GAMEMAKING FOR IT'S OWN SAKE/CREATIVE EXPRESSION

author=LockeZ
Well professional RPGs just means good games, to me. The two terms are synonymous. Are they not synonymous to you?

Nope.

(spoilers! Not a link to anything Final Fantasy XIII related)

Well yeah, okay, I've played some really bad professional games too. But I'm pretty sure that's not what Darken means either. I mean basically we're talking about reading about, understanding and following the professional guidelines of good game design that have been studied and discussed and agreed on by experts. From complex ideas like how to design a minimap to be most easily readable or how to design a skill learning system to be most addictive, to simple ideas like the belief that making the minimap readable and the character progression addictive are good things that make the game more fun. A lot of it is tied into studies of aesthetics, and a lot of it is also tied into studies of psychology.

Or at least that's what I assume he means, maybe he's just bitching about fangames

author=emmych
I think I've seen more interesting concepts and designs that I'd want to rip off in indie games than I have professional ones as of late!

I think you just take 99.999% of the things you learned from professional games for granted. I mean yeah okay every idea started off as a novel idea that wasn't accepted yet in the professional circle, but then people started seeing that it worked well so they copied it, and people started studying why it worked, and eventually it made its way into AAA games.

author=emmych
I guess, like... I don't buy into this concept of TRUST THE EXPERTS THEY KNOW ALL~

No, they aren't omniscient, otherwise they'd make nothing but perfect games every time. But they know more than you or me. They know a lot. That is kind of the definition of an expert, right? Plus they have enough money that when they do make bad decisions, hopefully usually they will be caught by testers and changed by designers/programmers before the game is released (if the game's budget is high enough)

Anyway this topic wasn't actually about anything, so I don't feel that guilty for derailing it.

ugh fuck me

what experts? indie game making is still pretty young and whatever substantial game making there is has been reliant on sales very early on. The ONLY THING successful people know when it comes to gams, is how to make money off of them. Even the paid artists and designers...

author=lockeZ
From complex ideas like how to design a minimap to be most easily readable or how to design a skill learning system to be most addictive, to simple ideas like the belief that making the minimap readable and the character progression addictive are good things that make the game more fun.

sounds boring dude. like some of you spend hours upon hours in these game design topics discussing this yet I don't really see an explosion of QUALITY games (in whoever's standards). Sure you could say it's a matter of execution and time and not everyone is going to get it on the first try. BUT IF THAT'S THE CASE, why not dick around? ~*Game Design*~ is really flimsy, none of you understand it, I don't understand it because this fun's pretty subjective and barely recognized by normal people.

this thinking has a lot of emotional baggage and opinions attached to it, I'll agree. I don't expect everyone to go "welp guess we're all gonna ignore big gaming companies and think outside the box! darken is my savior!" but I can't help but feel a lot of RM games lack like... HEART or w/e. You play an RM game like Three the Hard Way, it has bad mapping, questionable gameplay balance, and probably a story that's weak and cliche in a lot of places, but there's a lot of shit in there not a whole lot of big name RPGs would ever do. It's hard to explain logically (SORRY SPOCK). Almost as if a human made it and took inspirations from stuff outside video games/anime/shit. Or maybe not idk FinalDragon could be inserting stuff from his sailor moon doujins. IT AT LEAST FELT PERSONAL and its hard to describe (queue FD saying he just watched seasons of DBZ as his source of entire inspiration). Another example would be ABL i guess where the story had an actual character arc and flimsy but COOL moments that a business man would throw out and say "nah, we need to appeal to a broader audience"

I don't know where I'm going with this because a lot of people will just disagree and refute with comments like "well originality don't mean it good lol" or "HEY I LIKE MAKING DRAGON QUEST 3 LEAVE ME ALONE" my point is... is it possible that you could insert something like actually personal in your gam? like not even in just stories but gameplay mechanics and stuff. that has nothing to do with games made for profit? like more variety... not original variety just more extensive borrowing.

I tend to play a lot of old RM games in the archive (most of it was abolished by team america, god bless). Most of it is trash because they're old games made in the year 2000 by 12 years olds who didn't know any better. But some of them have that personal tone to them. And this isn't like a NOSTALGIC thing or w/e, this kind of stuff was barely present in the old days of rpg maker, and barely is today. just that the RM games with personal touches nowadays aren't even RPGs (which is sad).

That's the contradictory I'm pointing out. Amateurs making games for a mass audience where it doesn't make sense because the games are free anyway.

But yeah I'm just going to stop. I just wanted to explain myself a little better to anyone who cares. I'm not going to go into a 4 page debate (because I sorta already did that). Pleaser cal l my receptionist if you have any... c-c-c-concerns...

(In response to Max's response to Feld's post(!)) : I think I understand quite well, on the contrary : in creative activities, during the whole time you're creating your book, painting, game here, you're entirely centered on the object of creation "itself", there is no public whatsoever, and if there was, it would ruin your creation, and it really doesn't matter one bit what kind of pen you're using or paintbrush, or game maker. Once you've chosen a tool, the act of creation is unique, and the same process whatever the tool (if that's what you meant, Feld).

Edit : I really agree with you, Darken : what's the point of making amateur rpgs if you're not going to put personal creaivity in it, in fact, those that have this personal feel to them are the only ones I'm really interested in.

I tend to agree with Darken, but not completely. But after thinking about it, my conclusion is that some people don't make creative games because they're not creative people. You can't just ask them to make something new and fresh, because it's not part of their baggage. People make FF clones because that's all they know. They play DQs and FFs, and the most creative they get to be is "I want to make a game like that, but with a completely different story: the soldier will betray the king and the princess is actually a ninja bla bla bla", they make minor tweaks on common cliches (both mechanic and story-wise) and they feel like they're creating something unique and personal. Well, they are, to an extent. That's just how far as they can go.

And they'll have fun doing that, and some people will appreciate their work. So while I agree with Darken that it's a complete waste of freedom, I don't mind leaving them alone.

author=calunio
some people don't make creative games because they're not creative people. You can't just ask them to make something new and fresh, because it's not part of their baggage. People make FF clones because that's all they know.

Amen, brother. My thoughts exactly.

And I find that people see *gulp* a fangame and instantly write it off an unoriginal and not creative. Maybe if they actually played it they would see that there are lots of new ideas inside. The premise might not be the most original thing ever, but the execution could be top notch.

More to the OP, I love making games. Actually, more accurately I like starting a new project. Even more I like starting in a new engine. Following through can be a pain and leads to many dropped projects, but I like the experience.

author=calunio
I tend to agree with Darken, but not completely. But after thinking about it, my conclusion is that some people don't make creative games because they're not creative people. You can't just ask them to make something new and fresh, because it's not part of their baggage. People make FF clones because that's all they know. They play DQs and FFs, and the most creative they get to be is "I want to make a game like that, but with a completely different story: the soldier will betray the king and the princess is actually a ninja bla bla bla", they make minor tweaks on common cliches (both mechanic and story-wise) and they feel like they're creating something unique and personal. Well, they are, to an extent. That's just how far as they can go.

And they'll have fun doing that, and some people will appreciate their work. So while I agree with Darken that it's a complete waste of freedom, I don't mind leaving them alone.

I agree and don't agree. UPRC, Lex and I have all had original ideas that were no where near a FF title.

Let's just say, people who make fan games make them because they want to be a part of that one adventure. I want to do an original game, but not right now. Essence is exactly what it is, The Essence of Final Fantasy. It's an original game with an unoriginal title. But then again, I don't care what most people say about fan games because we make them because we like to make them =) I do wish people understood that, though. Instead of labeling a fan game uncreative, they should play it first.

I agree with this topic in every aspect. Essence is very personal to me, though it hasn't been 100% me because of my horrible production method. But I will be making it 100% me from now on; people should let people do their own thing instead of "WE LIVE IN 2011/12 DOOD U NEED NO RANDOM ENCOuNTERZ...." lol lol

But we should work together in story departments and such... like suggestions and constructive criticisms. Instead of "I hate your story. Your game will suck" someone should help the creator express what the story means. People tell me my story is weak, but I'm not sure why. I know exactly how the game goes and exactly how it begins and ends and know every bit of the story, but I have a hard time expressing myself through text... IE: this topic and the Dialog in Essence haha. But, I was reading some of the blogs for Essence and noticed people wanted to help. And now that I have resubmitted the game, I may take those people who want to help into effect. Stuff like that may help!!!



I agree with Lockz though. Wish the game would start and finish itself...


Sorry if I didn't make sense. It's 3:00 AM lol