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IT NEEDS TO END
Posts
Max McGee
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CloseReviews take time and energy to write. In some cases, they take a lot of time and energy to write. And maybe other people have been smarter (and more paranoid than me) but I'd still bet a lot of reviewers don't have any offsite backups of their reviews, especially considering that reviews are written in (BBcode?) markup with linked images; it's not even like saving it in word format would be convenient.
Nonetheless, these things we make can be utterly wiped out, with no trace of our hard work and clever writing, if a user is so butthurt (over a review, or otherwise) as to destroy their game page, taking our hard work with them. Even if butthurtness does not enter into it and the game page simply vanishes due to mysterious creator whim or some tectonic shift of the database...the removal of a game page should not obliterate all reviews attached to it.
In my view, reviews need to be uncoupled from a game page; they can and should be linked to from the game page, but they shouldn't go 'down with the ship' if a game page is removed. The option to destroy someone else's work (and yes, giving thoughtful criticism is work) along with your own should not exist.
Will RMN 4 correct this issue?
Nonetheless, these things we make can be utterly wiped out, with no trace of our hard work and clever writing, if a user is so butthurt (over a review, or otherwise) as to destroy their game page, taking our hard work with them. Even if butthurtness does not enter into it and the game page simply vanishes due to mysterious creator whim or some tectonic shift of the database...the removal of a game page should not obliterate all reviews attached to it.
In my view, reviews need to be uncoupled from a game page; they can and should be linked to from the game page, but they shouldn't go 'down with the ship' if a game page is removed. The option to destroy someone else's work (and yes, giving thoughtful criticism is work) along with your own should not exist.
Will RMN 4 correct this issue?
If the game is no longer there, a review is pointless to keep around. Unless the maker of said game wants to take notice of what you said. But if they are butthurt over it, that is irrelevant, more or less.
author=calunio
What's the point of a review if it refers to a game that does not exist (here)?
All movie reviews that do not link to streams of the movies they refer to are pointless?
What about reviews of movies that have been lost or destroyed Are those reviews worthless?
Sontag & Kael would have your head on a plate, bro: criticism itself is an art, and its output deserves to be preserved for posterity.
(As for losing the work you put into the review, now you know why I post my reviews every-fucking-where. Hard for a developer to erase a bad review when it isn't under their control).
I often put a lot of trust into RMN to protect me from lost work and other bullshit. Maybe I should do that less...
Darken
3952
I don't see why reviews shouldn't be kept. Whenever I find an old/obscure/rare RM game I am sometimes curious as to what people thought of it, which is something that should be recorded like a tutorial or an article.
I treasure places like http://www.fryingbear.com/rpgmaker/reviews/reviews.php for that very reason.
I treasure places like http://www.fryingbear.com/rpgmaker/reviews/reviews.php for that very reason.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Games don't disappear from the universe just because they're taken off of RMN. Sometimes the game still exists on other sites. And when the person gets butthurt (or banned) and moves their game to another site, I can see why you would like to make sure your review still exists. Maybe even post it on the other site.
Max, while we are out ending things -- and since you have a now unparalleled success rate with user petitions (re: Space_Monkey's avatar), perhaps we could create some momentum to stop backseat driving other user's reviews. Sometimes it seems like every comment on a review follows this theme: "Your review sucks and you are inferior. Mine would be awesome and have more accurate ratings, if only I would write one. Instead I will criticize your review instead." I see this most often regarding category scores and overall grades. It's even more glaring when the backseat driver admits to never playing the game and just dislikes the reviewer's style or format.
I appreciate seeing constructive criticism as much as the next guy, but I think we've been crossing the line by trying to dismiss other's opinions and experiences because they're not like ours.
(Yes, I realize this is the internets.)
I appreciate seeing constructive criticism as much as the next guy, but I think we've been crossing the line by trying to dismiss other's opinions and experiences because they're not like ours.
(Yes, I realize this is the internets.)
Anaryu
8848
I totally agree with Max on this one - I think Reviews should exist even if the game doesn't anymore.
@Holbert: Why do we allow comments from users other than the author and reviewer? If there's an error in the Review it could be handled by PMs to the review author I think.
Reviews themselves don't seem like a good place for discussion, should be on the game profile itself it seems - and if people have something they want to convey it'll make them want to write their own review more, especially if they can't be heckled by the peanut gallery.
I could see a Like/Dislike rating on reviews to help identify which are totally unfair or bad, but that could also be done with contacting admins with your reasons for wanting it put back under review.
@Holbert: Why do we allow comments from users other than the author and reviewer? If there's an error in the Review it could be handled by PMs to the review author I think.
Reviews themselves don't seem like a good place for discussion, should be on the game profile itself it seems - and if people have something they want to convey it'll make them want to write their own review more, especially if they can't be heckled by the peanut gallery.
I could see a Like/Dislike rating on reviews to help identify which are totally unfair or bad, but that could also be done with contacting admins with your reasons for wanting it put back under review.
I think the ability to add comments to reviews should be up to the reviewer, I might WANT my review to stimulate discussion and thought. I'm not afraid of drama because of what I want to say, and limiting discussion in favor of the school of 'oh god possible drama oh it hurts' is a bad idea for everyone.
Illustrious
520
author=Anaryu
@Holbert: Why do we allow comments from users other than the author and reviewer? If there's an error in the Review it could be handled by PMs to the review author I think.
A lot of people seem to forget that reviews are a communication to the public as well as the creator. If reviews were strictly for communicating opinions and advice to the creator it may as well be done in PM, and giving the reviews a score would be effectively useless.
I would also like people to agree or disagree with a review and not have people be up in arms for them stating their opinions. I do not see why it is drama. Scoring styles are a big source of arguments. If I am to say how I think its unfair or is not valid, it's really not an attack, it's discussion. On the other hand comments need not all be about review scores. I try to be mindful to also talk about something more.
Lastly, there really is no good reason to allow the actions of one user to affect the content of another. Reviews should basically be held in the portfolio of the one who made it.
Darken
3952
I like review "discussions" because people are actually talking and arguing about stuff internal to the site. You know, something the forums sometimes lack.
author=rcholbert
Max, while we are out ending things -- and since you have a now unparalleled success rate with user petitions (re: Space_Monkey's avatar), perhaps we could create some momentum to stop backseat driving other user's reviews. Sometimes it seems like every comment on a review follows this theme: "Your review sucks and you are inferior. Mine would be awesome and have more accurate ratings, if only I would write one. Instead I will criticize your review instead." I see this most often regarding category scores and overall grades. It's even more glaring when the backseat driver admits to never playing the game and just dislikes the reviewer's style or format.
I appreciate seeing constructive criticism as much as the next guy, but I think we've been crossing the line by trying to dismiss other's opinions and experiences because they're not like ours.
(Yes, I realize this is the internets.)
Are you implying that I'm an egregious offender on this point? I really did not think I was, if you are implying that.
Anyway, I personally welcome criticism of my reviews (although maybe that's because I've mainly heard positive things) as long as it's NOT from the person whose game I've just reviewed. (Their intellectual honesty is obviously questionable at that point.)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=rcholbert
perhaps we could create some momentum to stop backseat driving other user's reviews. Sometimes it seems like every comment on a review follows this theme: "Your review sucks and you are inferior. Mine would be awesome and have more accurate ratings, if only I would write one. Instead I will criticize your review instead."
I've done this and then had to go back and edit it after I realized I'd done it. I am aware (on some level) that writing a review of a review is not really a constructive use of my time and makes me look like a douchebag, but I find it hard to help myself from basically giving feedback on everything and everything I see. Especially when there's a comment box below it.
Actually, if you really don't like people reviewing reviews, you could probably just remove the comment boxes below reviews. I cannot really think of any other use for them besides responding to the review. And you would typically (though there are rare exceptions) only respond to it if you want to say something that wasn't already in the review; in other words, you want to point out something the reviewer either missed or was wrong about.
From a reader's perspective, when trying to play a game, I guess seeing a dialogue about a game's qualities and flaws is probably potentially more informative to me than just reading a one-sided review. I can't say for sure that it's ever actually given me useful information though.
Max: I don't think he was implying you were an offender, just that you could "rally the troops" so to speak
For the record I don't mind comments on reviews and I think everything on the site should be commentable. The main problem I have is we all too often only use the review comment box to post the aforementioned ridiculous advice or attempt to steamroll the reviewer.
Yeah, wasn't labeling Max as an offender and didn't mean for it to come off as such.
author=LockeZ
Max: I don't think he was implying you were an offender, just that you could "rally the troops" so to speak
Yeah, wasn't labeling Max as an offender and didn't mean for it to come off as such.
author=rcholbert
Max, while we are out ending things -- and since you have a now unparalleled success rate with user petitions (re: Space_Monkey's avatar), perhaps we could create some momentum to stop backseat driving other user's reviews. Sometimes it seems like every comment on a review follows this theme: "Your review sucks and you are inferior. Mine would be awesome and have more accurate ratings, if only I would write one. Instead I will criticize your review instead." I see this most often regarding category scores and overall grades. It's even more glaring when the backseat driver admits to never playing the game and just dislikes the reviewer's style or format.
This happened on my last review, and someone basically tried to convince people that my opinion was either false or inferior to their own, even though I had beat the game and he/she had admitted to getting "not far" in it. It's one thing to disagree with a review, but another thing entirely to attack a reviewer's credibility, and we should actively seek out ways to deter this kind of behaviour.
