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Darken
3952
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CloseSo a little discussion came from here. Some people believe a RPG can only get fun when you have more skills and characters to play around with. Others think the game should just be exciting from the start. Personally I think you don't really need complex arsenal to make the beginning fun, just something really interesting to happen (an assassination attempt, a terrorist attack, a train robbery and so on). Just a good hook to get the player interested in what he is doing, even if he can only attack and use one spell. There was also the mention of tutorials for people unfamiliar with the game's rules, a lot of JRPGs tend to just roll with it giving you that "well im like finalfantasy isnt that enough???" deal. But how do you introduce the player to your game?
Pokemaniac
3559
(methinks you linked the wrong topic)
Introduce them to anything that doesn't explain itself. A battle menu has handy names for options and such that make life easy and really obvious. Finding the game's menu isn't so obvious.
As for making starting battles interesting, just don't have many at first. The player isn't a retard, they'll pick it up. (Altough, I admit, I started each character with 6 skills each in Parallel. Most likely overkill but there were never enough battles to find out! Or enough feedback =/)
Introduce them to anything that doesn't explain itself. A battle menu has handy names for options and such that make life easy and really obvious. Finding the game's menu isn't so obvious.
As for making starting battles interesting, just don't have many at first. The player isn't a retard, they'll pick it up. (Altough, I admit, I started each character with 6 skills each in Parallel. Most likely overkill but there were never enough battles to find out! Or enough feedback =/)
Lennon
88
I like to throw some action in the very beginning, since I hate slow starts. It just feels like that would hook the player into the game right away, instead of easing them into it by farting around in a village for 2 hours. Even if you're not playing as the protagonist, you should play as someone involved in the action right away.
EDIT: As for skills and items and all that, I don't start with many. I've played games where I've had a million skills right at the start, and it's just awful and confusing. You have to gradually introduce skills and abilities to the player. I do however like to taunt the player by having a character you get later on their team, with awesome equips that you can't change. : P
As for tutorials, I really only put in a small battle tutorial and the controls. I'm not a fan of complex battle systems that take two and half hours to explain.
EDIT: As for skills and items and all that, I don't start with many. I've played games where I've had a million skills right at the start, and it's just awful and confusing. You have to gradually introduce skills and abilities to the player. I do however like to taunt the player by having a character you get later on their team, with awesome equips that you can't change. : P
As for tutorials, I really only put in a small battle tutorial and the controls. I'm not a fan of complex battle systems that take two and half hours to explain.
post=206951
Dudes need to play more IPoP. I did my best to throw you into the first mission and at two moderately challenging bosses right at the get-go, with several skills on each character. How did I justify this? I started the player off with lots of attacking and healing items (and told the player to use them) and made various enemies specifically weak to one or the other starting characters' skills (and had a mini-tutorial on each skill's use), as well as the new weapon you could pick up.
I got some complaints about difficulty, which is understandable because it was hard. I think people were able to get into it more, though - and on top of that, you get to assassinate a prince in the first fifteen minutes of the game. You can't ask for a much quicker or interesting hook. (Then you explore a cave. Could have picked up on that energy better, methinks.)
But what does Craze know? ::D
EDIT: WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT you need a hook and fun gameplay from the start. If you don't, you're a moron who gives in to the worst of the jRPG tropes.
Look at some big wRPGs:
-Oblivion: You break out of prison with the fucking emperor and are attacked by fucking assassins
-Fallout 3: After a short sequence of learning the basics (in which you get to punch and mock people, if you want), you suddenly have to fight for your life and make big choices on the fly to escape
-The Witcher: Big enemies. Lots of little enemies. Giant magic spells. Boobies. I think there are two possible bosses to encounter in the prologue alone, based on your choices. It's all streamlined into a very nice and integrated tutorial
Look at some jRPGs that get it right:
-Final Fantasy X-2: First, you're baffled by the inclusion of a concert (during which Rikku and Paine are kicking ass). What is Yuna wearing, anyway? Then bam, you're killing various types of goons - and stealing from them - to get used to the slick ATB, and suddenly you fight two boss battles, learn about the game's two coolest mechanics (Gunner and Sphere Change) and send the Goldfish Poop Gang crying into the sunset
-Tales of the Abyss: It starts off with Luke wandering around and bitching about how he's cooped up, then you get teleported out of the castle it's been established you're locked into, all because some chick you saw in the intro just tried to assassinate your mentor after putting all of the guards to sleep with some singing and holy shit now she's in the party what is going on and that is a BIG landship and wait I'm in enemy territory and whaaaaaaaat
-Odin Sphere: This game is pretty much non-stop hooks and killing fairies
-Xenosaga 3: Dog fight while flying around a city, then an infiltration mission as the MC, a character you wanted to play as outside of E.S. segments for all of XS2 and Shion's weapon developer (who you've also never been able to play). You're assisted by a crazy chick with an awesome E.S. who speaks Latin a lot
Shinan
4314
Games should be like James Bond movies. Open up with a bang. Games are not theatre where you can start out slow because maybe not everyone has gotten a seat yet. Blow shit up first. And then take a back seat and explain yourself.
Yeaster
6164
I really think it depends on what kind of story you're trying to tell. Some game like to start off with insta-action whereas others like to be spend some time settling up the mood, atmosphere and the basic plot before throwing the player into a dungeon -- and to me, both are fine. In a lot of the games that I enjoy, it took 15-35 minutes getting into the first battle.
I do have a lot of patience though, and it takes a lot for me to just quit a game (commercial or otherwise), especially during that first hour. Some games just have a slower start and I don't see anything wrong with that, providing that it is NOT filler fetch-quests and you are actually using that time to establish your leading characters and setting up the (initial) storyline.
I do have a lot of patience though, and it takes a lot for me to just quit a game (commercial or otherwise), especially during that first hour. Some games just have a slower start and I don't see anything wrong with that, providing that it is NOT filler fetch-quests and you are actually using that time to establish your leading characters and setting up the (initial) storyline.
A game should definitely be interesting from the start. And there are many ways to do this, it's not only about challenges, or interesting events.
I think the biggest mistake people usually make with intros and beginnings is showing players what the makers think they NEED to know, not what they WANT to see. That's what happens with long intro cutscenes, or long intro tutorials, or beginning huge towns with NPCs that give way too much information, or long sequences of battles that don't seem to amount to anything.
I know people are tired of hearing me talk about this game, but I like how Space Funeral starts. There's zero intro, you control your main character right from the offset, and you're immediately thrown in the game's setting. That was fun.
I think the biggest mistake people usually make with intros and beginnings is showing players what the makers think they NEED to know, not what they WANT to see. That's what happens with long intro cutscenes, or long intro tutorials, or beginning huge towns with NPCs that give way too much information, or long sequences of battles that don't seem to amount to anything.
I know people are tired of hearing me talk about this game, but I like how Space Funeral starts. There's zero intro, you control your main character right from the offset, and you're immediately thrown in the game's setting. That was fun.
You can do that a few minutes after the beginning. Let him roam free for just a while, then throw some cutscene or NPC saying stuff.
sunshinesan
534
This is a very difficult topic for amateur RMers to digest I believe. For us to to "hook" players, we must have them be interested on the get go, this causes us to use underhanded tactics that might clash with our original intent with the game and ruin the game's integrity. A lot of commercial games, i.e. RPGs have long ass intros, and yes, we might be bored of them when we first start playing, but we learn to appreciate those long ass intros later on in the game when we get our acts together.
MKID232
435
The problem with an intro that starts strong is it loses more luster than a slower intro. When I play a game that starts slow, I am bored, because I want to play the game. But if I beat the game (and enjoy it) and decide to replay it, the intro is a lot more tolerable. With a strong intro, though, when I want to repeat a game, it's too boring. I can't quite get why, though, it just is.
Yeaster
6164
I think I misread the topic. I assumed the op meant intro as in "all-of-the-scenes-before-the-first-dungeon"...I didn't know you meant the INITIAL introduction scene.
*stoopid*
In that case, I don't think those should ever be too long. Break up the scene with some action (character controllably) and that would suffice for me, providing that I'm told specifically where to go.
*stoopid*
In that case, I don't think those should ever be too long. Break up the scene with some action (character controllably) and that would suffice for me, providing that I'm told specifically where to go.
post=207000
A lot of commercial games, i.e. RPGs have long ass intros, and yes, we might be bored of them when we first start playing, but we learn to appreciate those long ass intros later on in the game when we get our acts together.
Untruth.
Neophyte
155
Animate things. It doesn't even need to be explosions. For proof, see Ascendence. Also, getting rid of message boxes with tons of text. There are other ways to explain things. Make things more visual.
I guess you can make them press buttons, too. Pressing buttons is fun.
Persona 4 also does this, but that doesn't make it okay and it was the worst part of the game. I hate Persona 4, actually. So don't do what it did!
I guess you can make them press buttons, too. Pressing buttons is fun.
Persona 4 also does this, but that doesn't make it okay and it was the worst part of the game. I hate Persona 4, actually. So don't do what it did!
Crystalgate
694
Many people have suggested you start with action or at least get into the action very soon. I definitely agree with that. I would like to stress that RPGs are games and should be treated as games. If you feel the need to begin with a fifteen minute intro in order to tell your story then I feel that you missed the point of a game. I can usually stand a long intro if something interesting happens for the first time, but it kills the replayability unless you have a skip cutscene feature. Besides, we are supposed to enjoy the games, not "stand" them.
Some also mentioned the number of skills. It's a good idea not to overwhelm the player, but most RPGs take that thought to ridiculous lengths. There is no need to start the player off with one or no skills. If you were to start a new game and your character had three skills names "firebolt", "cure" and "sleep" respectively, would you feel overwhelmed? We know what those skills does, the question is just how effective they are. Just make sure that the player doesn't have to get it right from the get go. Make it so that using the skills correctly rewards the player (faster battles and saving money by having to use less healing items should do it,) but the player can still survive even if she/he struggles with using the right skill for the right time. Then gradually chance the difficulty towards the player having to get it right rather than that just being a convenience.
Some also mentioned the number of skills. It's a good idea not to overwhelm the player, but most RPGs take that thought to ridiculous lengths. There is no need to start the player off with one or no skills. If you were to start a new game and your character had three skills names "firebolt", "cure" and "sleep" respectively, would you feel overwhelmed? We know what those skills does, the question is just how effective they are. Just make sure that the player doesn't have to get it right from the get go. Make it so that using the skills correctly rewards the player (faster battles and saving money by having to use less healing items should do it,) but the player can still survive even if she/he struggles with using the right skill for the right time. Then gradually chance the difficulty towards the player having to get it right rather than that just being a convenience.
