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LOWERING YOUR STANDARDS AND FINISHING YOUR GAME
Posts
WolfCoder
3554
WolfCoder
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CloseThis is completely backwards of how I go. I start with a basic idea that could be done in a few weeks and laugh as it grows out of control into some sort of Frankenstein's Monster of awesomeness. Seeing as how I've been at my current project for a year (even though I spent most of the year not working on it) and it's still fun, I've finally got something.
There's tons of features it has that I never expected it would have and it has them already, like an entire scripting language I invented.
There's tons of features it has that I never expected it would have and it has them already, like an entire scripting language I invented.
post=209478
I don't know if I've replied to this topic yet, but whatever.
The title is horrible. I get the idea, but lowering standards is NOT what this community needs by any stretch of the imagination.
Cutting out unnecessary features? Alright. Making shit? Not alright.
I agree that alot of completed games could use a finer touch of quality, but this is more directed towards the dozens of awesome looking projects that never get released (which is ironic considering who I'm talking to here ;D ).
post=204452
THIS TOPIC IS ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO'VE EVER FINISHED A GAME. IF YOU HAVEN'T, SHUT UP, READ AND LEARN.
So we were reading this article about finishing games and talking about it on #rpgmaker.net. There's been a lot of articles and topics on how to finish games, how to be strong-willed and smart and plan ahead etc.
But I believe one of the things that helps the most finishing games is LOWERING YOUR STANDARDS.
Here here.
You'd never imagine it would be hard to follow the advice "keep it simple" but it always is. Great article.
WolfCoder
3554
THIS TOPIC IS ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO'VE EVER FINISHED A GAME. IF YOU HAVEN'T, SHUT UP, READ AND LEARN.
THIS IS A TOPIC ONLY FOR 1337 H4X0RZ
CAPS UNRELATED
Altima (originally in Action 52)
Didn't need to cut any characters or dungeons
(I did however not get around to making most of the enemies actually do anything besides attack. I think the final dungeon only requires a bit of effort because besides the very first enemies no enemy does anything threatening until the final dungeon enemies which I did manage to give some skills. I also completely forgot to assign animations, I overlooked an exploit where dungeons give you loot when completed (which you could repeat) and that you can just run from every dungeon encounter. And there was a bug that would crash the game because I missed the fourth time I had to say what elements had what icons in YEZ. Then there was the bug that let you get the airship but you could never board it. Oops!).
Super RMN Bros
Delayed the whole "See what others thought of it" of testing (not that it would've mattered, I got completely different feedback from my usual testing posse)
Demon's Gate
At some point I noticed a way to make Int matter more via resource hacking. I only did said hacking near the very end and like hell I was going to hack elemental modifiers to support larger numbers and rebalance everything for that. Thought about it for 1.6 but I ended up choosing 'fuck that' again.
hahahahah
(whoa I just noticed V&V and Marian are under 'My games')
Didn't need to cut any characters or dungeons
(I did however not get around to making most of the enemies actually do anything besides attack. I think the final dungeon only requires a bit of effort because besides the very first enemies no enemy does anything threatening until the final dungeon enemies which I did manage to give some skills. I also completely forgot to assign animations, I overlooked an exploit where dungeons give you loot when completed (which you could repeat) and that you can just run from every dungeon encounter. And there was a bug that would crash the game because I missed the fourth time I had to say what elements had what icons in YEZ. Then there was the bug that let you get the airship but you could never board it. Oops!).
Super RMN Bros
Delayed the whole "See what others thought of it" of testing (not that it would've mattered, I got completely different feedback from my usual testing posse)
Demon's Gate
At some point I noticed a way to make Int matter more via resource hacking. I only did said hacking near the very end and like hell I was going to hack elemental modifiers to support larger numbers and rebalance everything for that. Thought about it for 1.6 but I ended up choosing 'fuck that' again.
hahahahah
(whoa I just noticed V&V and Marian are under 'My games')
Yeah, you have to actually get it done somehow, which can mean checking on with reality and lowering unreasonable standards.
Of course, you might think of lowering your ego too.
Of course, you might think of lowering your ego too.
Radnen
1806
I don't lower my standards, instead, I chop off unnecessary mechanics. My game had randomized item drops, but it was getting too long and tedious to introduce so I just stopped doing that, and went with a simpler design. I don't think this is lowering my standards, because I still think I've got a fairly high standard for items, but its now seen in a different more time-approachable way.
Also, because I'm programming this game, I will sometimes try to program a system that will help me later on rather than bite me in the ass: Game State Handler, for one.
It may come down to three things:
1. Amount of Content.
2. Ability.
3. Standards.
In that order. Lowering the standard for me is a last resort, if you can't find other ways. What happens with lowering the standard is you can get crap. Which means you can get little replay. And lets face it: Belting out another game will not help (unless it regards ability), because you are faced with the same formula for game creation. If all you do is lower standards on a game you'll be a production line of crappy games.
With respect to 1: Perhaps you shouldn't strive for the "epic". Perhaps create a simple game that gives a foundation for your characters, and work up to the epic. And if you don't choose to do so, you can leave it there and no one will think any different of you (unless they want more, and I hope this encouragement is a good sign to release something more, but not necessarily of "epic" proportion).
With respect to 2: Perhaps studying or creating tech demos can help here. There's nothing worse than trying to figure out how. So, a game is not something to be testing new concepts on. A game should incorporate what you already know. If you have trouble with or want to experience a new idea, make a short but sweet tech demo. Don't feel obligated to release it, however.
With respect to 3: This places gives too much criticism, while good, I can easily see why people may want to push the limit. They saw perhaps one or two great games, and feel the need to mimic that while not receiving flak because they decided to use a clashing chipset. Bottom Line: Be thankful it is done.
A game is not something you should feel rushed to finish. It's like a painting. What if Leonardog DaVinci just scribbled the other half of Mona Lisa's face? For the sake of getting it done? I'd rather see it half complete! (It could mean something... Ha! But for games, I guess it can break the experience).
It's really a paradox, dammit.
Also, because I'm programming this game, I will sometimes try to program a system that will help me later on rather than bite me in the ass: Game State Handler, for one.
It may come down to three things:
1. Amount of Content.
2. Ability.
3. Standards.
In that order. Lowering the standard for me is a last resort, if you can't find other ways. What happens with lowering the standard is you can get crap. Which means you can get little replay. And lets face it: Belting out another game will not help (unless it regards ability), because you are faced with the same formula for game creation. If all you do is lower standards on a game you'll be a production line of crappy games.
With respect to 1: Perhaps you shouldn't strive for the "epic". Perhaps create a simple game that gives a foundation for your characters, and work up to the epic. And if you don't choose to do so, you can leave it there and no one will think any different of you (unless they want more, and I hope this encouragement is a good sign to release something more, but not necessarily of "epic" proportion).
With respect to 2: Perhaps studying or creating tech demos can help here. There's nothing worse than trying to figure out how. So, a game is not something to be testing new concepts on. A game should incorporate what you already know. If you have trouble with or want to experience a new idea, make a short but sweet tech demo. Don't feel obligated to release it, however.
With respect to 3: This places gives too much criticism, while good, I can easily see why people may want to push the limit. They saw perhaps one or two great games, and feel the need to mimic that while not receiving flak because they decided to use a clashing chipset. Bottom Line: Be thankful it is done.
A game is not something you should feel rushed to finish. It's like a painting. What if Leonardog DaVinci just scribbled the other half of Mona Lisa's face? For the sake of getting it done? I'd rather see it half complete! (It could mean something... Ha! But for games, I guess it can break the experience).
It's really a paradox, dammit.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Pretty sure your definition of "chopping off unnecessary parts without lowering the standards" is the same as what everyone else meant by "lowering the standards." Most of what you said is still pretty true though.
I do disagree with this point:
In my opinion, if you don't have a new idea, you shouldn't make a new game. If the game does nothing unique, there's no reason for it to exist. My reason for making games as a hobby is because I like to design original creative works. If you just want to re-release what you've already done before, I hope you're getting paid for it.
Besides, roughly 90% of the work on any game is getting all your stuff to function properly. This is to be expected. Chopping off some of that to save time is fine. But if you can't handle dealing with *any* of that while making a game, might I suggest a new hobby that isn't software design?
I do disagree with this point:
There's nothing worse than trying to figure out how. So, a game is not something to be testing new concepts on. A game should incorporate what you already know. If you have trouble with or want to experience a new idea, make a short but sweet tech demo. Don't feel obligated to release it, however.
In my opinion, if you don't have a new idea, you shouldn't make a new game. If the game does nothing unique, there's no reason for it to exist. My reason for making games as a hobby is because I like to design original creative works. If you just want to re-release what you've already done before, I hope you're getting paid for it.
Besides, roughly 90% of the work on any game is getting all your stuff to function properly. This is to be expected. Chopping off some of that to save time is fine. But if you can't handle dealing with *any* of that while making a game, might I suggest a new hobby that isn't software design?
Radnen
1806
post=213487
Pretty sure your definition of "chopping off unnecessary parts without lowering the standards" is the same as what everyone else meant by "lowering the standards." Most of what you said is still pretty true though.
i thought lowering standards meant using crappy placeholder graphics in lieu of something you couldn't get done in time rather than completely chopping that away. I look at standards as a function of effort.
post=213487
I do disagree with this point:There's nothing worse than trying to figure out how. So, a game is not something to be testing new concepts on. A game should incorporate what you already know. If you have trouble with or want to experience a new idea, make a short but sweet tech demo. Don't feel obligated to release it, however.
In my opinion, if you don't have a new idea, you shouldn't make a new game. If the game does nothing unique, there's no reason for it to exist. My reason for making games as a hobby is because I like to design original creative works. If you just want to re-release what you've already done before, I hope you're getting paid for it.
Then you aren't getting my point. I do agree with you, a game should be new and original. I meant, if you've never made an ABS before, a new (main) game isn't the place to do it. A short tech demo where you practice that is the place. If you want to make an epic, don't test new game mechanics until you know how or got it down fairly well on a previous (even smaller) project. Otherwise you might stop working on the main project because you couldn't figure out how to incorporate the battle system - since it's the first time you did it. And that blows worse than story and graphics (which could have been the best ever).
post=213596post=213487i thought lowering standards meant using crappy placeholder graphics in lieu of something you couldn't get done in time rather than completely chopping that away. I look at standards as a function of effort.
Pretty sure your definition of "chopping off unnecessary parts without lowering the standards" is the same as what everyone else meant by "lowering the standards." Most of what you said is still pretty true though.post=213487
I do disagree with this point:There's nothing worse than trying to figure out how. So, a game is not something to be testing new concepts on. A game should incorporate what you already know. If you have trouble with or want to experience a new idea, make a short but sweet tech demo. Don't feel obligated to release it, however.
In my opinion, if you don't have a new idea, you shouldn't make a new game. If the game does nothing unique, there's no reason for it to exist. My reason for making games as a hobby is because I like to design original creative works. If you just want to re-release what you've already done before, I hope you're getting paid for it.
Then you aren't getting my point. I do agree with you, a game should be new and original. I meant, if you've never made an ABS before, a new (main) game isn't the place to do it. A short tech demo where you practice that is the place. If you want to make an epic, don't test new game mechanics until you know how or got it down fairly well on a previous (even smaller) project. Otherwise you might stop working on the main project because you couldn't figure out how to incorporate the battle system - since it's the first time you did it. And that blows worse than story and graphics (which could have been the best ever).
You're all completely backwards if you think a majority of this community is dead set on originality. Conventional is good.
WolfCoder
3554
Exactly. I'm a strong proponent of making conventional games that still manage to feel fresh vs. trying to be as unique and new as possible. You wind up looking like those stereotypical Mac hipsters with their designer jeans and expensive coffees.
The rest of us just want an effen game ^^
The rest of us just want an effen game ^^
Radnen
1806
post=213640
You're all completely backwards if you think a majority of this community is dead set on originality. Conventional is good.
You are completely backwards for not expanding your comment. ;) No one says a sentence and just leaves it there! You may have a great idea going, but we/I won't know if you don't share.
I might think I want to disagree with you, but its hard when you speak so generally. Maybe there is a good reason, or maybe not.
I can see conventionality as an argument for a tried and true approach to game design. But without some originality your game can get old fast. I look towards clichés as a conventional story element, and one that can be remedied with a bit more creativity. I endorse creativity.
I also did not speak in terms of the community, I haven't been here that long to judge this, and it would not be in my place to do so. 0.0
Emanzi
168
"There's tons of features it has that I never expected it would have and it has them already, like an entire scripting language I invented."
Impressive ^_^
hehe looks like you r having fun with it...
Impressive ^_^
hehe looks like you r having fun with it...
gerkrt
488
I have a very huge and giant project, and a few small ones. My problem is that its complexity requires a lot of work. I think that planning and desinging and writing a videogame in design documents is the way you can complete a task like this.
My project have:
-7 main characters, with 7 classes and subclasses.
-12 secondary but playable characters.
-Open party selection, and in the end, you can select beyond any secondary.
-A lot of freedom, giant mapamundi and sidquest.
-Each character have 3 habilities that are very unique and complex.
-Exist 10 "shops" (in some way...) more than item,equip and magic.
-Each enemy gives special item with a LOT of effects.
-The enemies have a complex IA script
-A limited inventory based on weight with a improved interface.
-Tactics system with 6 rows and using battlers distance for some things.
-Elements and status have a important twist.
-3 difficulty levels.
-A lot of secrets and extras, including a new adventure, and special methods of playing the game.
-Some other complex sub systems...
-A argumental and playable tree that have 12 different endings.
-You can use the invocations to special combat to other invocations and use them in mapamundi and dungeon exploration.
-6 different tipes of equipment (types based on how are created, not armors, weapons,etc)
And a lot of other things, a LOT. The history is complex, and the idea was to create my own graphics. I was thinking in 20h of duration.
My actual design document have.... 300+ pages!
I'm mad?
The point is that i have been years with that. I have a few practic things... some scripts, etc. For some reasons i havent worked a lot in it, but anyway... 300 pages and i think its only at 60% of completion. Because a lot of things are just writed too superficially, and a lot of systems have to be writen at 100%...
What do you think? Im planning on staying 5 years wuith this game. Its possible?
I think i have to cut a lot of things...
My project have:
-7 main characters, with 7 classes and subclasses.
-12 secondary but playable characters.
-Open party selection, and in the end, you can select beyond any secondary.
-A lot of freedom, giant mapamundi and sidquest.
-Each character have 3 habilities that are very unique and complex.
-Exist 10 "shops" (in some way...) more than item,equip and magic.
-Each enemy gives special item with a LOT of effects.
-The enemies have a complex IA script
-A limited inventory based on weight with a improved interface.
-Tactics system with 6 rows and using battlers distance for some things.
-Elements and status have a important twist.
-3 difficulty levels.
-A lot of secrets and extras, including a new adventure, and special methods of playing the game.
-Some other complex sub systems...
-A argumental and playable tree that have 12 different endings.
-You can use the invocations to special combat to other invocations and use them in mapamundi and dungeon exploration.
-6 different tipes of equipment (types based on how are created, not armors, weapons,etc)
And a lot of other things, a LOT. The history is complex, and the idea was to create my own graphics. I was thinking in 20h of duration.
My actual design document have.... 300+ pages!
I'm mad?
The point is that i have been years with that. I have a few practic things... some scripts, etc. For some reasons i havent worked a lot in it, but anyway... 300 pages and i think its only at 60% of completion. Because a lot of things are just writed too superficially, and a lot of systems have to be writen at 100%...
What do you think? Im planning on staying 5 years wuith this game. Its possible?
I think i have to cut a lot of things...
Radnen
1806
@gerkrt: I've made a topic about your problem (which I guess relates to this topic) the problem with a game that takes 5 years to make is how do you know that in 4 years from now you won't be interested in something else? Plus in this age people change their computers at least once every five years, or they at least become largely superior.
I don't want to take no more than 2 years tops on my games.
I don't want to take no more than 2 years tops on my games.
Drakonais
2787
Before Tiamat Sacrament, I had been working on a massive project with branching storylines, tons of features, and every possible cool gimmick I could think to throw in. When I took a step back and looked at it after 3 years, I realized that I was only maybe 10% done. And of course, I had grown as a designer in that time so there were consistency issues. I decided it was beyond my means and just scrapped it.
When I first started TS, I began with a simple idea: there's a dragon and he's the last one, so he has to do stuff to save dragonkind. I had originally expected it to take a couple of months maximum, but even a simple project idea like this one became over a year of dedicated work. I wouldn't say I sacrificed anything or lowered my standards, but only because I had modest expectations from the outset.
I'd rather scrap sub-par work, as I did with my previous project, than release something where I felt like elements were sacrificed. That's just me.
When I first started TS, I began with a simple idea: there's a dragon and he's the last one, so he has to do stuff to save dragonkind. I had originally expected it to take a couple of months maximum, but even a simple project idea like this one became over a year of dedicated work. I wouldn't say I sacrificed anything or lowered my standards, but only because I had modest expectations from the outset.
I'd rather scrap sub-par work, as I did with my previous project, than release something where I felt like elements were sacrificed. That's just me.
