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ON THE SUBJECT OF HATING
Posts
yamata no orochi
184
yamata no orochi
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CloseSo I read this article on the internet a while ago. It's specifically about film, but I think it can easily refer to other works of media as well, RPG Maker games included. It's also written by a guy IN ALL CAPS speaking in the voice of the Incredible Hulk, but I think the article is important enough to be worthwhile. Alternatively, if reading in all caps hurts your brain than you can just use this.
The article in question is here.
I think he's right--culture, especially internet culture, seems incredibly caught up in whether something is good or bad, overrated or underrated. The fact that negative voices are often so outspoken probably contributes to the confusion as well. Saying, for example, that "The Social Network is a better movie than The King's Speech because it takes more risks and is less emotionally predictable!" (guilty) is maybe a good way to put things into perspective for yourself. But I don't think it contributes as much as discussing how The Social Network compares and contrasts with real life events, or discussing the meticulous construction and direction of The King's Speech. Often it's impossible not to classify something as "good" or "bad," but why stop there?
Same thing happens in this community, as well. Is Alter A.I.L.A. Genesis overrated? Is I Miss the Sunrise a hidden gem? Perhaps they are. But stop there without taking that extra step to actual critical analysis, and I think that we might deprive ourselves of conversation that might arise by taking these works on their own merits rather than arguing for pages and pages over their relative "worth."
Note that I myself am very guilty of the sin described above! (witness my opinion of The Social Network, and other things as well) I also think that there are also tons of people here who are circumventing labeling in logical, interesting ways: see Solitayre's review of Alter A.I.L.A. Genesis (which is critical but also logical and sane) or mellytan's brilliant reviews of I Miss the Sunrise or Wither. But I do think that sometimes, it's worth taking a step back and realizing that while you could hate a film (Avatar) or a book (Eragon) or a video game (Oblivion), sometimes it's worth looking beyond your own lenses and trying to find meaning.
On the other hand, there are some films and video games and books--franchise tie-ins, badly-made adaptions, etc.--that are so lazily-made that the idea of hating them seems almost justified. Not sure how this fits into the thesis, really! Maybe it's more a matter of mistaking the symptom for the disease?
Anyway, any discussion would be great.
The article in question is here.
I think he's right--culture, especially internet culture, seems incredibly caught up in whether something is good or bad, overrated or underrated. The fact that negative voices are often so outspoken probably contributes to the confusion as well. Saying, for example, that "The Social Network is a better movie than The King's Speech because it takes more risks and is less emotionally predictable!" (guilty) is maybe a good way to put things into perspective for yourself. But I don't think it contributes as much as discussing how The Social Network compares and contrasts with real life events, or discussing the meticulous construction and direction of The King's Speech. Often it's impossible not to classify something as "good" or "bad," but why stop there?
Same thing happens in this community, as well. Is Alter A.I.L.A. Genesis overrated? Is I Miss the Sunrise a hidden gem? Perhaps they are. But stop there without taking that extra step to actual critical analysis, and I think that we might deprive ourselves of conversation that might arise by taking these works on their own merits rather than arguing for pages and pages over their relative "worth."
Note that I myself am very guilty of the sin described above! (witness my opinion of The Social Network, and other things as well) I also think that there are also tons of people here who are circumventing labeling in logical, interesting ways: see Solitayre's review of Alter A.I.L.A. Genesis (which is critical but also logical and sane) or mellytan's brilliant reviews of I Miss the Sunrise or Wither. But I do think that sometimes, it's worth taking a step back and realizing that while you could hate a film (Avatar) or a book (Eragon) or a video game (Oblivion), sometimes it's worth looking beyond your own lenses and trying to find meaning.
On the other hand, there are some films and video games and books--franchise tie-ins, badly-made adaptions, etc.--that are so lazily-made that the idea of hating them seems almost justified. Not sure how this fits into the thesis, really! Maybe it's more a matter of mistaking the symptom for the disease?
Anyway, any discussion would be great.
Avee
5794
But stop there without taking that extra step to actual critical analysis, and I think that we might deprive ourselves of conversation that might arise by taking these works on their own merits rather than arguing for pages and pages over their relative "worth."
That is so true.
Unfortunately, I don't believe most gamers want to think about games further than for a self entertainment purpose, and they rather enjoy evaluating them. Critical analysis is closer to working than playing or expressing one's appreciation. It requires effort and a certain amount of objectivity, and not a lot of people take pleasure in it or are capable of putting their emotional involvement aside to allow analytic thinking.
And I believe that hate is a waste of time and energy, especially when expressed in the trivial world of the Internet.
I agree with that : it's probably not a very intelligent position, and yes, it would imply having a lot of time to waste! The funny thing, I remember enjoying bad movies, but movies, because it was interesting to see where it failed, how the whole thing and movies worked, like being in the backstage of a play, and it was never, in fact, entirely bad (that's if the idea behind the movie is not really sick).
Dyhalto
7536
The writer of that article is a dork. Loving/hating a piece of art has nothing to do with "culture".
People just have their different ways of appreciating things. More artsy people will deconstruct and analyze each part of something individually, whereas less artsy people are satisfied with the entertainment value in a "did/didn't" sense. Just like some people like to immerse themselves in a movie, other people love to talk during key scenes. This is just human character difference.
People just have their different ways of appreciating things. More artsy people will deconstruct and analyze each part of something individually, whereas less artsy people are satisfied with the entertainment value in a "did/didn't" sense. Just like some people like to immerse themselves in a movie, other people love to talk during key scenes. This is just human character difference.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Uh. People are allowed to dislike things.
I mean, okay. I think they should be able to explain why they dislike them if confronted. If you can't explain why you think what you think, then you aren't actually thinking, and you should probably shut up and keep it to yourself. But the idea of disliking something is totally valid.
Some stuff is better than other stuff. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.
I mean, okay. I think they should be able to explain why they dislike them if confronted. If you can't explain why you think what you think, then you aren't actually thinking, and you should probably shut up and keep it to yourself. But the idea of disliking something is totally valid.
Some stuff is better than other stuff. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.
Glib first pass response:
You can have my hate when you pry it from my cold, dead, hateful fingers.
Serious response:
I find the writing style of the article INCREDIBLY FUCKING OBNOXIOUS but it seems well written so let me respond to some points.
This was actually one paragraph but I split it into two; I agree with the second but not the first. I think just as often people are of the opinion that something is "just okay" or "interesting but flawed"--at least I am--they're just less likely to be vehement about that opinion.
For instance, I really and truly believe that anyone who thought Sucker Punch was a good movie should probably set themselves on fire and then extinguish it by leaping into a vat of acid.
Welp, I for one am still just about there....minus the having any idea what I'm doing or thinking I know anything part.
QT. I've been a fan for the last ~11 years at least, and this just reinforces that. Awesome.
As to his speech which makes up the actual meet of this article...I don't know. I want to say I absolutely agree, but the context that this is advice about movies for people who want to get into the movie business is important.
I think we can all agree at least that you shouldn't hate something you haven't seen/experienced because you think it resembles something you didn't like. That's a terrible vice of mine. "I don't want to see X, it looks all shitty, like Y."
And man...I feel like RMN and the community in general would be less of a hive of insufferably smug little cunts if the attitude that games are a gift, every one of them, could somehow be propagated here. I think that is a GREAT way to think of things.
But I mean, on the other hand...I feel like it is culturally important and in fact morally imperative to hate certain things...like Twilight.
You can have my hate when you pry it from my cold, dead, hateful fingers.
Serious response:
I find the writing style of the article INCREDIBLY FUCKING OBNOXIOUS but it seems well written so let me respond to some points.
WE THINK THAT IT (NO MATTER WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS) IS EITHER SOMETHING THAT IS AWESOME OR SOMETHING THAT SUCKS. OUR WILLINGNESS TO GIVE INTO THIS MODE OF THINKING IS ALMOST A UNIVERSAL. EVEN THE MOST ELOQUENT OPINION CAN COME OFF AS EXTREME AND SOMETIMES THERE’S NO WAY TO WRAP A NEAT INTELLECTUAL BOW ON IT. WE SAY IT EITHER AWESOME OR IT SUCKS. AS OBVIOUS RESULT, WE ALL TEND TO ARGUE ABOUT MOVIES QUITE A BIT. THE COMPLETE NATURE OF NUANCE IS LOST IN OUR ENTHUSIASM OR IN OUR SPITE, BOTH OF WHICH GIVE RISE TO AN INHERENT DEFENSIVENESS.
RARELY IS THE CONVERSATION PRODUCTIVE AND EVEN MORE RARELY ARE WE ACTUALLY EDUCATING ANYONE IN THE MANNER WE WOULD WISH. INSTEAD, WE ARE TALKINGAT EACH OTHER. AND THE QUICK + CASUAL STRUCTURE OF THE INTERNET ONLY SEEMS TO MAKE THINGS WORSE.
This was actually one paragraph but I split it into two; I agree with the second but not the first. I think just as often people are of the opinion that something is "just okay" or "interesting but flawed"--at least I am--they're just less likely to be vehement about that opinion.
For instance, I really and truly believe that anyone who thought Sucker Punch was a good movie should probably set themselves on fire and then extinguish it by leaping into a vat of acid.
AND HULK? HULK WAS STILL BACK IN BOSTON, WORKING EDUCATIONAL ODD-JOBS AND BASKING IN THAT SPECIFIC AND RATHER-PROLONGED POST-COLLEGIATE GLOW OF KNOWING EVERYTHING, YET ACTUALLY KNOWING NOTHING WHATSOEVER. YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HULK TALKING ABOUT HERE: THAT TIME WHEN YOU’RE FILLED UNBRIDLED CERTAINTY ABOUT WHO YOU WANT TO BE AND HOW THE WORLD SHOULD WORK AND YET YOU ARE ALSO FILLED WITH THAT DEEP, EXISTENTIAL DREAD BECAUSE YOU’RE JUST NOW REALIZING HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO BECOME A REMOTELY-PRODUCTIVE CITIZEN, FORGET LIFE DREAMS AND SUCH. EVERYONE KNOWS SOME FORM OF THIS. IT IS THE HEARTBREAKING DUALITY OF THE LAST MOMENTS OF ADOLESCENCE… AND SOME FOLKS NEVER ESCAPE.
Welp, I for one am still just about there....minus the having any idea what I'm doing or thinking I know anything part.
SO THE NIGHT FINALLY COMES AND HULK IS, LIKE, FIRST IN LINE. HULK GETS GREAT SEAT AND WAITS PATIENTLY… THEN QUENTIN TARANTINO SHOWS UP WITH FREAKIN’ RZA AND HARVEY WEINSTEIN IN TOW (THIS FEELS LIKE THE SET UP TO A BAD JOKE) AND EVERYONE GOES NUTS. TARANTINO GIVES A LITTLE PREGAME SPEECH, FILLED WITH BITS LIKE “Normally people say ‘awww it looks like shit, don’t judge it yet’ but I saw it this morning and it looks fucking good!” ETC. REALLY, IT EXACT KIND OF GREGARIOUS BRAVADO WHAT YOU WOULD HOPE TO HEAR FROM HIM. SO QUENTIN FINISHES HIS SPEECH AND IMMEDIATELY MAKES A B-LINE FOR THE EXACT CENTER SEAT OF THE THEATER WHICH SAYS “RESERVED.” YES, FOR TEST SCREENINGS TARANTINO RESERVES THE MIDDLE SEAT. THIS IS A WHOLLY UNCOMMON PRACTICE AND THE SURE SIGN OF MAN POSITIVELY GIDDY WITH ENTHUSIASM. FROM THERE, HE PROCEEDS TO WATCH KILL BILL WITH ITS FIRST AUDIENCE AND GETS TO WATCH THEM LOVE THE SHIT OUT OF IT.
QT. I've been a fan for the last ~11 years at least, and this just reinforces that. Awesome.
As to his speech which makes up the actual meet of this article...I don't know. I want to say I absolutely agree, but the context that this is advice about movies for people who want to get into the movie business is important.
QT: “And fuck man, hating movies closes you off to stuff that seems like whatever you hate. Or stuff by the same guy. And who knows? That other stuff could be awesome. Some of my favorite filmmakers made bad movies. It won’t help you. It just won’t. It stops your development right in its tracks, okay? I mean like everything and I ain’t trying to get you to be like fucking me or anything. I’m just saying I think it’s better for you. And it makes me way, way happier. Never hate a movie. They’re gifts. Every fucking one of em.”
I think we can all agree at least that you shouldn't hate something you haven't seen/experienced because you think it resembles something you didn't like. That's a terrible vice of mine. "I don't want to see X, it looks all shitty, like Y."
And man...I feel like RMN and the community in general would be less of a hive of insufferably smug little cunts if the attitude that games are a gift, every one of them, could somehow be propagated here. I think that is a GREAT way to think of things.
But I mean, on the other hand...I feel like it is culturally important and in fact morally imperative to hate certain things...like Twilight.
And man...I feel like RMN and the community in general would be less of a hive of insufferably smug little cunts if the attitude that games are a gift, every one of them, could somehow be propagated here. I think that is a GREAT way to think of things.
That's how I think of things. And not just for games, but reviews and articles, too. (but when I accept them people yell at me :< )
Disliking stuff is fine. But to me it's a little weird that grown ass men feel the need to hate things and spread their vitrolic hate around like a funk.
AABattery
732
I really don't think that any normal person really hates anything. Yeah, you might say that you hate a game/book/show/movie, but do you really hate it?
I think that people use hate too loosely... Dislike is a better word.
I think that people use hate too loosely... Dislike is a better word.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Feldschlacht IV
Disliking stuff is fine. But to me it's a little weird that grown ass men feel the need to hate things and spread their vitrolic hate around like a funk.
To hate something is to love its lack or its opposite. You cannot have hate without having an equal amount of love. They are two sides of the same coin - the coin called passion.
Hate is just a term meaning "strong dislike" guys. It's not some absurd over-the-top supervillain emotion.
Yeah I know, I'm not talking about supervillain crazy literal hate either; my feelings even apply to 'strong dislike'. I don't 'strongly dislike' many things, even if it's something as relatively trivial as video games or movies or whatever. Music yeah, maybe.
But I reserve 'strongly dislike' for stuff like, world hunger or child abuse or social injustice or the like. Not to say I have some sort of ivory tower thing going on; it's just that I simply avoid things I don't have a taste for, I don't linger around things I dislike long enough for it to ferment into 'strong dislike', I have less and less time for that shit.
But I reserve 'strongly dislike' for stuff like, world hunger or child abuse or social injustice or the like. Not to say I have some sort of ivory tower thing going on; it's just that I simply avoid things I don't have a taste for, I don't linger around things I dislike long enough for it to ferment into 'strong dislike', I have less and less time for that shit.
author=pyrodoomThe books have the infamous nickname of Colored Bricks (or something like that) due to their sheer size and weight.
You are right...Eragon does suck, IT'S TOO FUCKING LONG/BORING!!! v_v
author=KingArthurauthor=pyrodoomThe books have the infamous nickname of Colored Bricks (or something like that) due to their sheer size and weight.
You are right...Eragon does suck, IT'S TOO FUCKING LONG/BORING!!! v_v
Eragon is a blue brick then.
And man...I feel like RMN and the community in general would be less of a hive of insufferably smug little cunts if the attitude that games are a gift, every one of them, could somehow be propagated here. I think that is a GREAT way to think of things.That's how I think of things. And not just for games, but reviews and articles, too. (but when I accept them people yell at me :< )
Were the two of you separated at birth by any chance...?
author=AABattery
I really don't think that any normal person really hates anything. Yeah, you might say that you hate a game/book/show/movie, but do you really hate it?
I think that people use hate too loosely... Dislike is a better word.
In some cases, hate is the word I mean to use. I hate Sucker Punch. I hate Harry Potter. I hate Twilight.
AABattery
732
author=Max McGee
In some cases, hate is the word I mean to use. I hate Sucker Punch. I hate Harry Potter. I hate Twilight.
... Agreed...
