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A new combat strategy (cutting off heads, making limbs useless)
It depends. I love it in Despair Labyrinth when your companion has a Cut <body part> spell that acts to circumvent a strong boss that's basically just a STR Down stat.
Fallout's VAT system also has two implementations. FO3 and FO1-2 and they have their own critics.
Hybrid Theory also had this. I forgot a fighting game that also had this in real time.
It depends just because it's so rooted in how you actually do it.
Here I'll give you a basic example in a non-RPG manner:
Both Bushido Blade and Kengo have what's called 1 hit kills. You angle a certain slash enough and the character dies.
Kengo had the better more enjoyable system with parries and body dependent bleedings but people loved Bushido Blade more. Probably because it involve different weapon.
Long term you can even look at it from a fetishist point of view. Some love the fact that the whip attacks a part differently than a sword compared to a reverse edged sword.
Some love the fact that you can simply target body parts.
Some hate the fact that every creature has human body parts.
I even go both ways. To me it's often the animation more than the type of system that sells it to me. I love how in Dragonball Z for the Genesis, Piccolo would sometimes lose his arm and regrow it sprite style. Pointless but I love it. On the other hand, I thought I would love Fallout's system but eventually it got too boring because the risks were rarely there. You might as well have Brigandine GE's/FE's system of a choice between a high powered critical atk with low % or low power atk w/ high % of hitting.
It's all in how the combat system actually is when it's part of the game and not just the features.
Fallout's VAT system also has two implementations. FO3 and FO1-2 and they have their own critics.
Hybrid Theory also had this. I forgot a fighting game that also had this in real time.
It depends just because it's so rooted in how you actually do it.
Here I'll give you a basic example in a non-RPG manner:
Both Bushido Blade and Kengo have what's called 1 hit kills. You angle a certain slash enough and the character dies.
Kengo had the better more enjoyable system with parries and body dependent bleedings but people loved Bushido Blade more. Probably because it involve different weapon.
Long term you can even look at it from a fetishist point of view. Some love the fact that the whip attacks a part differently than a sword compared to a reverse edged sword.
Some love the fact that you can simply target body parts.
Some hate the fact that every creature has human body parts.
I even go both ways. To me it's often the animation more than the type of system that sells it to me. I love how in Dragonball Z for the Genesis, Piccolo would sometimes lose his arm and regrow it sprite style. Pointless but I love it. On the other hand, I thought I would love Fallout's system but eventually it got too boring because the risks were rarely there. You might as well have Brigandine GE's/FE's system of a choice between a high powered critical atk with low % or low power atk w/ high % of hitting.
It's all in how the combat system actually is when it's part of the game and not just the features.
I Can Delve for Miles: What Draws you to Dungeon Crawls?
I love dungeon crawlers because the dungeon crawler rpgs I've played were some of the best world building games I've enjoyed.
Someone already mentioned Summon Night Swordcraft Story. If you don't know that game, you are missing one of the best basic JRPG crafting systems in the entire world. They had drills, they had skills and they had loli characters that send chills down your kills.
Let's not forget Lufia 2. Can anyone say one of the best puzzle-set based JRPGs ever?
And...oh...oh...OH! In Unlosing Ranger and Azure Dreams, you get to feel like you own your town/base. (Spore was innovative? Pft!!!) How many games can have someone laughing at you and then after you get to a certain level the npcs are in awe of you? How many games require you to waddle through a level that's full of water as a human? (I don't mean underwater, above ocean type of levels)
It's also one of those rare breed of JRPGs where you get as much fun in god mode as well as in non-god mode for different reasons. Plus many of them often have monster catching addiction similarities. You get to set traps, you get to make crafts, you get a plethora of different spells all linked to your weapon - you even sometimes get extra story scenes. Unlosing Ranger gave you a fricking gatling gun in an rpg after beating down a female pig. How many rpgs have guns where guns are not just bows? Azure dreams made fusion possible in a game where you were just expecting one monster.
Don't even get me started on the design often leading to less backtracking. Yes, you have to get to the top or the bottom of some tower BUT no more long unnecessary walking over open plains that do nothing. Towns are just there? WHOOPEE!!! That's where I need to go to find all the awesome stuff? OH YESsssss...
It's not like I love all dungeon crawlers. It's that some of the most innovative and unique games have come from that type of rpg. It's the same with SRPGs. I love rpgs more but I get excited for any SRPG that sounds like it's based on Super Robot Wars because that's where I met some of the best medieval themed stories with things like every fight having a conversation speech rather than just a boss w/ mid-battle dialogue (with voice overs even).
If a genre constantly gives you something special to look forward to, it just draws you in. It's the opposite of red flag games. You just have to look first before you reject. Once that's in your DNA, every type of game that's of the same genre gets you to look.
Other notable games:
-Before the whole rah rah about PSX games being more lifelike in FFVIII, Granstream Saga and Jade Cocoon both pre-empted tall 3d models.
-Before the whole online mmorpg craze, Diablo was delivering some nice piece of storytelling both on single player which then opened up the doorways for Diablo 2 and later World of Warcraft of course.
-Don't get me started about Monster's Den. One of the most balanced and well developed pick up and play rpgs that involved tanks, mages, healers and bowmen.
Dungeon crawlers literally have many things you look for in a game:
-That sense of arcade type excitement that is on par with Pac-man
-That innovative streak of pre-empting features of advanced games before they become popular (much like porn is often credited for many of the innovations of the world)
-That euphoria that often only comes from lvl 99 in a normal rpg transposed into lower levels
-That set of loot that makes you feel like a poacher (you rarely have to hide the fact that you're killing mooks just to grind)
-That grandfather aspect that has given value to many commonly accepted game features like lockpicks, traps, puzzles and grinding.
-It even injects life to other genres. Princess Maker (life sim) games wouldn't be the same without dungeons. Hardcore mode CRPGs wouldn't be the same without dungeons (see the expansions for Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate where dungeons give the excuse to play wild with all the special properties of the game) Fighting games wouldn't be the same without dungeons (It enabled both Tobal and Ergheiz to have an rpg mode IN A FIGHTING GAME) Shooters wouldn't be possible without dungeon crawling (Doom/Wolfenstein) Stealth games would have been less varied (Come on we all know the first stealth game was trying to get past enemies because you were low on health).
It's just something that on paper "if you don't like it, you think you won't like it" but then again and again and again...the developers just keeps releasing the awesomeness and the innovations that you...just...have...to...give...in.
Someone already mentioned Summon Night Swordcraft Story. If you don't know that game, you are missing one of the best basic JRPG crafting systems in the entire world. They had drills, they had skills and they had loli characters that send chills down your kills.
Let's not forget Lufia 2. Can anyone say one of the best puzzle-set based JRPGs ever?
And...oh...oh...OH! In Unlosing Ranger and Azure Dreams, you get to feel like you own your town/base. (Spore was innovative? Pft!!!) How many games can have someone laughing at you and then after you get to a certain level the npcs are in awe of you? How many games require you to waddle through a level that's full of water as a human? (I don't mean underwater, above ocean type of levels)
It's also one of those rare breed of JRPGs where you get as much fun in god mode as well as in non-god mode for different reasons. Plus many of them often have monster catching addiction similarities. You get to set traps, you get to make crafts, you get a plethora of different spells all linked to your weapon - you even sometimes get extra story scenes. Unlosing Ranger gave you a fricking gatling gun in an rpg after beating down a female pig. How many rpgs have guns where guns are not just bows? Azure dreams made fusion possible in a game where you were just expecting one monster.
Don't even get me started on the design often leading to less backtracking. Yes, you have to get to the top or the bottom of some tower BUT no more long unnecessary walking over open plains that do nothing. Towns are just there? WHOOPEE!!! That's where I need to go to find all the awesome stuff? OH YESsssss...
It's not like I love all dungeon crawlers. It's that some of the most innovative and unique games have come from that type of rpg. It's the same with SRPGs. I love rpgs more but I get excited for any SRPG that sounds like it's based on Super Robot Wars because that's where I met some of the best medieval themed stories with things like every fight having a conversation speech rather than just a boss w/ mid-battle dialogue (with voice overs even).
If a genre constantly gives you something special to look forward to, it just draws you in. It's the opposite of red flag games. You just have to look first before you reject. Once that's in your DNA, every type of game that's of the same genre gets you to look.
Other notable games:
-Before the whole rah rah about PSX games being more lifelike in FFVIII, Granstream Saga and Jade Cocoon both pre-empted tall 3d models.
-Before the whole online mmorpg craze, Diablo was delivering some nice piece of storytelling both on single player which then opened up the doorways for Diablo 2 and later World of Warcraft of course.
-Don't get me started about Monster's Den. One of the most balanced and well developed pick up and play rpgs that involved tanks, mages, healers and bowmen.
Dungeon crawlers literally have many things you look for in a game:
-That sense of arcade type excitement that is on par with Pac-man
-That innovative streak of pre-empting features of advanced games before they become popular (much like porn is often credited for many of the innovations of the world)
-That euphoria that often only comes from lvl 99 in a normal rpg transposed into lower levels
-That set of loot that makes you feel like a poacher (you rarely have to hide the fact that you're killing mooks just to grind)
-That grandfather aspect that has given value to many commonly accepted game features like lockpicks, traps, puzzles and grinding.
-It even injects life to other genres. Princess Maker (life sim) games wouldn't be the same without dungeons. Hardcore mode CRPGs wouldn't be the same without dungeons (see the expansions for Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate where dungeons give the excuse to play wild with all the special properties of the game) Fighting games wouldn't be the same without dungeons (It enabled both Tobal and Ergheiz to have an rpg mode IN A FIGHTING GAME) Shooters wouldn't be possible without dungeon crawling (Doom/Wolfenstein) Stealth games would have been less varied (Come on we all know the first stealth game was trying to get past enemies because you were low on health).
It's just something that on paper "if you don't like it, you think you won't like it" but then again and again and again...the developers just keeps releasing the awesomeness and the innovations that you...just...have...to...give...in.
Whole World or Not
There's also the best of both worlds. Open ended crossroads. Get a sidequest go one route. Main mission, opposite route.
The logic must be great though or else you just made players do a whole lot more backtracking. That's just me, I personally hate answers that say it depends. Sometimes it's necessary but I've seen enough rpg games where world map vs. no world map need not be a choice but a preference and often times they are preferences because it's so much more complex than just the existence of the map. It can fall completely towards Art rather than Game Design. Maps that are so uniquely placed and drawn that you feel excited just walking. Linear plots that have two branches one with a red town icon showing the main mission and other icons showing towns with sidequests. Elaborate neighboring towns and caverns where you walk past by a couple of towns on the map to create a illusion of a long journey.
The logic must be great though or else you just made players do a whole lot more backtracking. That's just me, I personally hate answers that say it depends. Sometimes it's necessary but I've seen enough rpg games where world map vs. no world map need not be a choice but a preference and often times they are preferences because it's so much more complex than just the existence of the map. It can fall completely towards Art rather than Game Design. Maps that are so uniquely placed and drawn that you feel excited just walking. Linear plots that have two branches one with a red town icon showing the main mission and other icons showing towns with sidequests. Elaborate neighboring towns and caverns where you walk past by a couple of towns on the map to create a illusion of a long journey.
A time travel system - To the past and present.
Well the first thing is to create plotholes. Everyone loves time travel inconsistencies but only if they can form many theories on their own as to why the plot hole exist and is invalid but most likely valid. That is to say, truth that might be lies and lies that might be truths.
The 2nd thing to watch out for is backtracking. Not just the length or the rate but also the route. Elegia Eternum (a NWN mod) had close to the exact premise as far as wizardry goes and it was often criticized for long backtracks because players' patience tend to be slim and fickle when moving through dimensions. They want quick and fast but they also see quick and fast as "predictable" so they want long and slow tunnels of discovery but then they hate the slimmest portal hopping. Drop someone into a wrong interval and they'd likely drop out unless they really love your game/RPG maker games.
The 3rd aspect is longing. Chrono Trigger (to me) was a bad JRPG but what captured many people's hearts was that in replacement for a direct melodrama about friends and family lost, Chrono had well designed areas that were keys to times that went and go. In each sequence characters should not be too alone but they shouldn't be allowed to have more than 5 scenes without feeling bleak even if you are making a cheery movie. Think Wall-E.
The 2nd thing to watch out for is backtracking. Not just the length or the rate but also the route. Elegia Eternum (a NWN mod) had close to the exact premise as far as wizardry goes and it was often criticized for long backtracks because players' patience tend to be slim and fickle when moving through dimensions. They want quick and fast but they also see quick and fast as "predictable" so they want long and slow tunnels of discovery but then they hate the slimmest portal hopping. Drop someone into a wrong interval and they'd likely drop out unless they really love your game/RPG maker games.
The 3rd aspect is longing. Chrono Trigger (to me) was a bad JRPG but what captured many people's hearts was that in replacement for a direct melodrama about friends and family lost, Chrono had well designed areas that were keys to times that went and go. In each sequence characters should not be too alone but they shouldn't be allowed to have more than 5 scenes without feeling bleak even if you are making a cheery movie. Think Wall-E.
Town-Dungeon-Town(The ever exhausting formula)
The trick to solving this problem is to simply remove dungeons.
Yes, making the town a dungeon works but IMO you're taking the OP too literally.
In game design, town - dungeon - town is simply a design that's less about what the terms actually mean but of this idea of battle area w/ plot - plot area w/ battle - battle area w/ plot.
Here's where other genre got it right. Most of them don't have dungeons because they understand that realistic roles don't happen in dungeons. Max Mcgee IMO was the only one who nailed a valid analogical answer but I'm not here to attack anyone so here's my own perspective of it.
I've only played Mage Duel Extreme so where Max got it right on the gladiator tournament, he sort of got it half right only because he zoomed in and turned an event into the whole point of the game. That's great but very inapplicable to general stories.
What you do then to eradicate the dungeon aspect is to "evolve" danger. For example many town that are acting as dungeons have dangerous alleys. Alleys are preferable attack spots because it's a great position point to ambush someone.
By understanding that - you can eradicate dungeon into dungeon towns already but obviously this is just a repeat of what others have said.
The idea is after you do this, you minimize dungeon towns by having something that actually replaces the dungeons.
Minimization occurs when you minimize dungeons. Tunnels for example make RTS games into single player exploration scenarios despite being dungeons because they are full of crossroads.
Upper and basement level black market rooms also serve to do this because most of the non-battle part of the dungeon is done in walking around the town.
The more you do these stuff, the more your dungeon towns simply become a town.
It's not enough though to call it something other than a dungeon town yet though. At some point we all know there's a good chance that a general story would need an XP farm location full of generic enemies that randomly pop up or walk around for no reason...and for it to happen again and again.
Here again is where you start to look at real life. Which events often have tons of enemies walking side by side in melee?
The obvious one of course is wars and battles. Create scenarios where you zoom in on the battles and where many bodies are spread around. Many great rpg maker games often have this and they are absolutely wonderful.
From here on, it's just a matter of thinking up more scenarios such as this:
-Create sidequests following these themes:
...and instead of making the mistake of turning these areas into dungeons like many games, don't! Make these maps into simple maps but with the openness to allow for chaos. Imagine you are making a world map type of open plains each time. Instead of falling into the temptation of using next screens or walls, try to use bodies for walls and next screens for introducing bosses/more dangerous enemies. Where normally you put puzzles into dungeons, put puzzles as artifacts dropped by your comrades or by your opponent.
Example: A common puzzle is a blocked door and navigating a maze to get to treasures.
Instead of a maze, have a group of soldiers lined up. Instead of a treasure box, have a flanking enemy drop the item.
Basically minimize all aspects that makes dungeons, dungeons and after you do that put all your design tricks into replacing static walls/blocks into active situations. Think of it like a sleight of hand. If you or the players don't feel you are in a dungeon, you aren't!
Of course for more story based games with less combat, this issues are moot. You can use your creativity to minimize battle sequences and make level ups less relevant. Those just can't work for general game design though.
General game design at some point needs to accomodate mass killings to justify protection, hunter type of roles, well experienced battlers...even a basic peasant protecting himself from bandits.
Of course as hubs go, it's a decent idea but I still consider it cheap design that are just slightly less cliche than dungeons only for the fact that hubs are actually just better towns and what I gather from these suggestions is that the better quality you make an area, the more it fixes stuff. Well that's a given.
What I'm proposing is slightly similar but not really related to quality and more if you can't think of breaking a trope, look towards real life where many sandbox elements like hub stem from but just as much fail to really capture.
Yes, making the town a dungeon works but IMO you're taking the OP too literally.
In game design, town - dungeon - town is simply a design that's less about what the terms actually mean but of this idea of battle area w/ plot - plot area w/ battle - battle area w/ plot.
Here's where other genre got it right. Most of them don't have dungeons because they understand that realistic roles don't happen in dungeons. Max Mcgee IMO was the only one who nailed a valid analogical answer but I'm not here to attack anyone so here's my own perspective of it.
I've only played Mage Duel Extreme so where Max got it right on the gladiator tournament, he sort of got it half right only because he zoomed in and turned an event into the whole point of the game. That's great but very inapplicable to general stories.
What you do then to eradicate the dungeon aspect is to "evolve" danger. For example many town that are acting as dungeons have dangerous alleys. Alleys are preferable attack spots because it's a great position point to ambush someone.
By understanding that - you can eradicate dungeon into dungeon towns already but obviously this is just a repeat of what others have said.
The idea is after you do this, you minimize dungeon towns by having something that actually replaces the dungeons.
Minimization occurs when you minimize dungeons. Tunnels for example make RTS games into single player exploration scenarios despite being dungeons because they are full of crossroads.
Upper and basement level black market rooms also serve to do this because most of the non-battle part of the dungeon is done in walking around the town.
The more you do these stuff, the more your dungeon towns simply become a town.
It's not enough though to call it something other than a dungeon town yet though. At some point we all know there's a good chance that a general story would need an XP farm location full of generic enemies that randomly pop up or walk around for no reason...and for it to happen again and again.
Here again is where you start to look at real life. Which events often have tons of enemies walking side by side in melee?
The obvious one of course is wars and battles. Create scenarios where you zoom in on the battles and where many bodies are spread around. Many great rpg maker games often have this and they are absolutely wonderful.
From here on, it's just a matter of thinking up more scenarios such as this:
-Create sidequests following these themes:
- Scouts
- Escorts
- Infiltration
- Espionage
...and instead of making the mistake of turning these areas into dungeons like many games, don't! Make these maps into simple maps but with the openness to allow for chaos. Imagine you are making a world map type of open plains each time. Instead of falling into the temptation of using next screens or walls, try to use bodies for walls and next screens for introducing bosses/more dangerous enemies. Where normally you put puzzles into dungeons, put puzzles as artifacts dropped by your comrades or by your opponent.
Example: A common puzzle is a blocked door and navigating a maze to get to treasures.
Instead of a maze, have a group of soldiers lined up. Instead of a treasure box, have a flanking enemy drop the item.
Basically minimize all aspects that makes dungeons, dungeons and after you do that put all your design tricks into replacing static walls/blocks into active situations. Think of it like a sleight of hand. If you or the players don't feel you are in a dungeon, you aren't!
Of course for more story based games with less combat, this issues are moot. You can use your creativity to minimize battle sequences and make level ups less relevant. Those just can't work for general game design though.
General game design at some point needs to accomodate mass killings to justify protection, hunter type of roles, well experienced battlers...even a basic peasant protecting himself from bandits.
Of course as hubs go, it's a decent idea but I still consider it cheap design that are just slightly less cliche than dungeons only for the fact that hubs are actually just better towns and what I gather from these suggestions is that the better quality you make an area, the more it fixes stuff. Well that's a given.
What I'm proposing is slightly similar but not really related to quality and more if you can't think of breaking a trope, look towards real life where many sandbox elements like hub stem from but just as much fail to really capture.
What makes a game's story memorable to you?
I have to return to it over and over again. This sounds obvious but it not only applies to good games but to bad games as well.
What made me return to Master of Monsters for the PSX despite the horrible loading times?
Multiple characters that includes introductions for each characters + the fact that the character you choose is not the PC but something that possesses the PC.
What made me play Brigandine over and over again?
It wasn't some particular game design. I certainly didn't hold higher respected SRPGs like Fire Emblem, Generation of Chaos and Final Fantasy Tactics to the same nagging of replaying them.
It was that every character was major. Monsters were not only tactical fodders. They were weaved to the narrative PLUS they were dying the more you use them. Then every opponent you had not only had a bio but they were like Scorpion and Sub-zero. Palette swaps that HAD character that seeps into the design.
What made Digimon World 2 more memorable to me than Pokemon despite it's superior design?
Digimon 2 made me feel like I wasn't trading between monsters just for their power.
In Rpg Codex they have a code word for this called storyfag. It means something about a story makes you so forgive them that certain flaws of a game is forgotten.
That "unlocks" memorability.
It's where design makes you forgive story because of gameplay.
It's where design makes you forgive gameplay because of story.
It's where design makes you forgive both because of design.
Off the top of my head some of the major ones are:
-Multiple characters that are actually multiple characters
-Side quests that are not just side quests but dialogue quests
-Random loots
-Mega Map changing designs where entire tiles of the world metamorphs like an apocalypse happening
-Multiple endings
-Character deaths that are not just character deaths but character expositions that suddenly get chopped off because of their deaths
-Sudden Plot Twist
-PC sprite changes
-Tournament of Lifes: things such as competing for gladiators, beauty pageants, politics, rulership, domain
-Puzzles that are weaved to the narrative not just mini-games transposed unto plot
-Combat systems that make you respect a bland mook or whatever opponent you most commonly see
-Level up systems with multiple combinations
See memorability comes when gameplay weaves so much to the task that you often do within the game that it starts to feel like it's story which in turn gets credited for memorable characters/narratives/etc.
The Sims for example are annoying poorly developed bots but why do they seem to have some story?
Because you can make babies (multiple characters), get married and experience the married life (tournament of life) and finally you have this level up system in the form of money that allows you to create the best house or the best hellhouse thus serving the idea of multiple combinations even though there aren't multiclasses.
What made me return to Master of Monsters for the PSX despite the horrible loading times?
Multiple characters that includes introductions for each characters + the fact that the character you choose is not the PC but something that possesses the PC.
What made me play Brigandine over and over again?
It wasn't some particular game design. I certainly didn't hold higher respected SRPGs like Fire Emblem, Generation of Chaos and Final Fantasy Tactics to the same nagging of replaying them.
It was that every character was major. Monsters were not only tactical fodders. They were weaved to the narrative PLUS they were dying the more you use them. Then every opponent you had not only had a bio but they were like Scorpion and Sub-zero. Palette swaps that HAD character that seeps into the design.
What made Digimon World 2 more memorable to me than Pokemon despite it's superior design?
Digimon 2 made me feel like I wasn't trading between monsters just for their power.
In Rpg Codex they have a code word for this called storyfag. It means something about a story makes you so forgive them that certain flaws of a game is forgotten.
That "unlocks" memorability.
It's where design makes you forgive story because of gameplay.
It's where design makes you forgive gameplay because of story.
It's where design makes you forgive both because of design.
Off the top of my head some of the major ones are:
-Multiple characters that are actually multiple characters
-Side quests that are not just side quests but dialogue quests
-Random loots
-Mega Map changing designs where entire tiles of the world metamorphs like an apocalypse happening
-Multiple endings
-Character deaths that are not just character deaths but character expositions that suddenly get chopped off because of their deaths
-Sudden Plot Twist
-PC sprite changes
-Tournament of Lifes: things such as competing for gladiators, beauty pageants, politics, rulership, domain
-Puzzles that are weaved to the narrative not just mini-games transposed unto plot
-Combat systems that make you respect a bland mook or whatever opponent you most commonly see
-Level up systems with multiple combinations
See memorability comes when gameplay weaves so much to the task that you often do within the game that it starts to feel like it's story which in turn gets credited for memorable characters/narratives/etc.
The Sims for example are annoying poorly developed bots but why do they seem to have some story?
Because you can make babies (multiple characters), get married and experience the married life (tournament of life) and finally you have this level up system in the form of money that allows you to create the best house or the best hellhouse thus serving the idea of multiple combinations even though there aren't multiclasses.
Character Introductions - Short and sweet or explanatory?
As someone else also said, "show don't tell doesn't work as well for videogames".
KISS is always good but only within it's own parameters.
Compare it to explanatory and explanatory always wins but you have to consider the "design"
Rpg maker games can't be skipped so movie type dialogues = bad.
What you want is overuse the items.
Example:
One game had it where you woke up. Your parents should be gone but instead of doing it in a text bubble, there's a telephone that says something.
Another example is the exposition of a mysterious cult where there's anime style cutscenes of the villains talking.
Instead of letting the villains talk, let the player be able to control the villain and see it through their eyes. Not only does it add to the narrative but the player can save anywhere.
Another example is notes/letters/contracts/etc.
Instead of a convoluted bubble, players are handed notes which are simple but has a plus side that they can read any time at their own pace. This is especially great for location specific save games.
If you are really ambitious, you can create a create your opening type of intro. This is what made FF7 a classic although they didn't sell this as such and worked this through the narrative.
The puzzle is that the PC knows something that the player doesn't know and the more the player unravels it, the more clarity the introduction is. In terms of RPG Maker type games, this is probably done best through a replay script that expands in detail per each narrative.
If you are really really REALLY ambitious, learn from Unlosing Ranger's intro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31F80t0MHHs
...and indeed the epic battle sequence is so huge that the same introduction polymorphs in graphics and becomes show not tell because of the graphics rather than the text bubble. We're talking about making six-eight different maps for the same sequence and making sure it looks better each time.
KISS is always good but only within it's own parameters.
Compare it to explanatory and explanatory always wins but you have to consider the "design"
Rpg maker games can't be skipped so movie type dialogues = bad.
What you want is overuse the items.
Example:
One game had it where you woke up. Your parents should be gone but instead of doing it in a text bubble, there's a telephone that says something.
Another example is the exposition of a mysterious cult where there's anime style cutscenes of the villains talking.
Instead of letting the villains talk, let the player be able to control the villain and see it through their eyes. Not only does it add to the narrative but the player can save anywhere.
Another example is notes/letters/contracts/etc.
Instead of a convoluted bubble, players are handed notes which are simple but has a plus side that they can read any time at their own pace. This is especially great for location specific save games.
If you are really ambitious, you can create a create your opening type of intro. This is what made FF7 a classic although they didn't sell this as such and worked this through the narrative.
The puzzle is that the PC knows something that the player doesn't know and the more the player unravels it, the more clarity the introduction is. In terms of RPG Maker type games, this is probably done best through a replay script that expands in detail per each narrative.
If you are really really REALLY ambitious, learn from Unlosing Ranger's intro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31F80t0MHHs
...and indeed the epic battle sequence is so huge that the same introduction polymorphs in graphics and becomes show not tell because of the graphics rather than the text bubble. We're talking about making six-eight different maps for the same sequence and making sure it looks better each time.
Non-combat skills & party members
There's also the route of lockpicking mini-games as seen in flash based games where you have to time the clicks or look for when the pick is wiggling.
In terms of immersion I much prefer crafting items that serve as locks rather than stat checks for the RPG maker type games.
The problem with JRPGs is that it's even sillier to not be able to bash doors when CRPGs can do this with a simple fireball which is a low level spell in JRPGs.
It would make much more sense to me to tie lockpicking with a magic ward system where it takes a certain high MP to produce a lock and this MP is taken from the collective efforts of party members.
The best simple implementation I've seen though are where locked doors are part of a story. Despair Labyrinth is the best one I've played that portrays this in as simple a manner. There's no special script. There are just events where some enemy is said to have opened the door or some commotion causes the other side to open the door or there's a secret door that's timed and you need to find someone in a given time to discover said path.
In terms of immersion I much prefer crafting items that serve as locks rather than stat checks for the RPG maker type games.
The problem with JRPGs is that it's even sillier to not be able to bash doors when CRPGs can do this with a simple fireball which is a low level spell in JRPGs.
It would make much more sense to me to tie lockpicking with a magic ward system where it takes a certain high MP to produce a lock and this MP is taken from the collective efforts of party members.
The best simple implementation I've seen though are where locked doors are part of a story. Despair Labyrinth is the best one I've played that portrays this in as simple a manner. There's no special script. There are just events where some enemy is said to have opened the door or some commotion causes the other side to open the door or there's a secret door that's timed and you need to find someone in a given time to discover said path.
If your game has these words in its title, it's a big red flag
I guess that doesn't come off as satire to me.
I already tried to address it by differentiating between mandatory vs. influential but just to expand, imagine if DQ wasn't so influential. Would rpg maker have even existed???
To a certain extent, that's the limitations of game engines. Supply creates demand.
But to extend that further, lack of influence by the major rpg maker titles is why makers have to constantly search and research too: no one finds it in their heart or their motivation to create a rpg maker clone that's based more in Xenogears system for example or is like a 2d hybrid of Neverwinter Nights or is like a RPG Maker ++ version where all the scripts included in the best games are pre-built.
Uniqueness IMO should never get in the way of potential for more ease so we can all focus on the meat and less on the sizzle of a game engine. It's the same with titles. People do consider Final Fantasy Tactics unique simply because the word Tactics was added. People then don't consider Final Fantasy Tactics Advance unique simply because Advance is part of GBA.
Another thing that many designers tend to fail at is mimic FFT's approach. FFT in a single game has several titles. There's the cliche FFT. There's the name of the Wars. There's the legend of Ramza. There's the retelling of his story by that guy in the beginning. There's Delita's legend intertwined like a documentary.
Red flags are still flags. It doesn't mean you can't make red flags unique.
I already tried to address it by differentiating between mandatory vs. influential but just to expand, imagine if DQ wasn't so influential. Would rpg maker have even existed???
To a certain extent, that's the limitations of game engines. Supply creates demand.
But to extend that further, lack of influence by the major rpg maker titles is why makers have to constantly search and research too: no one finds it in their heart or their motivation to create a rpg maker clone that's based more in Xenogears system for example or is like a 2d hybrid of Neverwinter Nights or is like a RPG Maker ++ version where all the scripts included in the best games are pre-built.
Uniqueness IMO should never get in the way of potential for more ease so we can all focus on the meat and less on the sizzle of a game engine. It's the same with titles. People do consider Final Fantasy Tactics unique simply because the word Tactics was added. People then don't consider Final Fantasy Tactics Advance unique simply because Advance is part of GBA.
Another thing that many designers tend to fail at is mimic FFT's approach. FFT in a single game has several titles. There's the cliche FFT. There's the name of the Wars. There's the legend of Ramza. There's the retelling of his story by that guy in the beginning. There's Delita's legend intertwined like a documentary.
Red flags are still flags. It doesn't mean you can't make red flags unique.
What would you do to increase the legacy of your game design?
Just an initial disclaimer:
-There's no "perfect design" and there's no definite method for this question. I know that and that's why I'm making this topic. The quest for the hypotheses of many (especially contradictory ones) is just as much if not more important than a thread to discovery a theory.
-Yes, many times things last because of a high budget and many modern marketing techniques work towards things of those nature and those things often have nothing to do with the actual design of the game. That doesn't mean there aren't aspects that do apply to a game. Again, this thread is about gathering hypotheses and not stating the unhelpful stock and general obvious.
-The thread is phrased this way because it rarely helps to try to answer this generically. Take things like romantic characters. How do you make people remember them more? Great emotions, great dialogues, attractive design...but that doesn't mean just because you can point out elements of the trope that you would have thought of it before something actually occurred. Everyone thought the idea of vampires was played out and then Twilight came for example. Horrible as it is, Twilight's legacy far surpasses many better stories.
To help streamline this thread, I have put forth a few categories to consider when answering:
Reviewability:
This is a term I just came up with after sporadic viewing of the Social Network from different random intervals thanks to reruns on HBO.
The movie is notable to me not so much because of the movie but because of the conversation and the content surrounding the movie.
Unlike other movies, I haven't seen any other movie that has "hated" reviews that address the content in a shallower manner than a meaningful one. Mostly about it being boring. Equally mind boggling is that the like reviews are not very caring of the actual contents of the movie and focuses too much on the themes.
The result is that you have a movie whose intellectual content does not match it's legacy. That is to say where Citizen Kane may have people talking about Rosebud or Batman may have people talking about the Joker, people will remember Social Network as simply being Social Network and that's not bad but it's flawed in that it doesn't give credence to the actual contents inserted not only by the director but the themes raised in the entire movie.
For videogames, the easiest ways to spot this is to look at fanfictions. There are simply games that people would write more fanfictions for and other mainstream games where they won't. If ratio is not a question than content diversity certainly is.
You might wonder what this has to do with reviews but if you look at many of the clues for these factor, many of them start from reviews.
There are games with 10/10 stories like Metal Gear Solid that generations from now, people would barely talk about on their own except if marketing raises it. Then there is the opposite. Games like Portal who are only notable because of a gimmick and an addictive song ending will forever be brought up in people's heads. In RPG maker games, there are even games with cheaper stories that get more comments and quality stories that are respected but barely get any comments or discussions until which games you like pops up.
Memetic possibility:
You can't quite account for viral especially if we're taking away the marketing stuff that actually has to do with the actual game content rather than the game hype but that doesn't mean there aren't designs that are more talked about.
For example, people will talk about the increase of zippers in modern Final Fantasy costumes but they will rarely talk about the character designs in Vagrant Story despite it being a superior game with a fan following.
The difference between reviewability and this is that it pre-empts releases and then seeps into releases.
If you've monitored Gamefaqs, you've all seen this. Some unknown games suddenly jump in message board rankings because lots of people are talking about it even if it's just a request for more FAQs.
Good old games:
Good old games are games that years down the line people still talk about. Many times these are mainstream games but many times they are not. These are the types of games that encourage mods even at a later date or make people make obscure fansites for a game that was supposed to be bland, predictable and limited according to the reviewers.
Database notability:
These are the games that somehow enter the hallways of abandonware sites or indygaming databases. For example there are Rpg maker games that are on reloaded.org and there are rpg games in this very site that get the hits.
This quality is two fold. First, the quality of a game to be on more databases so that years down the line someone is guaranteed to find and maybe talk about it.
The second is pure download hits. Often times these are misleading because it can involve things with sex in their names regardless of actual content but you always know after that is where the real jewels are. The latter are often the ones that people first mention when someone asks for recommendations.
Spoiler Ok!
This is when a major plot twist in a game becomes so ok to talk about that everyone doesn't even feel sorry for spoiling it to you. Again these are the games that years down the line are like Twilight or Harry Potter or Inception that just keeps being raised regardless of how crappy they really are especially in hindsight. People just treat these scenes as Holy Grails.
-There's no "perfect design" and there's no definite method for this question. I know that and that's why I'm making this topic. The quest for the hypotheses of many (especially contradictory ones) is just as much if not more important than a thread to discovery a theory.
-Yes, many times things last because of a high budget and many modern marketing techniques work towards things of those nature and those things often have nothing to do with the actual design of the game. That doesn't mean there aren't aspects that do apply to a game. Again, this thread is about gathering hypotheses and not stating the unhelpful stock and general obvious.
-The thread is phrased this way because it rarely helps to try to answer this generically. Take things like romantic characters. How do you make people remember them more? Great emotions, great dialogues, attractive design...but that doesn't mean just because you can point out elements of the trope that you would have thought of it before something actually occurred. Everyone thought the idea of vampires was played out and then Twilight came for example. Horrible as it is, Twilight's legacy far surpasses many better stories.
To help streamline this thread, I have put forth a few categories to consider when answering:
Reviewability:
This is a term I just came up with after sporadic viewing of the Social Network from different random intervals thanks to reruns on HBO.
The movie is notable to me not so much because of the movie but because of the conversation and the content surrounding the movie.
Unlike other movies, I haven't seen any other movie that has "hated" reviews that address the content in a shallower manner than a meaningful one. Mostly about it being boring. Equally mind boggling is that the like reviews are not very caring of the actual contents of the movie and focuses too much on the themes.
The result is that you have a movie whose intellectual content does not match it's legacy. That is to say where Citizen Kane may have people talking about Rosebud or Batman may have people talking about the Joker, people will remember Social Network as simply being Social Network and that's not bad but it's flawed in that it doesn't give credence to the actual contents inserted not only by the director but the themes raised in the entire movie.
For videogames, the easiest ways to spot this is to look at fanfictions. There are simply games that people would write more fanfictions for and other mainstream games where they won't. If ratio is not a question than content diversity certainly is.
You might wonder what this has to do with reviews but if you look at many of the clues for these factor, many of them start from reviews.
There are games with 10/10 stories like Metal Gear Solid that generations from now, people would barely talk about on their own except if marketing raises it. Then there is the opposite. Games like Portal who are only notable because of a gimmick and an addictive song ending will forever be brought up in people's heads. In RPG maker games, there are even games with cheaper stories that get more comments and quality stories that are respected but barely get any comments or discussions until which games you like pops up.
Memetic possibility:
You can't quite account for viral especially if we're taking away the marketing stuff that actually has to do with the actual game content rather than the game hype but that doesn't mean there aren't designs that are more talked about.
For example, people will talk about the increase of zippers in modern Final Fantasy costumes but they will rarely talk about the character designs in Vagrant Story despite it being a superior game with a fan following.
The difference between reviewability and this is that it pre-empts releases and then seeps into releases.
If you've monitored Gamefaqs, you've all seen this. Some unknown games suddenly jump in message board rankings because lots of people are talking about it even if it's just a request for more FAQs.
Good old games:
Good old games are games that years down the line people still talk about. Many times these are mainstream games but many times they are not. These are the types of games that encourage mods even at a later date or make people make obscure fansites for a game that was supposed to be bland, predictable and limited according to the reviewers.
Database notability:
These are the games that somehow enter the hallways of abandonware sites or indygaming databases. For example there are Rpg maker games that are on reloaded.org and there are rpg games in this very site that get the hits.
This quality is two fold. First, the quality of a game to be on more databases so that years down the line someone is guaranteed to find and maybe talk about it.
The second is pure download hits. Often times these are misleading because it can involve things with sex in their names regardless of actual content but you always know after that is where the real jewels are. The latter are often the ones that people first mention when someone asks for recommendations.
Spoiler Ok!
This is when a major plot twist in a game becomes so ok to talk about that everyone doesn't even feel sorry for spoiling it to you. Again these are the games that years down the line are like Twilight or Harry Potter or Inception that just keeps being raised regardless of how crappy they really are especially in hindsight. People just treat these scenes as Holy Grails.
Games - Tester
Games - Other
