IS THE DEFENSE STAT REDUNTANT?
Posts
Do we really need an actual defense stat in games? To me, it seems slightly redundant along side elemental resistances. There isn't much of a difference between a +defense buff and a +physical resistance buff. They both do the same task of reducing damage taken, and they both do it nearly the exact same way (flat damage reduction), so why have both?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I've never heard of a stat that increases resistance to the physical element. If you include both, then yeah, obviously that would be redundant. I don't know of any game that actually does that.
In my current project, I have gotten rid of DEF, and added in physical resistance. All skills in the game refer to an element, which includes physical. The resistance % is displayed in the status menu.
Yes, I think DEF is redundant. Mitigation itself isn't, but I think *survivability* is better represented by HP. Much like FFT, equipment that would normally give high DEF will now give high +MaxHP. Damage types can be more than adequately accounted for with elements.
Yes, I think DEF is redundant. Mitigation itself isn't, but I think *survivability* is better represented by HP. Much like FFT, equipment that would normally give high DEF will now give high +MaxHP. Damage types can be more than adequately accounted for with elements.
Games with complex relationships between statistics, like Tactics Ogre (PSP), the Star Ocean series, and the SaGa series, yeah, the Defense stat has a lot to offer in terms of potential.
author=LockeZ
I've never heard of a stat that increases resistance to the physical element. If you include both, then yeah, obviously that would be redundant. I don't know of any game that actually does that.
Virtually every Shin Megami Tensei (spinoffs included) does this. I think the reason is so they can incorporate things like halving, nullifying, repelling, or absorbing physical attacks. Granted this is not a stat that can be raised through leveling or any kind of training, but it still shows up on your character sheet.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
In SMT games (at least the ones I've played) there is more than one physical element. So physical defense is no more redundant than magic defense.
author=LockeZ
In SMT games (at least the ones I've played) there is more than one physical element. So physical defense is no more redundant than magic defense.
I know Nocturne, P4, DDS 1+2, and most of the early games only had one physical element. Then again, in some SMT games Vitality only influences HP and not Defense.
author=Antilurker
they both do it nearly the exact same way (flat damage reduction),
Actually, it's not true.
In RM* default battle systems, for example, defense stat is a flat damage reduction while resistances are % damage reductions.
I'm very pro-HP, but there are definite differences between various defense stats (oh look I'm broadening the topic).
-If maximum HP is lowered, you're diminishing the effects of healing on the target and making them have less padding; HP also defends against all damage
-If DEF is lowered, they take more damage but could still have lots of cushioning HP; unlike lowering HP, in most games lowering DEF will only lower physical resistance
Defense stats being both static and percentage-based resistances would make a lot of sense (protip: Yanfly agrees and has already made a script to allow you to do this in RPGMaker VX Ace). It can mitigate weaker enemies to dealing almost no damage to your tank, and still help out proportionally against strong enemies.
Personally, I think that it's silly to have just HP and Defense (although it's possible to do well); having both Defense and Magical Defense allows you to break things up a bit, allows for more effects, trade-offs, considerations, etc. in a well-balanced game.
-If maximum HP is lowered, you're diminishing the effects of healing on the target and making them have less padding; HP also defends against all damage
-If DEF is lowered, they take more damage but could still have lots of cushioning HP; unlike lowering HP, in most games lowering DEF will only lower physical resistance
Defense stats being both static and percentage-based resistances would make a lot of sense (protip: Yanfly agrees and has already made a script to allow you to do this in RPGMaker VX Ace). It can mitigate weaker enemies to dealing almost no damage to your tank, and still help out proportionally against strong enemies.
Personally, I think that it's silly to have just HP and Defense (although it's possible to do well); having both Defense and Magical Defense allows you to break things up a bit, allows for more effects, trade-offs, considerations, etc. in a well-balanced game.
The defense stat is as redundant as you make it! The DEF stat is to reduce damage that your HP gets, and the point of Armor in the first place I think, is to increase it! If you get rid of DEF, you might as well make your player's hp to like 10000 or something like that.
My opinion: No, it is not redundant.
My opinion: No, it is not redundant.
author=LockeZBesides SMT already mentioned, Ragnarok Online also does this with its DEF stat and item effects that have "-20% damage from Neutral element" ("Neutral" is more or less the element used by all physical attacks that don't have an inherent element). Slightly related is also Ragnarok Online's MDEF (magical defense) stat and item effects that have "-20% damage from <element>", which may or may not overlap depending on what kind of magical spell you're hit with.
I've never heard of a stat that increases resistance to the physical element. If you include both, then yeah, obviously that would be redundant. I don't know of any game that actually does that.
My opinion is that DEF/MDEF is not a redundant stat, it covers things that <element> resistance stats may not. Oftentimes, I find that DEF/MDEF is the "general" defense guarding against most kinds of attacks, but not exhibiting any particularly strong effect, while <element> resistance is "specialized" defense which may or may not be super effective depending on the situation.
An example using the OP situation of DEF vs. Physical Resistance would be this:
A. Zack hits Ralph with a normal, no-element physical attack and Ralph has both DEF and Physical Resistance, thus damage is reduced by both counts.
B. Alex hits Arshes with a fire-element physical attack. Arshes has DEF and Physical Resistance, but Alex's attack which is of the fire element overrides the physical aspect and Arshes only gets to reduce Alex's attack with his DEF stat alone. The key thing here however is that Arshes still gets to use his overarching DEF stat.
Thus my opinion is that, given proper mechanics, having both DEF/MDEF and <element> resistance is not at all redundant. In fact, it brings into play another layer of strategy and tactics on both sides of the field.
As has been pointed out, the defense stat has other effects than physical resistance. Whether or not it's redundant depends on what you want it to do. If you just want the fighter to take X% less damage than the mage, then yes, defense is redundant and you can just slap on a X% resistance on the fighter. However, there's a lot you can do with the defense stat.
What you should do it to think what you want the defense stat (and other things as well) to actually do. I get the impression that many game makers (not just amateurs, even professionals) just follow a generic formula, make sure it's somewhat balanced and call it a day.
If you find out that you don't need defense and that you can cover it with physical resistance, then that's fine. It's however not an approach I would recommend the majority to use.
What you should do it to think what you want the defense stat (and other things as well) to actually do. I get the impression that many game makers (not just amateurs, even professionals) just follow a generic formula, make sure it's somewhat balanced and call it a day.
If you find out that you don't need defense and that you can cover it with physical resistance, then that's fine. It's however not an approach I would recommend the majority to use.
I personally think it's totally cool to kill the DEF stat and just say something like "heavy armor gives you 50% phys resistance, light armor gives you +20% phys resistance/+15% evasion, and robes give you 30% magic resistance."
It's cool if doing so works in accordance to what you planned for the game. I don't approve of "just" doing so though.
Well, why not? Wouldn't it be easier to balance? Francis wears heavy armor, so you know he's going to take 40 out of the 80 points of damage the boss's Mighty Swing attack does. Equipment would simply have bonus effects.
Tier I Heavy Armor:
+8% magic resist, or
+40% stun resist, or
+10% healing taken
and so on.
Tier I Heavy Armor:
+8% magic resist, or
+40% stun resist, or
+10% healing taken
and so on.
But what about when the hero becomes a much higher level then the first dungeon mobs? Unless the level 50 hero has 100% phys resistance, wouldn't he always take damage from a level 1 slime?
Am I missing something, here?
Am I missing something, here?
Physical Resistance is resistance to Physical attacks, but what exactly is a "Physical" attack? Is it melee damage? Is it ranged damage? Is it both? Is "Physical" an element? Is "Physical" any attack done with a physical object? The questions are endless.
Meanwhile, the DEF stat reduces damage from all (usually) non-magical attacks regardless of most secondary and tertiary characteristics. The brilliance of the DEF stat lies in its inherent vagueness and its independence from specialized resistances.
Meanwhile, the DEF stat reduces damage from all (usually) non-magical attacks regardless of most secondary and tertiary characteristics. The brilliance of the DEF stat lies in its inherent vagueness and its independence from specialized resistances.



















