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Sexy advise to all. DO NOT create a sandbox. instead, create an illusion that keeps the player in your grasp. If the player is free to do W/E, they will probably run into a quality problem. Bridge free roam with FF13. Making a RM Skyrim is idiotic, IMO.
Clareain_Christopher- 12/30/2012 06:16 PM
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author=Isrierilol =3
You should've just said "Do what Dragon Warrior did."
It's mostly a rant on games that think a free-roam feature makes their game appealing, and don't realise that their
shooting themselves in the foot 80% of the time.
This also holds weight when designing characters, and giving the player all the customization in the world.
All I can say to single game devs who do this is good luck.
You speak the truth, good man! While I really enjoy free roam games, there's a difference between "here, have this giant open world and go crazy" and "here's a couple of really great, smaller maps but you can choose what you wanna do within reason, and how you wanna make yo' money/exp."
Skyrim is just way too huge, and would've been better with more direction. I find that people who make RPG Maker gamz tend to stop giving their players direction and purpose, which ends up discouraging players from doing anything. I find myself in a situation all too often where there is FAR TOO MUCH to do. It starts to get confusing and spoils the whole experience.
See Rune Factory for all your awesome game making needs because it is obviously the best game in the entire world. *goes back to playing it 24/7 and not working on her game*
Skyrim is just way too huge, and would've been better with more direction. I find that people who make RPG Maker gamz tend to stop giving their players direction and purpose, which ends up discouraging players from doing anything. I find myself in a situation all too often where there is FAR TOO MUCH to do. It starts to get confusing and spoils the whole experience.
See Rune Factory for all your awesome game making needs because it is obviously the best game in the entire world. *goes back to playing it 24/7 and not working on her game*
author=Caz
Skyrim is just way too huge, and would've been better with more direction. I find that people who make RPG Maker gamz tend to stop giving their players direction and purpose, which ends up discouraging players from doing anything. I find myself in a situation all too often where there is FAR TOO MUCH to do. It starts to get confusing and spoils the whole experience.
Sorry to say here, but you're in the minority. Bethesda fans like more, not less. They like lore, things to do, places to go. Compared to other sandbox games, Skyrim goes out of its way to direct the player through the main quest.
But yes, one should never attempt total sandbox with RPGMaker.
I liked Morrowind a lot, and the Bethesdan Fallout games were pretty decent. Skyrim's main storyline was just a bit too boring for me because having played through Oblivion, there comes a point when you realise that it is going to be exactly the same: get a million different items from a million different caves and have a little fight at the end that doesn't really rely on any skills you got through gameplay, but instead relies on an item or some tactic you get taught in the last few moments of the game.. not that I've yet completed Skyrim, but I imagine that's how it'll go down from experience.
But that's not so much what I mean. There's plenty of stuff telling you HOW to do the storyline, but nothing urges you to actually get it done. There's nothing truly frightening around the world (the dragons don't significantly alter towns you visit or even permanently kill people) that really kicks your butt into action to get it done. I could jump back into the game now and get it done if I wanted to, but there's no true purpose to it from what I can see. The whole point of a world is that it changes, and that should be the point of free roam too. If I wrote a book about an entire country then I'd have it evolve at quite a pace. In Skyrim, it's at a standstill until you decide you want to go do a mission to make it change slightly. The best changes are the significant ones you don't have control over, and those are the most magical/exciting parts of a free roam game.
I don't dislike Skyrim, but there were things they should've just left out. The whole "earn an honest living through woodcutting!" bollocks is trampled by being able to stab a bandit for twenty times as much money in an instant, and it becomes less 'free roam' and more 'find what makes the most money the fastest'. That's all it pretty much boils down to, and the fun factor from a versatile money-making environment goes down the drain as you pinpoint the exact activity that earns the most money the fastest and most fun. In the world of woodcutting versus fighting, I think I'd much rather press several different buttons at some dragon tail for a bit than have to press one button at some logs every few minutes for barely enough cash to scrape together some potions.
I am very difficult to please when it comes to games, and I tend to tear the crap outta them.. so I'm sorry if I was harsh here. Skyrim IS a good game, I will agree - but it's not MY free roam perfection.
But that's not so much what I mean. There's plenty of stuff telling you HOW to do the storyline, but nothing urges you to actually get it done. There's nothing truly frightening around the world (the dragons don't significantly alter towns you visit or even permanently kill people) that really kicks your butt into action to get it done. I could jump back into the game now and get it done if I wanted to, but there's no true purpose to it from what I can see. The whole point of a world is that it changes, and that should be the point of free roam too. If I wrote a book about an entire country then I'd have it evolve at quite a pace. In Skyrim, it's at a standstill until you decide you want to go do a mission to make it change slightly. The best changes are the significant ones you don't have control over, and those are the most magical/exciting parts of a free roam game.
I don't dislike Skyrim, but there were things they should've just left out. The whole "earn an honest living through woodcutting!" bollocks is trampled by being able to stab a bandit for twenty times as much money in an instant, and it becomes less 'free roam' and more 'find what makes the most money the fastest'. That's all it pretty much boils down to, and the fun factor from a versatile money-making environment goes down the drain as you pinpoint the exact activity that earns the most money the fastest and most fun. In the world of woodcutting versus fighting, I think I'd much rather press several different buttons at some dragon tail for a bit than have to press one button at some logs every few minutes for barely enough cash to scrape together some potions.
I am very difficult to please when it comes to games, and I tend to tear the crap outta them.. so I'm sorry if I was harsh here. Skyrim IS a good game, I will agree - but it's not MY free roam perfection.
You're not going to hurt my feelings by tearing down Skyrim, but I don't buy the case you're making. Sounds a bit too influenced by the negative experience from Oblivion's main quest which, I agree, is rather monotonous. However, Skyrim's main quest is magnitudes better than Oblivion's. Fighting dragons is the only annoyance, and with a few mods that problem is solved. Most experienced players delay the main quest so they can dink around for a good 100 hours before the first dragon appears.
Bethesda games are what you make of them. If you are an ODC min-maxer, then yes you will find yourself searching for the most efficient way to level up and acquire things, and often times that involves tedium - tedium that you forced upon yourself since the game does not require grinding. (No one relies on woodcutting for regular income.) So I'd wager sandbox games are just not your bag.
Consider also that Bethesda had to carefully limit how much impact players and the main quest have on the world. If you wipe out a town, suddenly several quest chains will be broken. They had to create a huge, ungodly amount of content that all works together and doesn't break each other, and that's difficult.
Bethesda games are what you make of them. If you are an ODC min-maxer, then yes you will find yourself searching for the most efficient way to level up and acquire things, and often times that involves tedium - tedium that you forced upon yourself since the game does not require grinding. (No one relies on woodcutting for regular income.) So I'd wager sandbox games are just not your bag.
Consider also that Bethesda had to carefully limit how much impact players and the main quest have on the world. If you wipe out a town, suddenly several quest chains will be broken. They had to create a huge, ungodly amount of content that all works together and doesn't break each other, and that's difficult.
(In the past I seem to have offended people pretty badly by ripping their favourite games to shreds, so it was just a disclaimer. XD)
Oh but I do love sandbox, and I've always much preferred it to on-the-rails stuff. I spent 50 hours just wanging around in Skyrim, and enjoyed just being an arse and doing stupid stuff on there than actually leveling and earning cash.
I do appreciate that it's difficult to have so much content while also not breaking your game, and Bethesda have done a fairly good job of keep it all bug-free. But I do hope they'll start to take their games in another direction, because it's beginning to look like the same game over and over again with different add-ons. They might as well not release the next Elder Scrolls game and just continue putting DLC out for it, because the gameplay hardly changes.
I would rely on woodcutting for a regular income if the system was better, like it should have been. There should be the viable option to make money JUST from that, or else what's the point of it even being in there? Fable 3 did it well (I imagine that's also going to get me lynched, because no one likes that game but me D:), andddd.. while I do really freaking hate mini-games in RPGs, it was done pretty well. The rewards were decent, and you could make a good living from bartending and other friendly crap that didn't involve straying too far from town.
I would like it if a town was wiped out and all those quests disappeared. It would give some imperative to wanting to go there and defend it from the dragon. I love games like that where something bad happens if I don't act upon it and help out.. but yes, like you say, that would be difficult to balance well. And probably even harder to do in RM.
Oh but I do love sandbox, and I've always much preferred it to on-the-rails stuff. I spent 50 hours just wanging around in Skyrim, and enjoyed just being an arse and doing stupid stuff on there than actually leveling and earning cash.
I do appreciate that it's difficult to have so much content while also not breaking your game, and Bethesda have done a fairly good job of keep it all bug-free. But I do hope they'll start to take their games in another direction, because it's beginning to look like the same game over and over again with different add-ons. They might as well not release the next Elder Scrolls game and just continue putting DLC out for it, because the gameplay hardly changes.
I would rely on woodcutting for a regular income if the system was better, like it should have been. There should be the viable option to make money JUST from that, or else what's the point of it even being in there? Fable 3 did it well (I imagine that's also going to get me lynched, because no one likes that game but me D:), andddd.. while I do really freaking hate mini-games in RPGs, it was done pretty well. The rewards were decent, and you could make a good living from bartending and other friendly crap that didn't involve straying too far from town.
I would like it if a town was wiped out and all those quests disappeared. It would give some imperative to wanting to go there and defend it from the dragon. I love games like that where something bad happens if I don't act upon it and help out.. but yes, like you say, that would be difficult to balance well. And probably even harder to do in RM.
author=CazIt's not too difficult having quests disappear, or minor characters die off due to the player not completing side quests.
(In the past I seem to have offended people pretty badly by ripping their favourite games to shreds, so it was just a disclaimer. XD)
Oh but I do love sandbox, and I've always much preferred it to on-the-rails stuff. I spent 50 hours just wanging around in Skyrim, and enjoyed just being an arse and doing stupid stuff on there than actually leveling and earning cash.
I do appreciate that it's difficult to have so much content while also not breaking your game, and Bethesda have done a fairly good job of keep it all bug-free. But I do hope they'll start to take their games in another direction, because it's beginning to look like the same game over and over again with different add-ons. They might as well not release the next Elder Scrolls game and just continue putting DLC out for it, because the gameplay hardly changes.
I would rely on woodcutting for a regular income if the system was better, like it should have been. There should be the viable option to make money JUST from that, or else what's the point of it even being in there? Fable 3 did it well (I imagine that's also going to get me lynched, because no one likes that game but me D:), andddd.. while I do really freaking hate mini-games in RPGs, it was done pretty well. The rewards were decent, and you could make a good living from bartending and other friendly crap that didn't involve straying too far from town.
I would like it if a town was wiped out and all those quests disappeared. It would give some imperative to wanting to go there and defend it from the dragon. I love games like that where something bad happens if I don't act upon it and help out.. but yes, like you say, that would be difficult to balance well. And probably even harder to do in RM.
As long as the rewards don't fuck them permanently, or the game dev can't be bothered to test their game more than once.
You probably don't want to kill off a super important character/side quest, unless your game is centered around that choice.
Than again, that's time you could spend creating more impactful content.
Well you could kill important people in Morrowind, and that wasn't too irritating unless you were dead set on completing the main quest. Just don't go killing people willy-nilly, or y'know.. protect important people who you want to remain alive. XD
I plan to have important people die in my game if you fail to take care of certain things, and that's gonna be a total bitch to iron out in terms of the eventing.. but that's what making gigantic sandboxes is about. It's not supposed to be easy to make, and if it is I think you're doing it wrong. Either way, it'll be a great big learning experience full of tantrums and laptop-throwing. :P
I plan to have important people die in my game if you fail to take care of certain things, and that's gonna be a total bitch to iron out in terms of the eventing.. but that's what making gigantic sandboxes is about. It's not supposed to be easy to make, and if it is I think you're doing it wrong. Either way, it'll be a great big learning experience full of tantrums and laptop-throwing. :P
author=CazRestating the obvious, but yeah - free-roam/customization is always awesome.
Well you could kill important people in Morrowind, and that wasn't too irritating unless you were dead set on completing the main quest. Just don't go killing people willy-nilly, or y'know.. protect important people who you want to remain alive. XD
I plan to have important people die in my game if you fail to take care of certain things, and that's gonna be a total bitch to iron out in terms of the eventing.. but that's what making gigantic sandboxes is about. It's not supposed to be easy to make, and if it is I think you're doing it wrong. Either way, it'll be a great big learning experience full of tantrums and laptop-throwing. :P
But once you reached the point where you can't control your own game, you fucked up.
I'm making small note sheets whenever I give the player a good amount of areas to go to. I'm also looking into a difficulty system. This way, the player doesn't need to complete every side quest to finish the main storyline.
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