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SUITABLE EXP VALUE CURVE? [2K3]
Posts
Xenomic
1752
Xenomic
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CloseLast question for the night...so I've been thinking of redoing my EXP values in my game, and am wondering if there isn't a good way of doing EXP at all in 2k3. Right now, my current EXP (for everyone) is 0-613-1 IIRC (something like that. Can't be bothered to open 2k3 right now to check, but it's very close to that value). Is there a good way of doing EXP traditionally, since 2k3 doesn't let you do values manually (which I will never understand why not for the sake of making level ups easier to manage but...).
TheNecromancer
3160
Whatever you're curve is set to, it's the exp given by monsters that will determine how leveling up will play out. All the curve really does is to change it from an equal amount of exp until next level, to an increasing amount of exp until next level.
Pick one of those and then balance the game by tweaking the exp values for monsters.
Pick one of those and then balance the game by tweaking the exp values for monsters.
Xenomic
1752
That's the big issue I'm having. I'm not exactly sure how to balance out the EXP between monsters and the curve at all. I know there's a few points where it's super easy to level up, but early game it's ridiculously hard to level up (mainly because I can't set like level 6 to level 7 EXP to like 300 or something and then go from there...). x_x;;
You can manually design your curve, maybe there's something to do there? (I did it, but I haven't gotten too far in my game, so I have no idea how it would turn out..).
TheNecromancer
3160
Well, looking at it simply:
It takes 200 experience for the next level.
If each monster gives 20 exp it will take 10 kills to level up.
If each monster gives 25 exp it will take 8 kills to level up.
If each monster gives 50 exp it will take 4 kills to level up.
If it's too hard to level up, increase the exp payout of the monsters or make them weaker to compensate. You could also introduce quests that give exp rewards.
It takes 200 experience for the next level.
If each monster gives 20 exp it will take 10 kills to level up.
If each monster gives 25 exp it will take 8 kills to level up.
If each monster gives 50 exp it will take 4 kills to level up.
If it's too hard to level up, increase the exp payout of the monsters or make them weaker to compensate. You could also introduce quests that give exp rewards.
Xenomic
1752
Oh wait what? I didn't know that it could be manually curved...I swear I remember it not being able to be done, since I'm pretty sure I couldn't put in my own EXP values per level up o_O
I was thinking of doing quests for EXP as sidequests later on once I get the main storyline done, but for now getting the EXP set up so that EXP scales with difficulty (and supposedly levels at that time) is what I'm trying to do. It seems the EXP per level for me therefore will go up 614 every level (or 613, something like that). And my characters start at level 6 at the start of the game, so there's...some EXP there, I don't know. I know early game it's hard to level up, but later on it's easier to level up (gaining 8-10 levels in one area isn't exactly what I had in mind...but I'm not sure how to set up the EXP curve right at all x_x;;)
I was thinking of doing quests for EXP as sidequests later on once I get the main storyline done, but for now getting the EXP set up so that EXP scales with difficulty (and supposedly levels at that time) is what I'm trying to do. It seems the EXP per level for me therefore will go up 614 every level (or 613, something like that). And my characters start at level 6 at the start of the game, so there's...some EXP there, I don't know. I know early game it's hard to level up, but later on it's easier to level up (gaining 8-10 levels in one area isn't exactly what I had in mind...but I'm not sure how to set up the EXP curve right at all x_x;;)
TheNecromancer
3160
No, you can't do anything with the curve besides using the 3 sliders.
I saw another topic recently that talks about the Goliath patch and it said something about altering the way you set exp curves. It might be worth checking out, although it changes a bunch of other stuff that might not be wanted.
I don't understand your problem. Early game is only hard to level up if you start the player off with heroes that have no skills and are up against strong monsters that give little exp. If they start out at level 6, they will still only need 614 exp to get level 7.
When you say "exp scales with difficulty" do you mean you get more exp as the game gets harder or further in? OR do you mean that as you level up the same monsters gives less exp? <--True meaning of exp scaling, as far as I know.
Are you using random encounters or touch encounters? With touch encounters you can easily use event coding to scale exp payouts. With random encounters...I'm sure some complex system can be rigged up that uses copies of the map with identical copies of the enemies that give less exp. So as you reach a certain level you only access the copy of the map that throws the lower exp monsters at you. If everything on the map is controlled by switches, the maps will look the same. That's a pretty extreme approach though, should work if you're desperate.
I saw another topic recently that talks about the Goliath patch and it said something about altering the way you set exp curves. It might be worth checking out, although it changes a bunch of other stuff that might not be wanted.
I don't understand your problem. Early game is only hard to level up if you start the player off with heroes that have no skills and are up against strong monsters that give little exp. If they start out at level 6, they will still only need 614 exp to get level 7.
When you say "exp scales with difficulty" do you mean you get more exp as the game gets harder or further in? OR do you mean that as you level up the same monsters gives less exp? <--True meaning of exp scaling, as far as I know.
Are you using random encounters or touch encounters? With touch encounters you can easily use event coding to scale exp payouts. With random encounters...I'm sure some complex system can be rigged up that uses copies of the map with identical copies of the enemies that give less exp. So as you reach a certain level you only access the copy of the map that throws the lower exp monsters at you. If everything on the map is controlled by switches, the maps will look the same. That's a pretty extreme approach though, should work if you're desperate.
Xenomic
1752
I'm using random encounters.
You get more exp as the game progresses is what I meant. I forgot about that other method (I know I've seen that one somewhere before, but it escapes me from which game...).
The issue I'm having is that I don't think I have the EXP set up correctly per area (I think in the very first dungeon you go to, the most EXP you can get is 225 or so. In a later dungeon, you can easily get 2-3k EXP, and then after that it goes back to around 500 or so EXP.
Basically, I'm trying to avoid having players to grind levels, yet at the same time, trying to avoid having players level up super easily (levels REALLY don't matter that much in this game, seeing as far as I'm concerned the only stats that matter are HP, MP, and Speed due to how awful the Attack, Magic, and Defense stats are in 2k3, and it's easy to make due with the skills given if needed). Of course, in my game players may still need to grind for money (money is hard to get too, but I made it that way deliberately), but still would like to avoid gaining so many levels at a time while doing so. I don't know if this helps clear it up some or just complicates it more so...@_@;;
You get more exp as the game progresses is what I meant. I forgot about that other method (I know I've seen that one somewhere before, but it escapes me from which game...).
The issue I'm having is that I don't think I have the EXP set up correctly per area (I think in the very first dungeon you go to, the most EXP you can get is 225 or so. In a later dungeon, you can easily get 2-3k EXP, and then after that it goes back to around 500 or so EXP.
Basically, I'm trying to avoid having players to grind levels, yet at the same time, trying to avoid having players level up super easily (levels REALLY don't matter that much in this game, seeing as far as I'm concerned the only stats that matter are HP, MP, and Speed due to how awful the Attack, Magic, and Defense stats are in 2k3, and it's easy to make due with the skills given if needed). Of course, in my game players may still need to grind for money (money is hard to get too, but I made it that way deliberately), but still would like to avoid gaining so many levels at a time while doing so. I don't know if this helps clear it up some or just complicates it more so...@_@;;
Avee
5794
I don't think this is really an issue.
You'll have a better idea about the required tweaking when you play through the game yourself. Try and see.
You'll have a better idea about the required tweaking when you play through the game yourself. Try and see.
(Link2112): "No, you can't do anything with the curve besides using the 3 sliders."
If you double click on the default curves, you can do absolutely what you want with those curves, unless I misunderstood you (?).
If you double click on the default curves, you can do absolutely what you want with those curves, unless I misunderstood you (?).
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
No matter what you do to the variables it lets you control in the sliders, level 40 will always cost exactly twice as much XP as level 20. Which means you can keep fighting level 20 monsters at level 40, removing 100% of the difficulty and still getting half as much XP. (In fact, you probably get more than half as much XP, because the battles will go much faster - you probably will gain XP far faster by fighting the level 20 monsters than by fighting the level 40 monsters, depending on your game.)
I had to design a custom experience system in my game because the RM2K3 XP curves pissed me off so much. I use a series of common events to detect when the player has been in a battle, and run an XP gain calculation, and give the player levels. If you download my game you can steal the system if you want. Send me a PM if you decide to do this and want help figuring out how it works.
I had to design a custom experience system in my game because the RM2K3 XP curves pissed me off so much. I use a series of common events to detect when the player has been in a battle, and run an XP gain calculation, and give the player levels. If you download my game you can steal the system if you want. Send me a PM if you decide to do this and want help figuring out how it works.
TheNecromancer
3160
author=chana
(Link2112): "No, you can't do anything with the curve besides using the 3 sliders."
If you double click on the default curves, you can do absolutely what you want with those curves, unless I misunderstood you (?).
Your thinking of the 6 colored curves for character stats, I think.
author=LockeZ
No matter what you do to the variables it lets you control in the sliders, level 40 will always cost exactly twice as much XP as level 20.
False.
I just increased the tertiary bar to maximum and lv 20 requires 41k exp and lvl 40 requires 94k.
Actually, I just reduced all bars to 1, and lv 20 requires 209 and lvl 40 requires 819. I can't duplicate what you're saying in any way.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I think you're reading the wrong column. That's the total XP of every level up to the current point, not the XP to get to the next level.
Then again, I don't have RM2K3 with me at work, so I could be full of shit.
Then again, I don't have RM2K3 with me at work, so I could be full of shit.
TheNecromancer
3160
author=LockeZ
I think you're reading the wrong column. That's the total XP of every level up to the current point, not the XP to get to the next level.
Then again, I don't have RM2K3 with me at work, so I could be full of shit.
I looked at both total xp and tnl xp, it doesn't jive with your statement.
Xenomic
1752
Would that custom EXP system work with random battles though? That's the big one (since 95% of my game uses random battles, the other 5% uses overworld enemies to initiate battles). If I'm forced to, I GUESS I could make the game use more overworld enemies to initiate battles if it'll make the EXP system better...
Still, 2k3's EXP curve system really isn't that great. For that reason I MADE several of the encounters pretty difficult to start with (sure, I wanted to make most of them hard when first getting there, but some can be downright brutal at times).
Ok, looking at my game now, here's an example of some of the EXP values (both from single monsters and from groups, in comparison to the characters and their levels at the time of getting to these areas).
So here's the first dungeon you're SUPPOSED to go to:
Both characters are at level 6 (all characters use Primary: 1, Secondary: 613, Tertiary: 0). From level 6 to level 7, it takes 3679 EXP to level up (which is ridiculous to begin with...).
There are 5 different enemies in the first dungeon: Eagle, Fairy, Hornet, Water Toad, and Alligator. One Eagle gives 40 EXP, one Fairy gives 90 EXP, one Hornet gives 35 EXP, one Water Toad gives 35 EXP, and one Alligator gives 200 EXP.
Now, the largest groups are 5x Eagles, 5x Hornets, 3x Fairies, and 2x Alligators. Therefore, that is 200 EXP for 5 Eagles, 175 EXP for 5 Hornets, 270 EXP for 3 Fairies, and 400 EXP for 2 Alligators. That's IF you manage to run into them and beat them. So that's roughly between...12 to 25 fights to level up once? Then from level 7 to level 8, it takes 4292 EXP to level up....yeah....
Now, looking at a later dungeon (near the end of beta2) where the party SHOULD be roughly level 14 or so, it'd take 8583 EXP to level up to level 15. The enemies in this area (this is the 2nd to last dungeon of beta2) are Wandering Spirit, Spirit Dragon, Ghost Kedama, Spirit Flame, and Greater Fairy. One Wandering Spirit gives 650 EXP, one Spirit Dragon gives 1000 EXP, one Ghost Kedama gives 680 EXP, one Spirit Flame gives 200 EXP, and one Greater Fairy gives 1550 EXP. On most occasions, you'll run into 1x Greater Fairy and 2x Wandering Spirits, or 1x Spirit Flame and 2x Ghost Kedamas. The first group gives 2850 EXP, and the second gives 2010 EXP. That doesn't take long to level up at all...I've had people level up from level 15 or so, up to level 25 (from level 24 to level 25, it takes 14713 EXP to level up.
I dunno...it just feels like the default EXP curve is harder to work with than using a normal formula like how every other RPG out there does. In fact, I WAS going to follow one of the FF games (namely FFV) in terms of the EXP system but...
Heck, to get to level 99, the player only really needs 60075 EXP. Sure, that KINDA fits in with how FFVII is, but I just don't like how early game EXP is so ridiculously high, and it's not THAT hard to just grind levels due to the default 2k3 system.
Still, 2k3's EXP curve system really isn't that great. For that reason I MADE several of the encounters pretty difficult to start with (sure, I wanted to make most of them hard when first getting there, but some can be downright brutal at times).
Ok, looking at my game now, here's an example of some of the EXP values (both from single monsters and from groups, in comparison to the characters and their levels at the time of getting to these areas).
So here's the first dungeon you're SUPPOSED to go to:
Both characters are at level 6 (all characters use Primary: 1, Secondary: 613, Tertiary: 0). From level 6 to level 7, it takes 3679 EXP to level up (which is ridiculous to begin with...).
There are 5 different enemies in the first dungeon: Eagle, Fairy, Hornet, Water Toad, and Alligator. One Eagle gives 40 EXP, one Fairy gives 90 EXP, one Hornet gives 35 EXP, one Water Toad gives 35 EXP, and one Alligator gives 200 EXP.
Now, the largest groups are 5x Eagles, 5x Hornets, 3x Fairies, and 2x Alligators. Therefore, that is 200 EXP for 5 Eagles, 175 EXP for 5 Hornets, 270 EXP for 3 Fairies, and 400 EXP for 2 Alligators. That's IF you manage to run into them and beat them. So that's roughly between...12 to 25 fights to level up once? Then from level 7 to level 8, it takes 4292 EXP to level up....yeah....
Now, looking at a later dungeon (near the end of beta2) where the party SHOULD be roughly level 14 or so, it'd take 8583 EXP to level up to level 15. The enemies in this area (this is the 2nd to last dungeon of beta2) are Wandering Spirit, Spirit Dragon, Ghost Kedama, Spirit Flame, and Greater Fairy. One Wandering Spirit gives 650 EXP, one Spirit Dragon gives 1000 EXP, one Ghost Kedama gives 680 EXP, one Spirit Flame gives 200 EXP, and one Greater Fairy gives 1550 EXP. On most occasions, you'll run into 1x Greater Fairy and 2x Wandering Spirits, or 1x Spirit Flame and 2x Ghost Kedamas. The first group gives 2850 EXP, and the second gives 2010 EXP. That doesn't take long to level up at all...I've had people level up from level 15 or so, up to level 25 (from level 24 to level 25, it takes 14713 EXP to level up.
I dunno...it just feels like the default EXP curve is harder to work with than using a normal formula like how every other RPG out there does. In fact, I WAS going to follow one of the FF games (namely FFV) in terms of the EXP system but...
Heck, to get to level 99, the player only really needs 60075 EXP. Sure, that KINDA fits in with how FFVII is, but I just don't like how early game EXP is so ridiculously high, and it's not THAT hard to just grind levels due to the default 2k3 system.
TheNecromancer
3160
Yep, there is no way to alter the curve in 2k3 to make this work.
You have to use a custom system to change the exp payout or change the monster encounters as you progress.
You have to use a custom system to change the exp payout or change the monster encounters as you progress.
I don't understand : if you can choose min/max Hp, min/maxMP, intelligence etc, and draw the curve as you wish (and you can do that in rm2k3), how is that not totally customizing the way each character develops each caracteristics as he levels up, and the way he levels up?
Xenomic
1752
I don't quite understand that post. Unless you mean why does it matter about the EXP curve if the statistics determine how the character plays out or something like that? Well again, I'd rather not make it so that players can easily grind and level up, but not have to super grind to level up either (again, they might want to just to get money, but still...ya know). Again, I think FFV had a good system for EXP (granted, it distributed EXP between living characters like earlier games but...I just mean the general EXP Per Level with that game, not the whole gaining EXP in that game).
So if you have an very slow leveling up (like 1000 exp points to level up or monsters that barely give any exp points)and only 5 HP or a very low amount of extra HP per level at the beginning, wouldn't that do it? But I've haven't followed the conversation that well and... I'm certainly not an experienced maker, so what I'm saying could be completely off!
Xenomic
1752
Well, it's not so much the stats I'm worried about, those are fine for level ups per say. It's just the leveling up itself that's the problem, because 2k3's default level up system is horrible.
