so I'm not taking off all the merit.
And I definitely would not throw Edmund, SCMRPG and Rapelay on the same sack. They're completely different games, I'd say. Edmuns looks "artsier", while the other two definitely aren't. Rapelay, imo, is just some ordinary porn game for people with particular sexual tastes, which sadly, are not that uncommon. I don't know much about this Columbine RPG, but it just looks like a poor taste joke. It could have been made into an interesting game, though.
McDohl
120
post=152967
I hate weird obscure games with a passion. If I want to learn something I'll go read a book - I play games for fun god damn it.
...I can't... there are no words...
...not even an image will do...
Sounds like a fighting game win quote. As a matter of fact let me go right ahead and...
I hate weird obscure games with a passion. If I want to learn something I'll go read a book - I play games for fun god damn it.
I hate weird obscure games with a passion. If I want to learn something I'll go read a book - I play games for fun god damn it.
post=153020I hate weird obscure games with a passion. If I want to learn something I'll go read a book - I play games for fun god damn it.
hahahahahaa, so true, so true!
Darken
3952
Can anyone explain to me how you can come to the idea that this isn't a game about rape but a rapist?? I've been reading the edmund topic and it seems really fuacking dumb. they just get mad when some ranter "misses teh point!!1"
