KALI'S PROFILE

Search

Filter

The Religion thread

Whoa, you actually made an account just to respond to me? I'm flattered!


you should be

What annoyed me is when the churchfolk said exactly what you said: That faith took far more than half the credit for my actions.


it did

the fact that 'faith' didn't refer specifically to your faith should've been obvious right from the second line, but whether or not this was clear doesn't change anything: whether we're accusing you of faith, or accusing the world of it, the idea remains that another entity was primarily responsible for driving the change you were involved in because, and while making only the best assumptions about your character and your abilities, the reasonable probability is that your capacity to do all of the good things that you did depended very significantly on whether or not you were within, or outside the system (the church) which gave you authority, resources, and appropriate context

those things didn't end up there by circumstance and can't be underestimated. it was built, and when it was declared that 'god willed it', it was essentially appropriate and accurate to say so. if you accepted this to your realization, it would have made sense ('if god willed it then i don't want to depend on this so-called god'), but since you rejected it to your realization ('god did not will it, i did this, i am independent from this so-called god') naturally, it begs the question: really, did you do this?

i actually have no interest in guessing at your motivations and my interest in determining how much 'credit' you deserve extends only so far as it leads to the examination of where drive originates (and thereby discovering god)

@kali:
Apart from the fact that I'm a little amazed that you apparently signed up on a forum about game design specifically to reply to a post in a thread about religion, your logic hardly seems sound to me. Not only do you base your arguments on speculative assumptions about Red_Nova's character and actions.


my logic is actually very sound

You also don't seem to realise the social functions you ascribe to religion and religious communities are not exclusive to those. School can do this. Families can do this. Groups of friends, of people with similar interests or with the same political leanings can do this. Religious communities may play a significant role in this regard in our current world, but they are not inherently more effective or valuable than many other sources of (social) motivation. (Not to mention that this kind of peer pressure is not automatically a good thing in every situation.)


they are not exclusive and i didn't say so. why should i disagree. the idea is not that religion is unique in what it does, but partially in how it does, and why

Also, "nonsecular faith" is by no means constantly relevant or infallible. The "problems" it encounters - namely doubts, unwillingness, mismanagement etc. on the part of its members - are exactly the same as those in any group, be it religious, political, economical, or based on any other kind of unifying principle. The very fact that people like Red_Nova exist, people who decide against following certain doctrines or even decide to leave the community entirely, proves your point wrong.


i claim that they are infallible by design, which is to say, they have infallibility built into the premise which is the core of their organization, not that they are infallible in practice, in the real world. i'm not sure what you thought i thought--that all religions are a network of perfectly reliable cultists or machines

The Religion thread

author=Red_Nova
No. That was me that did this. I willed it. The playground, the children, the youth group, are all thriving because of my efforts.


this is only partially true. prepare to be educated

faith was a requisite for the context which allowed your assumption of leadership positions to happen. the drive to lead and to do good, on your part, may not have depended directly on faith, but it depended on the products of faith

i'm willing to wager 100 million dollars--and this is not a statement against you personally--that since leaving the church you've significantly decreased or stopped entirely your charitable activities. it's probable that you consider your severance from faith to be the logical severance from the good you've been doing within its system, but the actual logical behavior, if all you say is true ('it was my efforts which brought me so much fulfillment which they then took away'), is that you should have ramped up your community servicing, which i again wager 1000 billion million infinity dollars did not happen (and again not as a personal statement against you). this is because you provided 25% of the labor for change, but faith shouldered the rest--in ways which may not be immediately obvious to you (a reason to participate, a reason for the community which you operated within to exist, playground building materials). we're drawn to individual achievements, our own and that of others, but everyone forgets the importance of the invisible system which supports them

think about how difficult it is, in the adult world, to get anyone to agree or to get anything done at the community-or-greater level (from your personal experience, not in an abstract, internet-spectator way). doubts about leadership (why should i follow their lead?), doubts about validity (is what i'm doing right?), doubts about community/solidarity (anyone even here? i'm going home), conflicts against our own identity ('youre doing what? helping others? what a sap'), and beyond. how do you get a group of separated, slouchy, disinterested teenagers (ie: separated+slouchy+disinterested adults) to come together and organize a human effort of value? 'you need to put on this hairnet' 'that looks gay' 'look i dont like it any more than you do but we have to do it' (i dont like it any more than you do==unwillingness to impress upon youth the importance of cause and shouldering responsibility for validity/success of cause, and instead transferring this burden to god or a god-like authority)

this is why any effort for change outside of the church depends on a faith-substitute--sick children in hospitals, starving people in whatever, jews being the cause of red ring on my xbox, etc etc.--the more visceral, the more effective, and this is essentially the secular version of 'faith'. but the difference between secular faith and nonsecular faith is that nonsecular faith is a) constantly relevant and b) infallible and c) perpetuates itself indefinitely--all by design. it's completely unsurprising that churches are among the most powerful institutions on the planet and completely unsurprising why we continue to spontaneously generate variations of them: its the most natural method by which we depressurize. the sum vector of our individual lack created the phenomenon known as religion, a container for the negative space of human potential

and so this is the fundamental expression of god: an artificial sink in the game of societies which drains up psychological barriers to action, for 'good' or 'bad'

Pages: 1