Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
ATTENTION
Posts
Max McGee
View playlists
CloseKentona, Shinan, Deckiller, et al. Please feel free to move this thread
We talk about game design & theory a lot here. But of course good game design is wasted without good advertising. (Although if you're one of the extremists of the "I do this for the pure pleasure of doing it and absolutely nothing else motivates me" set, you might not agree with that second sentence. This is not a topic for you, then.)
Now we all know we should all be looking for exposure and recognition and +DOWNLOADS+ outside the "incestuous cesspool" that is RMN (Craze's words, not mine; I kind of like RMN). This is really really obvious advice. A given. So let's NOT discuss this here. Should this be discussed? Yes, definitely, but elsewhere. My focus is more narrow.
I want to talk about getting people to play your game ON RMN. This is kind of a verboten topic, you know? Anyone who even brings it is up is liable to be virtually stoned (in the way that it isn't fun to be stoned). This is a serious topic and I would like it if as many posters as possible could answer these questions HONESTLY. I would very much like to create an environment where no one will be judged for their answers. In fact, if people could try to hide tag their answers and not read anyone else's answers until they've answered themselves, that'd be pretty cool.
Please do not frame any of your answers in the context of game-making. This is not about what you do when making a game to make it attention grabbing so people keep playing it. But I guess game "design" decisions you make specifically to attract downloads are fair uh...game. To discuss.
So, to recap, this thread is not about:
* The fallacy that more people play games that are better or in fact even challenging that that is a fallacy.
"I make good games"/"I try to make better games" is not a valid answer here.
* Getting attention from outside of RMN, although that deserves a separate topic.
1) What actions do you perceive as actions you can take to increase the number of people here on RMN who are paying attention to your game? Be specific.
2) Which of those actions are you taking, and which are you not taking?
3) In your viewpoint, do you consider any of the possible actions available to you to be unethical, immoral, or in poor taste?
4) If so, why?
5) If so, do you avoid those actions, or grit your teeth and do it anyway?
6) Are there any other reasons you have for not taking actions that you think would bring more attention to your game?
7) Alright, enough about what you're not doing. Tell us more about what you ARE doing to promote your game and how it's working for you. Be honest and direct!
8) Are there any events that you feel could influence the amount of attention you're getting that are beyond your control? Tell us about them.
9) Have you ever successfully "gamed the system" in an attempt to influence an event outside of your direct control? Were you successful?
We talk about game design & theory a lot here. But of course good game design is wasted without good advertising. (Although if you're one of the extremists of the "I do this for the pure pleasure of doing it and absolutely nothing else motivates me" set, you might not agree with that second sentence. This is not a topic for you, then.)
Now we all know we should all be looking for exposure and recognition and +DOWNLOADS+ outside the "incestuous cesspool" that is RMN (Craze's words, not mine; I kind of like RMN). This is really really obvious advice. A given. So let's NOT discuss this here. Should this be discussed? Yes, definitely, but elsewhere. My focus is more narrow.
I want to talk about getting people to play your game ON RMN. This is kind of a verboten topic, you know? Anyone who even brings it is up is liable to be virtually stoned (in the way that it isn't fun to be stoned). This is a serious topic and I would like it if as many posters as possible could answer these questions HONESTLY. I would very much like to create an environment where no one will be judged for their answers. In fact, if people could try to hide tag their answers and not read anyone else's answers until they've answered themselves, that'd be pretty cool.
Please do not frame any of your answers in the context of game-making. This is not about what you do when making a game to make it attention grabbing so people keep playing it. But I guess game "design" decisions you make specifically to attract downloads are fair uh...game. To discuss.
So, to recap, this thread is not about:
* The fallacy that more people play games that are better or in fact even challenging that that is a fallacy.
"I make good games"/"I try to make better games" is not a valid answer here.
* Getting attention from outside of RMN, although that deserves a separate topic.
1) What actions do you perceive as actions you can take to increase the number of people here on RMN who are paying attention to your game? Be specific.
2) Which of those actions are you taking, and which are you not taking?
3) In your viewpoint, do you consider any of the possible actions available to you to be unethical, immoral, or in poor taste?
4) If so, why?
5) If so, do you avoid those actions, or grit your teeth and do it anyway?
6) Are there any other reasons you have for not taking actions that you think would bring more attention to your game?
7) Alright, enough about what you're not doing. Tell us more about what you ARE doing to promote your game and how it's working for you. Be honest and direct!
8) Are there any events that you feel could influence the amount of attention you're getting that are beyond your control? Tell us about them.
9) Have you ever successfully "gamed the system" in an attempt to influence an event outside of your direct control? Were you successful?
will anyone actually answer 9) truthfully?
Maybe if they didn't think you were watching this thread like a hawk. : P
Also holy shit your current avatar is AMAZING, please don't change it for at least one month.
We'll see...
Also, I will be the first to admit that I don't catch everything, so it will come as no surprise if people have successfully gamed the system. So if there is some way to game the system that I am not aware of (or monitoring properly) I would like to remedy that.
Also, I will be the first to admit that I don't catch everything, so it will come as no surprise if people have successfully gamed the system. So if there is some way to game the system that I am not aware of (or monitoring properly) I would like to remedy that.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
The biggest "kosher" way of increasing visibility on RMN, as far as I'm aware, is to simply be active enough in the community that people know your name and know you are serious about game design. You just interact socially in the forums, and eventually you become someone that people see all the time and so they become interested in your games - especially if you mention them from time to time in discussions when they're relevent. This is something that takes months or years before you will get results, but the results are undeniable. People download games by the big players. This method is clearly encouraged by the overwhelming majority of the users and staff, and I think is largely considered the "ideal" way of improving your downloads.
On the other hand, mentioning your game in any discussions outside of your own game page more than about once a month is considered to be in bad taste. You don't ever want to look like advertising is actually your goal, even if it is. I was once accused by Craze of caring about nothing but plugging my game because I mentioned it three times over the course of five months. Granted, one of those three was very much a very thinly veiled attempt at plugging it, but the other two were relevant examples in game development discussions (which I consider tasteful).
A simpler method is to request Let's Try videos of your game. I have personally played several games that I saw in Let's Try videos. Actually getting anyone to do such a video for you can be a pain. I've personally asked almost every person who does Let's Try videos to do one of Vindication and gotten none yet, although Aurabolt did a live streaming playthrough (which offers even better feedback than an LT but provides far less public visibility).
Bombarding the front page is considered an unethical way of getting hits. Tactically uploading new screenshots or downloads from time to time, however, is allowable and is a good way to keep your game in people's minds. I've uploaded a few screenshots (about ten over the course of a year) to my game profile just to put my game on the front page for a day or so. It does get me hits. Posting in the screenshot topic has about the same result, but reaches a different (if overlapping) audience, so I try to post screenshots in both places typically. Never tried the download thing, as I can't really justify changing the game just for publicity and I feel bad about just re-uploading the exact same thing.
Buzzing games, buzzing news stories, spotlights, gamespots, and featured games are not reliable ways of getting people to download your game. They get people to pay more attention to games that are already getting plenty of attention, while offering no clear way of actually improving visibility for anything that's not already in the top 2%. They are useful features for players looking for games, but they are not useful features for developers trying to improve their marketing. They are outside of our control.
I've requested a review for my game in the Secret Santa thing, in hopes that it will give me some downloads. Given the size of the event, it probably won't actually do so - any review of my game will be likely immediately bumped off the front page by the other 40 reviews.
On the other hand, mentioning your game in any discussions outside of your own game page more than about once a month is considered to be in bad taste. You don't ever want to look like advertising is actually your goal, even if it is. I was once accused by Craze of caring about nothing but plugging my game because I mentioned it three times over the course of five months. Granted, one of those three was very much a very thinly veiled attempt at plugging it, but the other two were relevant examples in game development discussions (which I consider tasteful).
A simpler method is to request Let's Try videos of your game. I have personally played several games that I saw in Let's Try videos. Actually getting anyone to do such a video for you can be a pain. I've personally asked almost every person who does Let's Try videos to do one of Vindication and gotten none yet, although Aurabolt did a live streaming playthrough (which offers even better feedback than an LT but provides far less public visibility).
Bombarding the front page is considered an unethical way of getting hits. Tactically uploading new screenshots or downloads from time to time, however, is allowable and is a good way to keep your game in people's minds. I've uploaded a few screenshots (about ten over the course of a year) to my game profile just to put my game on the front page for a day or so. It does get me hits. Posting in the screenshot topic has about the same result, but reaches a different (if overlapping) audience, so I try to post screenshots in both places typically. Never tried the download thing, as I can't really justify changing the game just for publicity and I feel bad about just re-uploading the exact same thing.
Buzzing games, buzzing news stories, spotlights, gamespots, and featured games are not reliable ways of getting people to download your game. They get people to pay more attention to games that are already getting plenty of attention, while offering no clear way of actually improving visibility for anything that's not already in the top 2%. They are useful features for players looking for games, but they are not useful features for developers trying to improve their marketing. They are outside of our control.
I've requested a review for my game in the Secret Santa thing, in hopes that it will give me some downloads. Given the size of the event, it probably won't actually do so - any review of my game will be likely immediately bumped off the front page by the other 40 reviews.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
derple post
If "gaming the system" is the same thing as "having any sort of control over how many hits and downloads I get" then I think your goals might be at pretty direct odds with Max's.
Also I need the fullsize image for that avatar, that is amazing. I actually have that kind of turtle as a pet, it's a russian tortoise.
If "gaming the system" is the same thing as "having any sort of control over how many hits and downloads I get" then I think your goals might be at pretty direct odds with Max's.
Also I need the fullsize image for that avatar, that is amazing. I actually have that kind of turtle as a pet, it's a russian tortoise.
1) Upload screenshots more frequently.
Release concept art of characters.
Put up promo art.
Make a trailer? I dunno if anyone actually watches videos here.
Blog about the unique features of the game.
Constantly upload new downloads with vague promises of bugfixes every day.
Ask friends to post on all my blogs to keep them buzzing.
Use moe and fanservicy art.
Post a bunch of high-quality concept art or mockup screenshots for games I will never intend to release and continue to string people along with periodic updates about setbacks with new promo art but never a demo.
2) I blog about the unique features and periodically post art and screenshots.
3) Yes.
4) Because they're counterproductive to actually producing a solid, original, and above all, playable game.
5) I avoid them.
6) I don't know what else I can do.
7) A few things I've tried:
-Releasing progress reports (no noticeable impact on views, comments, or downloads)
-Releasing more frequent screenshots (same)
-Releasing a public beta (a couple initial comments, but no real noticeable impact aside from that)
-Releasing music from the soundtrack (same)
-Blogging about getting mentioned/interviewed in magazines or indie game sites (same)
8) Not really. I submitted to RS!D 11 but there was no noticeable increase in traffic.
9) I admittedly haven't really participated in events around here until this past RS!D, and it's not like you can game that.
author=LockeZWell, I meant like reuploading your game download 17 times a day, or spamming the Latest Images feed or Blogs feed. Things that are pretty blatant.
derple post
If "gaming the system" is the same thing as "having any sort of control over how many hits and downloads I get" then I think your goals might be at pretty direct odds with Max's.
Also I need the fullsize image for that avatar, that is amazing. I actually have that kind of turtle as a pet, it's a russian tortoise.
EDIT:
Oh, Sailerius! You so jaded!
I don't know why you make it sound like a touchy subject when it's not, but here we go.
1) What actions do you perceive as actions you can take to increase the number of people here on RMN who are paying attention to your game? Be specific.
Posting blogs, posting new screenshots, mentioning my games on forum topics, talking about it on irc channel. Overall, posting updates frequently. And, of course, making it LOOK cool. I guess I can also be accused of drawing attention by making games about contentious themes, which is not false, but the point is more than just having a high number of downloads.
2) Which of those actions are you taking, and which are you not taking?
Well... the first project I posted here was finished before I posted. The second one was made in 2 weeks, and the third one is not on RMN. But overall, I think I do all of the above... but no so much. I'll admit, I tend to trust that quality will be the biggest ad. I don't ad much.
3) In your viewpoint, do you consider any of the possible actions available to you to be unethical, immoral, or in poor taste?
Not at all.
4) If so, why?
5) If so, do you avoid those actions, or grit your teeth and do it anyway?
6) Are there any other reasons you have for not taking actions that you think would bring more attention to your game?
Sometimes I think desperate attempts to get attention (like flooding the front page with screenshots) tend to get negative attention. It's like there's a message conveyed "my game is so bad that I need to make a lot of ad so people would play it". This is not true, of course. But people who advertise their games too much are indeed annoying.
7) Alright, enough about what you're not doing. Tell us more about what you ARE doing to promote your game and how it's working for you. Be honest and direct!
Not much, really. My non-major projects have very few downloads. And the major projects have many downloads mostly from outside RMN, and that doesn't fit this topic.
8) Are there any events that you feel could influence the amount of attention you're getting that are beyond your control? Tell us about them.
Possibly, but none I can think of.
9) Have you ever successfully "gamed the system" in an attempt to influence an event outside of your direct control? Were you successful?
No, never tried.
I'll see what other people say before I post anything else. I agree with LockeZ mostly.
1) What actions do you perceive as actions you can take to increase the number of people here on RMN who are paying attention to your game? Be specific.
Posting blogs, posting new screenshots, mentioning my games on forum topics, talking about it on irc channel. Overall, posting updates frequently. And, of course, making it LOOK cool. I guess I can also be accused of drawing attention by making games about contentious themes, which is not false, but the point is more than just having a high number of downloads.
2) Which of those actions are you taking, and which are you not taking?
Well... the first project I posted here was finished before I posted. The second one was made in 2 weeks, and the third one is not on RMN. But overall, I think I do all of the above... but no so much. I'll admit, I tend to trust that quality will be the biggest ad. I don't ad much.
3) In your viewpoint, do you consider any of the possible actions available to you to be unethical, immoral, or in poor taste?
Not at all.
4) If so, why?
5) If so, do you avoid those actions, or grit your teeth and do it anyway?
6) Are there any other reasons you have for not taking actions that you think would bring more attention to your game?
Sometimes I think desperate attempts to get attention (like flooding the front page with screenshots) tend to get negative attention. It's like there's a message conveyed "my game is so bad that I need to make a lot of ad so people would play it". This is not true, of course. But people who advertise their games too much are indeed annoying.
7) Alright, enough about what you're not doing. Tell us more about what you ARE doing to promote your game and how it's working for you. Be honest and direct!
Not much, really. My non-major projects have very few downloads. And the major projects have many downloads mostly from outside RMN, and that doesn't fit this topic.
8) Are there any events that you feel could influence the amount of attention you're getting that are beyond your control? Tell us about them.
Possibly, but none I can think of.
9) Have you ever successfully "gamed the system" in an attempt to influence an event outside of your direct control? Were you successful?
No, never tried.
I'll see what other people say before I post anything else. I agree with LockeZ mostly.
On the subject of attention, before you get all meta and philosophical, how about suggesting a few things on RMN to get attention and suggest some exemplary games!
"Occupy RMN! We are the 98%"
"Occupy RMN! We are the 98%"
I mean, the biggest philosophical question I have is definitely "WHY IS THERE SUCH A STIGMA ASSOCIATED WITH WANTING PEOPLE TO PLAY YOUR GAME, WHEN IT'S THE ONE THING WE ALL HAVE IN COMMON" but I don't feel ready to address it yet.
No, actually, I want to hear about everything even the "givens".
I think I can safely say this has absolutely not worked for me.
The level of vitriol here is startling when the one of your games I clicked at random has 8200+ downloads. Many of us are struggling to get to 82 downloads, which is 1/100th of the attention your game has received.
LockeZ: Thank you for spoilering. Everyone else, read the OP?
Before anyone else posts a long angry rant or similar post, please answer the initial questions. Rants are fine, but lay down some basic answers first.
EDIT: I'm going to assume things like "release more screenshots" and "blog about designing interesting features" are a given and not bother to mention them.
No, actually, I want to hear about everything even the "givens".
The biggest "kosher" way of increasing visibility on RMN, as far as I'm aware, is to simply be active enough in the community that people know your name and know you are serious about game design. You just interact socially in the forums, and eventually you become someone that people see all the time and so they become interested in your games - especially if you mention them from time to time in discussions when they're relevent. This is something that takes months or years before you will get results, but the results are undeniable. People download games by the big players. This method is clearly encouraged by the overwhelming majority of the users and staff, and I think is largely considered the "ideal" way of improving your downloads.
I think I can safely say this has absolutely not worked for me.
1) Constantly upload new downloads with vague promises of bugfixes every day. Ask friends to post on all my blogs to keep them buzzing. Use FFVI/Chrono Trigger/Rudra rips. Switch to RM2k3. Make an FF fangame. Use moe and fanservicy art. Post a bunch of high-quality concept art or mockup screenshots for games I will never intend to release and continue to string people along with periodic updates about setbacks with new promo art but never a demo. Above all, never, ever release a complete game.
2) None.
3) Yes.
4) Because they're counterproductive to actually producing a solid, original, and above all, playable game.
5) I avoid them.
6) I don't know what else I can do.
7) A few things I've tried:
-Releasing progress reports (no noticeable impact on views, comments, or downloads)
-Releasing more frequent screenshots (same)
-Releasing a public beta (a couple initial comments, but no real noticeable impact aside from that)
-Releasing music from the soundtrack (same)
-Blogging about getting mentioned/interviewed in magazines or indie game sites (same)
8) Not really. I submitted to RS!D 11 but there was no noticeable increase in traffic.
9) I admittedly haven't really participated in events around here until this past RS!D, and it's not like you can game that.
The level of vitriol here is startling when the one of your games I clicked at random has 8200+ downloads. Many of us are struggling to get to 82 downloads, which is 1/100th of the attention your game has received.
LockeZ: Thank you for spoilering. Everyone else, read the OP?
Before anyone else posts a long angry rant or similar post, please answer the initial questions. Rants are fine, but lay down some basic answers first.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I'm pretty sure if people suggested their own games in those topics, Kentona, that those people would be shunned. And that that kind of behavior were not shunned, the topics would pretty much be considered cesspools. Like I said, the various types of featured content are neat, but they're not viable ways to increase the visibility of your own games.
lay down some basic answers first.Ah, I see. I figured you were asking about methods besides the traditional. I'll edit my post.
What I am hearing, though, is two contradictory things: "only the best games get attention" and "the best games can't get attention because of the deluge of crap".
And, while you might not reverse your perceived fortunes, why not take the altruistic route and sift through RMN for some gems you think are worthy?
And, while you might not reverse your perceived fortunes, why not take the altruistic route and sift through RMN for some gems you think are worthy?
author=kentonaI think the problem is that a game needs to be somehow featured to get attention, but if nobody knows about it, then how will it ever be chosen to be featured?
What I am hearing, though, is two contradictory things: "only the best games get attention" and "the best games can't get attention because of the deluge of crap".
EDIT: It's often very hard, especially in the case of "hidden gem" games, to tell what games are going to be worth downloading or not just from the gamepage, and there are so many gamepages that it's daunting finding a starting point.
I've thought about this, and....are the regulars of RMN really our target audience? I mean, really? On one hand it makes sense because they're the people who are around here a lot, but it's generally the same handful of people, not a large group, and generally the regulars here are already up to date on the projects that interest them.
Actually, this topic, coupled with my above thoughts, just gave me an idea.
Supposing we had a game recommendations thread where people say "I like x and y kinds of games, or games like game a, game b, and people posted games they thought they'd like based on their given criteria. You could suggest your own game if you genuinely thought they'd like it based on what they said, but that isn't the point of the exercise. If you know about other games on the site made by other people, you'd naturally want to suggest those as well. How would something like that sound? Would anyone participate?
Actually, this topic, coupled with my above thoughts, just gave me an idea.
Supposing we had a game recommendations thread where people say "I like x and y kinds of games, or games like game a, game b, and people posted games they thought they'd like based on their given criteria. You could suggest your own game if you genuinely thought they'd like it based on what they said, but that isn't the point of the exercise. If you know about other games on the site made by other people, you'd naturally want to suggest those as well. How would something like that sound? Would anyone participate?
author=Solitayre
I've thought about this, and....are the regulars of RMN really our target audience? I mean, really? On one hand it makes sense because they're the people who are around here a lot, but it's generally the same handful of people, not a large group, and generally the regulars here are already up to date on the projects that interest them.
Actually, this topic, coupled with my above thoughts, just gave me an idea.
Supposing we had a game recommendations thread where people say "I like x and y kinds of games, or games like game a, game b, and people posted games they thought they'd like based on their given criteria. You could suggest your own game if you genuinely thought they'd like it based on what they said, but that isn't the point of the exercise. If you know about other games on the site made by other people, you'd naturally want to suggest those as well. How would something like that sound? Would anyone participate?
Sounds like a wiki or something similar would be a good format for this. There would have to be several different categories you can compare games by. Say I wanted to find a game with a story like AAG, but didn't care about the gameplay. Or I wanted a game that played like Edifice, but didn't care about the story. I think it's a good idea, though!
A wiki is an idea that sounds good in theory but would just end up promoting the elitism we've been trying to move away from lately. It's an interesting idea, though.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Solitayre
I've thought about this, and....are the regulars of RMN really our target audience? I mean, really? On one hand it makes sense because they're the people who are around here a lot, but it's generally the same handful of people, not a large group, and generally the regulars here are already up to date on the projects that interest them.
I think you're neglecting to account for the lurkers. I get the feeling there are thousands of people who visit the forums each month, and even though only a handful of them actually post stuff, a lot more of them read stuff.
Edit: This creepy avatar is making it really hard to hold a decent conversation. I look at my own posts and I can't take myself seriously. Dammit, Skie.
