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Max McGee
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CloseThat is a very narrow view; you could say the same for every liberal arts major.
As a liberal arts major I would, though. Additionally, besides contributing nothing useful to society/the world, majoring in anything in the liberal arts has the more serious hazard of "ha ha try to get a fucking job in your 'field'".
Of course, in part that's just my post-collegiate bitterness talking.
For every president this country has had, we could've had one more game designer. That's like 44 game designers! Think of all the games we've missed out on!
lol
besides contributing nothing useful to society/the world
lol
author=Max McGeeComputer scientists are often merely programming some kind of database for a so-what endeavor, but it is also a field where new technologies or methods of information dissemination are created. Only a few people ever revolutionize anything within their field, but the more people you have invested into it, the more likely it is to get the best people producing the best work. To draw a poor analogy, American athletes aren't necessarily any better or worse than Brazilians, but their soccer teams destroy ours because their culture invests more heavily into it.
This isn't. I could imagine (really!) being a professional game designer. I can't imagine contributing anything useful to any of those other fields (and I also don't see how being a "computer scientist" is innately more beneficial to society, because you know what else we have fucking enough of? software. so I think I'd lump "computer designer" in there with artist and game designer as opposed to lumping it in with the engineers, chemists, and doctors) because I am just not competent enough. Not everyone approaches the discipline of "game design" from the same skillset/hemisphere of the brain. If I become a professional game designer, America (maybe) loses a writer, worst case scenario. It definitely isn't losing a cancer researcher or the guy who's going to develop an alternative power source. I've known that since I started really, really struggling to pass math classes in the seventh grade.
To preempt an inevitable argument, which may've been made already... I am in no way opposed to creativity. I consider creative thinking perhaps equally important to critical thinking, because most problem sets and solutions require both. It is no coincidence that cultures responsible for some of the greatest art are also responsible for some of the greatest feats in engineering.
tpasmall
228
I can agree that self gratification is way over valued, but I don't think the problem inherently lies within video game making. People who don't take in the whole scope of what makes a society function are dangerous too though.
Science and engineering alone can't make society function. I think people value high level degrees too much. Having grown up and worked in the construction industry, I can tell you that many of the high paid engineers and architects I've worked with lack practical skills and created more work then necessary.
I realize this is going off topic a bit, but my point is that 250 million people with 'high skills' doesn't necessarily translate into 250 million skilled people. And while there are too many people in the entertainment industry, someone who creates something worthwhile can actually contribute to society, even though they may not be considered 'highly skilled'.
For example: Nintendo's creation of the Wii has helped to keep elderly people in nursing homes active. While this may be attributed to the engineers who created the system, someone had to have the idea to create games that would work that way, and execute a game that would keep people interested.
(Nearly) Every field can be beneficial. There is no reason to knock people for wanting to earn a living doing something they enjoy.
(I realize I'm all over the place here but I have the flu and should be sleeping, so cut me some slack, ha.)
(I'm also really bitter about architects who get praise for designing things, when I've never worked with an architect who could design something in a way that actually worked, or have the skills needed to actually make something themselves.)
Science and engineering alone can't make society function. I think people value high level degrees too much. Having grown up and worked in the construction industry, I can tell you that many of the high paid engineers and architects I've worked with lack practical skills and created more work then necessary.
I realize this is going off topic a bit, but my point is that 250 million people with 'high skills' doesn't necessarily translate into 250 million skilled people. And while there are too many people in the entertainment industry, someone who creates something worthwhile can actually contribute to society, even though they may not be considered 'highly skilled'.
For example: Nintendo's creation of the Wii has helped to keep elderly people in nursing homes active. While this may be attributed to the engineers who created the system, someone had to have the idea to create games that would work that way, and execute a game that would keep people interested.
(Nearly) Every field can be beneficial. There is no reason to knock people for wanting to earn a living doing something they enjoy.
(I realize I'm all over the place here but I have the flu and should be sleeping, so cut me some slack, ha.)
(I'm also really bitter about architects who get praise for designing things, when I've never worked with an architect who could design something in a way that actually worked, or have the skills needed to actually make something themselves.)
Dyhalto
7536
Wow, Jude. You sent this topic spinning into a frenzy fast.
Call me a hypocrit if you like, but I totally agree with you. Western culture has a serious misallocation of young energy. Too many kids are going to post-secondary and taking dopey arts, business, philosophy, etc. I mostly blame Hollywood/Mainstream Media for it's depiction of the powerful executive versus the dirty producer (tradespeople). You get a lot of idealists who want to jump into positions of corporate power or be the next Danny Elfman (or in your example, game design positions) and nobody wants to do the stuff of modern society like Instrumentation or Millwright. Pipefitter? GTFO.
Pursuing your passion is well and good, but don't do it to such an extent that, should you not succeed, you find yourself bagging groceries. I always recommend to fellow artists that they get something which makes them useful to society. Once they have solid income coming in, then you can do what makes you happy.
Call me a hypocrit if you like, but I totally agree with you. Western culture has a serious misallocation of young energy. Too many kids are going to post-secondary and taking dopey arts, business, philosophy, etc. I mostly blame Hollywood/Mainstream Media for it's depiction of the powerful executive versus the dirty producer (tradespeople). You get a lot of idealists who want to jump into positions of corporate power or be the next Danny Elfman (or in your example, game design positions) and nobody wants to do the stuff of modern society like Instrumentation or Millwright. Pipefitter? GTFO.
Pursuing your passion is well and good, but don't do it to such an extent that, should you not succeed, you find yourself bagging groceries. I always recommend to fellow artists that they get something which makes them useful to society. Once they have solid income coming in, then you can do what makes you happy.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
To me, every American who chooses a career in video game development is an American who could've been a chemist, mechanical engineer, or computer scientist or whatever.This isn't. I could imagine (really!) being a professional game designer. I can't imagine contributing anything useful to any of those other fields (and I also don't see how being a "computer scientist" is innately more beneficial to society, because you know what else we have fucking enough of? software. so I think I'd lump "computer designer" in there with artist and game designer as opposed to lumping it in with the engineers, chemists, and doctors)
I would go so far as to say we have enough of all of these things. With six billion people on this planet there is no shortage of people doing any kind of research or development of products. So do whatever makes you happy.
I mean, fuck, everyone here spends their time making video games. If you seriously think that making video games is an awful idea, why the fuck are you here? Go spend your free time volunteering at a food shelter instead of editing RTP barrels to have the same style of coloration as rudras chips. It's great that you've found a higher calling but I like it where I am.
I would go so far as to say we have enough of all of these things.
We clearly do not have enough people researching the cure to cancer, because cancer still exists as an utterly terrifying, incurable disease.
I would go so far as to say we have enough of all of these things.
We clearly do not have enough people researching alternate energy sources, because we're still dependent on a rapidly dwindling and problematic source of fossil fuel.
I mean, fuck, everyone here spends their time making video games. If you seriously think that making video games is an awful idea, why the fuck are you here? Go spend your free time volunteering at a food shelter instead of editing RTP barrels to have the same style of coloration as rudras chips. It's great that you've found a higher calling but I like it where I am.
I do lots of things I feel at least a little bit bad about every day. I think everyone does. I don't think making video games is an awful idea, just a waste of the energy and time of someone who has the potential to do a lot more for society. (Of course, this hypothetical someone isn't you or me so it's kind of a moot point.)
I think a scenario where too little entertainment is being created is possible. I also think it's very unlikely and is definitely not the case right now.
emmych
817
We clearly do not have enough people researching the cure to cancer, because cancer still exists as an utterly terrifying, incurable disease.Quality over quantity, man.
We clearly do not have enough people researching alternate energy sources, because we're still dependent on an rapidly dwindling and problematic fossil fuel.There are also groups of people who want us to keep using that power supply because it lines their pockets with a lot of money.
I do lots of things I feel at least a little bit bad about every day. I think everyone does. I don't think making video games is an awful idea, just a waste of the energy and time of someone who has the potential to do a lot more for society.Why should someone do something if they don't feel passionate about it? I'm not about to force someone to do something just because they're good at it. Maybe I have the hands to be the most dexterous surgeon who ever lived, but it doesn't mean I'll want to crack open heads and look at brains all day.
In my experience, if someone doesn't feel passion for something, they're not going to get the most out of it or really DO anything. I mean... here. I'm sure you can think of teachers you've had that clearly loved teaching, and others that were there to put food on the table. Which teacher gave you more? Which got you more excited about learning? Which was more memorable, inspiring?
Mostly, I think everyone needs to just chill out and not rag on other people for taking another route in life. Some people don't want to be neuroscientists and would rather make toys. Big whoop. It doesn't affect what you're gonna do with your life, so just let them do what they want.
I don't think that passion is something that is created in a vacuum though, emmych. I think the way we are now is a product of our culture. If we were to value these things more, there would be more people passionate about it.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Max McGeeI wonder if I should be offended
a waste of the energy and time of someone who has the potential to do a lot more for society. (Of course, this hypothetical someone isn't you or me so it's kind of a moot point.)
...nah
Also bro we don't know what cures cancer, so everything we do is potentially cancer research. Hold on I'm about to find out if making a 32-bit sprite of an imperial soldier breakdancing is the cure to melanoma
...
...
...
okay it's not, attempting disco dancing next
emmych
817
author=JudeI both agree and disagree with that. I know I value what I value mostly because of my education and how I was raised, which is in part shaped by our society, but I've developed passions for certain subjects that kinda... emerged.
I don't think that passion is something that is created in a vacuum though, emmych. I think the way we are now is a product of our culture. If we were to value these things more, there would be more people passionate about it.
I guess an example: I wasn't born an advocate for the LGBT community, and I live in a society that (less so nowadays) treats LGBT folks as second-class citizens, mocks them in entertainment, bluh bluh bluh. And yet, here I am, all passionate about making sure LGBT folks get equal rights as everyone else. It's a passion that appeared once I started making gay friends, once I found out my sister was gay, once I realized I, myself, was queer. My parents also developed a passion for this, and they're from a generation that tried to "cure" homosexuality!
So, yes, society can shape our passions, but the individual will also find passions on their own, and it isn't our right to judge whether their passion is valuable or not.
"It's very nice to make a living off your games, but first and foremost you just want to create things that bring you and other people pleasure," he says. "I'm lucky. I had the chance to sell my own game, and it made me enough so I could release another game for free.This quote from the article is sort of how I feel about it for myself.
I've already released a few games for free. I'd not stop game making if every game I released was free. I used to want to when I was young work in Squaresoft but I realized it was a silly dream, particularly now where I am glad I don't! I don't wish to work in the professional gaming field now.
I am thinking of making Adalyn commercial, and there are some pressures I do have to deal with (make this more polished, need to extend it so I don't sell a 30 minute game for example) but I'm trying my best to keep the game still something I want to do rather than just try to appease the masses.
-Do you make games for money?I do pixel art for money. I charge for 2 reasons mainly: 1- To help pay my bills especially in times that I am job hunting and not currently working and 2- I could be working on my own projects in that time instead. But as for making games for it... I mentioned Adalyn but I did want to make Rubi remake/Azure Ocean/Azulea free. I like to experiment too and I don't want to go adding achievements and 600+ hours of gameplay just so people can buy my games. If I were well off enough I'd gladly offer every game I ever make for free.
-Given the chance, would you work on commercial games?Other than mine, I've worked on the graphics for some projects and I think 1 or 2 of them did go on to sell. But working in the videogame industry, nope. I don't want to do overtime (especially unpaid), working with too crazy deadlines, working on other peoples visions instead of my own, plus every game nowadays is 3D Marines FPS with quick time events so not much room there for pixel artists anyway. Working casually behind the shadows without people nagging you all the time is nice, even if that ends up costing me hype.
-Do you aspire to make games for money one day?I do want to make a few, but not every game I do. I'm very glad to simply have people enjoy my games or tell me how I can improve it.
Plus, I'm not sure why "OH NO, PEOPLE ARE CHARGING FOR THEIR GAME" is such a big deal anyway. I really don't see it, unless you're purposefully just selling rushed junk for $$. A quality project is something I'd gladly support financially, such as Bastion.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Some passions and beliefs you develop because they are ingrained in you by society, and others you develop as a negative reaction to society.
America first developed its great love for entertainment at least in part as a negative reaction to the puritan society that dominated our culture in the days before. The invention of the home television however is probably what allowed that counterculture movement to morph into our primary culture. Someone who could have been making movies decided to be an electrical engineer instead, and home theaters were the result.
If you think we value entertainment too much, the "good" news is that the internet is de-valuing it to the point where most entertainers can't make money any more because people just steal their works. As one invention of electrical engineering created our entertainment-driven society, so shall another destroy it.
America first developed its great love for entertainment at least in part as a negative reaction to the puritan society that dominated our culture in the days before. The invention of the home television however is probably what allowed that counterculture movement to morph into our primary culture. Someone who could have been making movies decided to be an electrical engineer instead, and home theaters were the result.
If you think we value entertainment too much, the "good" news is that the internet is de-valuing it to the point where most entertainers can't make money any more because people just steal their works. As one invention of electrical engineering created our entertainment-driven society, so shall another destroy it.
(LockeZ) : "so shall another destroy it.", apparently, and that is a good thing, it's not so sure (see PDF, my last post, in the thread : Internet Blacklisting, Save the internet).
I, personally really think Jude makes a point, but limited to a certain category of young game makers but it gets all wrong if you generalize.
I, personally really think Jude makes a point, but limited to a certain category of young game makers but it gets all wrong if you generalize.
Shinan
4314
I'm not against the idea of, if I ever made a game good enough, releasing a game commercially. It'd all depend on the game. I'm a big fan of free stuff though so if I made a game I thought was commercially viable I'd maybe make a "special edition" or similar that people could throw some money at if they thought it was worthwhile (better than a pure donation model I suppose).
However all of this is highly unlikely. But the fact is if I could get some beer money for making games I'd totally be up for it. But I don't think I'd ever quit my day job for gamemaking.
Of course in the end I'm not nearly as good a gamemaker as anyone in any indie bundle so just looking at those games would make me feel bad if I charged for my games :D
However all of this is highly unlikely. But the fact is if I could get some beer money for making games I'd totally be up for it. But I don't think I'd ever quit my day job for gamemaking.
Of course in the end I'm not nearly as good a gamemaker as anyone in any indie bundle so just looking at those games would make me feel bad if I charged for my games :D
It is not a matter of quality. Anything you give to consumers they will buy because human instinct is "Heh, I need this, I want this". It's called the Aveyond effect, which is selling rock soup.
If you create something entertaining and people enjoy it, there is no reason for you not to get a little chicken feed back to further projects to entertain people. It is not like the end game is to be "wealthy" just to pay your bills to feed your creativity.
With that being said, commercial indie games, especially RM related content are pretty much garbage all around. I have yet to see someone really take a leap in quality, more like "I made a bad game with RTP, scammed a bunch of people and got away with it"
Like, in my opinion if you're going to ask for 1 american dollar per download I think that is fine, but your game should be pretty up there in quality. It is just staggering to see the garbage that floats around for 19.99, and they get "dat change" because like I said humans want to buy, just to buy.
Too many examples of this. The problem is when someone goes commerical or just even as a hobby they're making a game with the mindset of "making a game" instead of trying to make an experience through a game.
If you create something entertaining and people enjoy it, there is no reason for you not to get a little chicken feed back to further projects to entertain people. It is not like the end game is to be "wealthy" just to pay your bills to feed your creativity.
With that being said, commercial indie games, especially RM related content are pretty much garbage all around. I have yet to see someone really take a leap in quality, more like "I made a bad game with RTP, scammed a bunch of people and got away with it"
Like, in my opinion if you're going to ask for 1 american dollar per download I think that is fine, but your game should be pretty up there in quality. It is just staggering to see the garbage that floats around for 19.99, and they get "dat change" because like I said humans want to buy, just to buy.
Too many examples of this. The problem is when someone goes commerical or just even as a hobby they're making a game with the mindset of "making a game" instead of trying to make an experience through a game.
Radnen
1806
Stop talking about Computer Science as "those database coders". A Computer Scientist may choose to become a Software Engineer where deadlines and quality are considered among other things, such as code and art. If anything a good video game needs a good Computer Scientist skilled in Software Engineering. Video games are Software, nothing more nothing less.
If you've ever used a "Design Doc" while making a video game, you have, to put it bluntly, used a Software Engineering developing paradigm. True Story.
I myself am taking Software engineering course at my University and it's helped me organize my own game (our class project is a video game).
For some of you there's a great deal of disillusionment coming from RPGMaker... you don't need to be a Computer Scientist to use the software. Generally you'd be more of a writer. But you can't be just a writer and expect games to finish on their own. No, you NEED to borrow principles from Software Engineering (even if you are doing so without realizing it. IE: Design Doc). Therefore, if you are going to profit off of games you make, it's wise to don the cap of a Computer Scientist rather than just an ordinary writer or artist.
Sorry if I feel defensive... I an a computer Scientist... Who must code his own projects from scratch!
If you've ever used a "Design Doc" while making a video game, you have, to put it bluntly, used a Software Engineering developing paradigm. True Story.
I myself am taking Software engineering course at my University and it's helped me organize my own game (our class project is a video game).
For some of you there's a great deal of disillusionment coming from RPGMaker... you don't need to be a Computer Scientist to use the software. Generally you'd be more of a writer. But you can't be just a writer and expect games to finish on their own. No, you NEED to borrow principles from Software Engineering (even if you are doing so without realizing it. IE: Design Doc). Therefore, if you are going to profit off of games you make, it's wise to don the cap of a Computer Scientist rather than just an ordinary writer or artist.
Sorry if I feel defensive... I an a computer Scientist... Who must code his own projects from scratch!
author=TFT
With that being said, commercial indie games, especially RM related content are pretty much garbage all around. I have yet to see someone really take a leap in quality, more like "I made a bad game with RTP, scammed a bunch of people and got away with it"
Commercial indie games have really hit their stride now, especially with Steam and the Humble Bundles. If you're just talking about RM games in general I agree with you 95% of the time... and then you get stuff like To the Moon, which is up for an IGF finalist award (in audio - it's an RPG Maker game and that's a huge honor). It's really quite amazing seeing the things that independent developers come out with now that there's actually a market for stranger games.
