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CUSTOMIZATION VS. COLLECTION

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LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
In a project I'm working in a team on, I had a game design conversation the other day that went something like this:

Other Designer: The problem with this game is that people are all the same at max level. People should get some reward for choosing a role and specializing in it.

Me: I'd agree in a game where you control a party of character, but you only get one character in this game. If you specialize in a role, you're permanently locked out of other roles.

Other designer: Exactly. People need to feel like they've created something unique, that anyone else who hits max level can't just switch a few settings around and do all the same things. In a game with over a lot of classes, the classes need to each provide something that you can only get from that class, and you need to be forced to pick one. It creates replay value.

Me: I completely disagree. I don't want replay value, because replay value is just another way of saying that the player irreversably loses out on things. I want to keep becoming more and more powerful. I want versatility. After 300 hours played, I don't want to have to start over for any reason. This is my character and I intend to keep using it until it can do everything. I'm attracted to games like FF5 and FF Tactics for exactly this reason: I can collect dozens and dozens of different powers that build upon each-other and are useful in all sorts of wild situations and eventually I'll have a mind-blowing array of options. I want to eventually be able to do everything: that's the whole point, to me, of a job system with so many possibilities. What's the advantage to being locked out of something?

Other designer: You can't just decide that for people. People who aren't you actually enjoy creating something unique. They enjoy having all their thought and planning and careful crafting of their character actually matter. If they can just collect everything by level 70 and then freely change between it all, there's no real customization. Everyone is the same and thus all those classes lose their charm. You're not a grand master monk or grand master archer or grand master samurai, you're just a max level generic dude. We need to add ways to let people choose one class and specialize in it, and ultimately become as powerful as if they directionlessly tossed themselves at every class.



I am heavily paraphrasing him and possibly misremembering or omitting parts of some points on account of not having a log of the actual conversation handy. Sorry, other designer. Hopefully I made you sound intelligent.

So, I was wondering what opinions other people had on this topic. These are two viewpoints that are at direct odds with each-other, and both seem to have merits: strong customization that is extremely difficult or impossible to reverse with the end goal of eventually mastering a specific role and building a unique character, vs. massive collection of all powers in the game with the end goal of eventually mastering the system itself and having maximum versatility. Do people have fond memories of games that allow one rather than the other? Do people find themselves drawn more to one type of game? Anyone have any other logical reasons in favor of either idea they want to discuss, or think the above points are flawed?

Anyone who just likes FF4-style games where you have no customization at all can probably just steer clear of this topic.
chana
(Socrates would certainly not contadict me!)
1584
I have played games of this sort and when I choose a class, I do feel I'm making a personal strategic decision, with which I'm going to have to stick and make the best of to win the game, and would find it disappointing if it made no difference, so my preference definitely goes with strong customization.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3229
Massive collection, always.
If I want to play a certain style I'll just....play a certain style. There shouldn't be a need to force myself to make irreversible decisions I may later regret.
Collection is actually a bunch of Customization paths that are available at all times... Let me illustrate it this way:

Customization = choose either A, B or C.
Collection = choose A, B and/or C.

It's a no-brainer to me that Collection is definitely the better choice.

I'd rather like to argue what LockeZ's opinion of replay value is... is there another topic on this?
Either works for me. Pick whatever your system naturally leads towards. For example, if you get X amount of stat points to allocate each level up, it leads naturally to customization.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
A topic about replay value would be interesting to start. Go for it, Avee.
rabitZ
amusing tassadar, your taste in companionship grows ever more inexplicable
1349
I myself prefer to be able to choose a unique path that will make me different to the others, so long as said path is equally effective in overcoming the challenges (i.e.: no path is "weaker" than other).

That being said, it looks like I am in the minority of gamers these days. With Respeccing becoming more and more common amongst new games.

Also, I suppose if one really wants customization, you could just choose one collection path and never detour from it, even though the game makes all of them available.

The key aspect being, again, that the game shouldn't force me to use ALL of the paths. Those who specialize should be able to complete the game just as well as those who collect all the skills. Unless it was made explicitly clear that one particular skill is needed in the future.
Because otherwise, I'd be forced to grind?
Customization for me. I generally want my choices in the game to be meaningful, and that means there must be consequence to my decisions. For me, weighing pros and cons and making a decision and following it through is a lot of the fun in character building.

Plus, it means I can replay the game again, make different choices and have a different experience with the game.
For me I think it actually depends on other factors in the game. For instance, you mentioned FF Tactics. In a game like that where there are tons of characters I can have, I want to collect everything I can possibly have. I want all of it. So Collection. However, in a game with only 1 character or a few characters I want to choose what is best for me and stick with it. Hopefully with some possibility of eventually switching it if I don't like what I did, but it's still customization. I think for you two maybe you should consider a situation where you customize your characters the way the other designer suggested, but then have perhaps an expensive item you can buy to make adjustments to another style of play or character class. I think that would be the perfect way to go allowing the player to choose from a number of classes and feel like there decision matters but than allowing them to change their mind and not be permanently penalized for their decisions.
I like games with replay value. That doesn't necessarily mean I'll ever play it again, but I like that feeling of "what if I chose This instead of That?" As such, customization works more favorably for me.

And besides, even in a collection, I'm usually too busy planning my character's builds to bother with how I can switch around later.
I would prefer collection myself. I hate it when games have stuff you can permanently miss. But to balance it out, maybe it should require a large amount of grinding to get everything.
i like fft type games because everyone is not really the same. you might all have maxed every class but people are still going to config their builds differently. i might be a white mage with jump secondary and u might go black wiz with samurai draw. those are 2 very different classes despite both people having access to all the same options at endgame.

however, i dont like it when you have 2, 3, 4 w/e classes and they're supposed to be different ie. warrior, healer, wizard, ranger and all 4 end up being the same (in that they can all do everything. the tanks cast spell-like skills, the casters wear armor and cast spells that allow them to tank, etc.). balance them, make them equal, but dont make the same. if you're going to do that, just give someone a blank slate and let them customize the whole damn character from the ground up on stats, equip, etc. without some cliched class.
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