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IS THE DEFENSE STAT REDUNTANT?
Posts
Craze
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CloseI'd rather that things simply weren't vague.
In the Ace remake of Edifice, I'm lumping damage and defense together (note: I am not saying that this is what you should necessarily do, just that I'm doing it as an experiment and may change it later). A character with high STR is both good at dealing damage with moves that have the "this is an attack" icon, and at resisting them. The same with MAG and the "this is a spell" icon. Arcana moves have both icons.
It's completely transparent, which I highly prefer.
...that said, I also might just kill stats entirely. Haven't actually done anything battle-wise except the HP/AP/Limit Break display.
In the Ace remake of Edifice, I'm lumping damage and defense together (note: I am not saying that this is what you should necessarily do, just that I'm doing it as an experiment and may change it later). A character with high STR is both good at dealing damage with moves that have the "this is an attack" icon, and at resisting them. The same with MAG and the "this is a spell" icon. Arcana moves have both icons.
It's completely transparent, which I highly prefer.
...that said, I also might just kill stats entirely. Haven't actually done anything battle-wise except the HP/AP/Limit Break display.
Antilurker77
871
author=Link_2112
But what about when the hero becomes a much higher level then the first dungeon mobs? Unless the level 50 hero has 100% phys resistance, wouldn't he always take damage from a level 1 slime?
Am I missing something, here?
The damage would be insignificant because the player's HP is much higher.
Cozzer
0
But it wouldn't be insignificant in terms of healing items/skills he has to spend.
Personally, I think the "normal" defense stat gives a better sense of progression than percentile resistances; in standard "level 1 to level 50" games I prefer to have it.
Personally, I think the "normal" defense stat gives a better sense of progression than percentile resistances; in standard "level 1 to level 50" games I prefer to have it.
Crystalgate
694
I prefer subtractive defense, not necessarily for the sense of progression, but because that better matches what I want defense to do. With a percentile resistance, an armor that's 50% effective against a stone thrown by a child is also 50% effective against a sledgehammer swung by a giant.
It's not so much a question of realism than the fact that I prefer if defense isn't equally effective against every attack. If say a certain boss gets three turns every round, I will know that defense (or resistance) is more effective against it than against a boss that makes one massive attack every round. As has been mentioned, this makes subtractive defense slightly harder to balance than percentile resistance, but thinking about it some more, subtraction shouldn't really be a problem.
It's not so much a question of realism than the fact that I prefer if defense isn't equally effective against every attack. If say a certain boss gets three turns every round, I will know that defense (or resistance) is more effective against it than against a boss that makes one massive attack every round. As has been mentioned, this makes subtractive defense slightly harder to balance than percentile resistance, but thinking about it some more, subtraction shouldn't really be a problem.
Antilurker77
871
You have a point. And actually, the more I think about it, percent reductions could have issues with scaling. It's not good for games with a high amount of equipment tiers. It could eventually get to the point where endgame monsters deal 100k damage but the party has 99% physical resistance or some other nonsense like that.
Pokemaniac
3559
author=Antilurker77The idea Craze gave earlier in this thread(or was that the thread about equipment?) is that you have each type of equipment have a set Defence % value,(eg Light Armour reduces 20%, Heavy Armour reduces 50%) and then distinguish the tiers of armour with other effects (eg +10% poison resistance, or +5 attack).
You have a point. And actually, the more I think about it, percent reductions could have issues with scaling. It's not good for games with a high amount of equipment tiers. It could eventually get to the point where endgame monsters deal 100k damage but the party has 99% physical resistance or some other nonsense like that.
I also like the idea of set defence and percentage-based defence together, so weaker attacks eventually become completely ineffective, and bigger attacks are still noticeably effected by defence. But I think it all comes down to YOUR game, and is more of a stylistic choice.
Subtractive defense for stats, percentage reductions for abilities. That way, your defense stat mitigates steady damage, but you have to be actively engaged to mitigate spike damage.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Antilurker77
You have a point. And actually, the more I think about it, percent reductions could have issues with scaling. It's not good for games with a high amount of equipment tiers. It could eventually get to the point where endgame monsters deal 100k damage but the party has 99% physical resistance or some other nonsense like that.
You can solve this problem by also getting rid of attack power, and replacing it with elemental affinity. The party resists 180% of physical damage, but the enemy deals 240% normal physical damage (coming out to a total of 60% normal damage).
Of course, at this point, you've reached a level of abstraction at which you might as well call physical resistance "defense power" and physical affinity "attack power".
Currently messing around with a basic algorithm: A(B*atk - C*def). Attacks are shoehorned into two categories: Hard and soft attacks. Hard attacks are the "make def stat redundant" have a minimal A, high B, and low C to penetrate high defense at the cost of damage potential and accuracy. Soft attacks are high A and low and close to equal B and C with a greater damage potential than hard attacks but it depends heavily on creating a difference between attack and defense. Apply the corresponding attack to enemies based on their stats and your battle capabilities. Defend against them by raising defense for soft attacks and evasion for hard attacks (or other damage mitigation or redirection techniques but these are more general than type specific).
HP doesn't really make defense redundant. High defense is easy to maintain (buy good equipment) but only works against physical attacks, whereas HP works against all attacks but requires more healing spells and items. Then you have the option of adding attacks that breach defense or HP...
WonderPup
50
In FFXI, they use defense, vitality, and HP for the physical side of the house.
HP offers no mitigation, but a buffer. Defense, I believe, reduced the average amount of damage you took. VIT reduced the peak damage. On top of that, there was physical damage reduction gear.
For magic, you again had HP. Then, there was MDB (a hidden stat - magic defense bonus) and magic damage reduction gear. I don't believe MND (mind) affected magic defense, but it may have.
Its been a while since I played the game, so I've probably misrepresented a term or two. Also, defense as a whole was broken in the game, so take that for what it's worth. All in all, though, I think the premise is a good one for those that min/max in games. Personally, I like having control over as many stats as possible.
HP offers no mitigation, but a buffer. Defense, I believe, reduced the average amount of damage you took. VIT reduced the peak damage. On top of that, there was physical damage reduction gear.
For magic, you again had HP. Then, there was MDB (a hidden stat - magic defense bonus) and magic damage reduction gear. I don't believe MND (mind) affected magic defense, but it may have.
Its been a while since I played the game, so I've probably misrepresented a term or two. Also, defense as a whole was broken in the game, so take that for what it's worth. All in all, though, I think the premise is a good one for those that min/max in games. Personally, I like having control over as many stats as possible.
