OUT OF CONTROL COPS - A SERIOUS PROBLEM IN AMERICA

author=Liberty
Quite frankly, they are out of hand. Completely. There's really no argument against the kind of behaviour they've been exhibiting - I agree with Max that it is sociopathic in nature and needs to be regulated a lot more, with harsher punishments for those who don't abide by the general rules of "Don't do harm to the citizenry you have sworn to protect."

Yes, I agree they're out of hand. But was this thread made to discuss what needs to be done, or would we rather content ourselves with witch hunts and finger pointing?

For every one of your cited cases of gross misconduct, there're probably 100,000 uncelebrated cases of a job well done. Which brings us to a conundrum. What happens when in one single minute of a police officer's 60,000 working hours, he makes a mistake so grave that the newspapers are beside themselves with delight? 99 times out of a 100, the court of public opinion has already sentenced him and anything less than termination of service, denial of pension, and prison sentencing is just fodder for knee jerk mob mentality. Is that the message we want to send to the police? That after 0-30 years of active duty risking your life, one single incident whipped up into a media furor can destroy your career, impoverish your family, and put you behind bars with the very people who would most love to have you there? Is that really the answer?
It should be painfully obvious how far this strategy would backfire.

If you really want cops to stop acting like a bunch of violent goons, you'll want to end this environment of dangerous gang warfare and police underfunding. Straighten society out. Make criminal activity less appealing/necessary. In turn, policing will become a respectable profession again.
And if, after gangs, drugs, prostitution, et al, are no longer rampant but the police still can't help themselves from oppressing and terrorizing every which way, then quintuple the Internal Affairs budget and root the bad fuckers out.

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
since i don't think any child watches a movie and says 'yeah...i want to grow up and do crimes!!'

author=Max McGee
man i watched like reservoir dogs and pulp fiction and came away from them like 'yeah...i want to grow up and do crimes!!!'

Are you guys joking? You're relating your own anecdotal point of views as middle class white kids with petty bourgeoisie societal beefs as counterargument? I'm not talking about our kind. I'm talking about black kids growing up in the ghetto, looking up to their older brothers who are constantly in trouble with the law, idolizing the few successful ones, and generally developing an unhealthy "us vs tha popo" attitude.

As glamorization of this culture in media goes, if you watch Chinese* cinema of the last ~10 years, you'll probably notice a common underlying theme : The primacy of the collective over the individual (usually expressed as self-sacrifice for the government). It's a moral that should be immediately noticeable by any of us because it flies in the face of our western individualist values.
The same idea is used in the media. Black gangstas are depicted with style and grace, lots of moolah and bling, and they always got they shit togetha, yo. It's a little more subtle than Triumph of the Wills, but you can't say it's not there.

*Chinese as in mainland Chinese films. Hong Kong still expresses autonomous views when they can.

Max, I don't really know why I was arguing with you in the last thread, as we share somewhat similar opinions - so I apologize for being a pedantic douche.

I've already said I don't think ALL police are corrupt or anything, but obviously many are, just as any person with power chooses to be or not be an abuser of that power.

I don't really have anything useful to add as I agree with a lot that has been said, and besides, I don't know much about this topic so I think I'll just hang back and read about it instead.

I think that this link is all the support that the theory of a systemic problem needs.

So just to clarify, if an officer uses violence and escalates an agitated situation, great, but if he chooses a humane approach and talk a situation down, he gets fired.

author=DarklordKeinor

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
as for police officers feeling stressed, i find that hard to believe, since the amount of crime they've had to deal with has been in a steep decline for the past two decades..

Dyhalto's point did not pertain to crime level. He was discussing the level of public scrutiny police are subject to, and the large degree of financial disparity among the classes. It is through that, he says, that the police are stressed.

author=Liberty
I wonder why they're scrutinised in the public, though. Might be because they've been misusing their authority. Too bad. I've no sympathy for those who hurt others for no other reason than because they can.

basically. but also, it did certainly pertain to crime level.

On one hand, there's this huge and still growing wealth discrepancy between the rich and the poor which creates a pool of people who feel like they have to turn to crime just to make ends meet. Worse yet, criminal culture in the US leans towards a survival-of-the-strongest mentality where aggression is how you prove that you're a better crook than the others.

Are you guys joking? You're relating your own anecdotal point of views as middle class white kids with petty bourgeoisie societal beefs as counterargument? I'

actually it's my objective viewpoint as a guy who waqtches a bunch of movies. and that's what you said, media and movies, not younger siblings looking up to older siblings. i'm not even going to go further into the movie thing because it's patently ridiculous, but youths developing a 'fuck cops' mentality is a direct result of injustices inflicted by law enforcement. the class division is a real issue, but it has zero bearing on things like shooting an unarmed dude from ~150 feet away, claiming self-defense, and not facing any kind of punishment from the judicial system.

also it's nice that you assume i am a middle class white kid (??? lol) and disregard police brutality as 'petty.' is there a reason you keep imitating ebonics in your posts. it's kind of disgusting.
the rest of your post has already been dismissed by all statistics ever. there is no growing crime wave that stresses the police out, the 'environment of gang warfare' is less of an issue than it has been in 20 years and there is zero evidence to support the claim that these transgressions would lessen if you just gave the police...even more money.

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK

Eric Garner - 44. Suffocated to death by multiple NYPD officers for the crime of selling loose cigarettes. The pigs responsible were not indicted by a grand jury.

I don't agree with this. he suffocated, but it was caused by a litany of health conditions he had that were triggered by the cop who subdued him. I definitely things escalated to a physical takedown way too fast, but I can't really say the cop was at fault either. If the cop did use a chokehold (constriction of airway,) it was for about 3 seconds. He definitely shouldn't have done this, but I would say it was emphatically not the reason Garner died, either. you could have probably slapped him on the back and his heart would have exploded.

There are laws for this. If, as in your hypothetical, the cop had slapped Garner and that caused the death, he would be in the clear since slapping someone in the back is not wrong (to my knowledge). But randomly strangling someone for 3 seconds is clearly wrong, so the consequences being increased by rare and unknown medical conditions is not a defense. He ought to be held fully responsible for Garners death.

are you trying to deny that police brutality is pervasive throughout american police forces

The real world is not Gotham City.

Here, have a thing.

author=Liberty
https://38.media.tumblr.com/52293efab7c066b1db2aac1020257ef4/tumblr_ng01fkz52a1u4vvmko1_1280.jpgHere, have a thing.

I can't believe I'm dumb enough to get involved in this topic, but I want to point out: British police officers do not carry guns. As such, including Britain on that list is misleading.

The point of the image stands, but I just wanted to point that out. It bugged me. Japan does issue firearms (a smaller caliber revolver), if I'm not mistaken (I might be), so that fits. From what I've read, Japan actually has some of the lowest crime rates in the world, with white collar crime being one of the more common ones. Makes me wonder how the Japanese legal system works. If anyone has links to insightful information, send them my way?

As for the primary topic... I'm not going to comment on that.

Yes, and now we have massive civil unrest because of these cracks. Clearly dismissing these cracks as "shit happens, just deal with it" is not a functional response to the problem.

Now, let me put this on the line so you can clearly understand what the real issue is: unless everyone's willing to sit down and agree to real reform of our justice code, people are going to start throwing molotov cocktails, and start using automatic weapons against police. In fact, it's already happening. Berkeley protesters were protesting peacefully, breaking no laws, when police not only fired tear gas onto the crowd, but ruthlessly beat anybody they saw, and trampled the injured. After two days of this clearly rogue police behavior, protesters have demolished several police cruisers, local banks, and are now hurling explosives at police. And you know what? They brought it on themselves. Protesters were abiding by the laws and the police came in and immediately responded by attacking and hospitalizing, and maybe killing protesters (I don't know, medical news out of Oakland is being suppressed). The California's law enforcement offices have consistently had a gross disregard for human rights (look up California eugenics for just one example...No, they've only officially stopped. They're still experimenting on prisoners). These Gestapo tactics are inexcusable and to say that people are wrong for resisting is equally inexcusable.

If the police continue to get a free pass for their abuses, then the collapse of U. S. is going to stop just being something you see on TV. The police will come in and they won't care if you ever stuck up for them. You will just be another enemy civilian.

Edit: Yes, I think I even cited the Wikipedia at the beginning of this thread regarding Britain's gun policies.