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INVENTORY HOARDING
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
LockeZ
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CloseKatie Tiedrich, author of Awkward Zombie, wrote once, "I always finish RPGs with like ninety-nine of every item because what if I need it later. And then if I do need it later I save it anyway because maybe even later I will need it even more."
Then she drew this comic about Fire Emblem.
So yeah what I want to talk about is collecting ridiculously vast amounts of items. Do you do this? Do you ever use the items? Do you think it's good game design to allow or encourage this behavior? Can you think of alternative ways of handling consumable items that will result in the consumable items actually being used when needed but also being a meaningful choice?
I don't particularly like FF style inventory. I think 99 potions is way too many. The point of inventory items is to be limited, right? A resource you're supposed to try to conserve? If they were supposed to be unlimited they'd be magic spells. Being able to go into a dungeon with 99 hi-potions pretty much means near-unlimited healing, unless you're stuck in the dungeon for hours or the potions only heal 10% of your HP each.
I like Fire Emblem's rarer, more useful items. But then I end up never using them as described above. It feels good collecting all those potential abilities, but then because I can't replenish the items, I end up never using them and thus any tactical elements that would be added to combat by the items are removed.
There are other methods too. Dirge of Cerberus and Secret of Mana both let you hold only three of each item, but you can replenish your supplies in frequent shops for a smallish gold cost, and enemies sometimes drop items too. So you can easily run out, but there's absolutely no point in hoarding them. The Tales games work kind of similarly; I think they have a limit of 10 or 20 of each item (depending on the game), but increase the number of types of healing items as the game goes on to coincide with the dungeons getting longer, so you can always just barely last until the end of the dungeon if you're careful. I guess the number is higher because in Mana games you can usually avoid taking damage, and in Tales games you usually can't.
So anyway I'm not sure what my opinions actually are, thus: discussion topic
Then she drew this comic about Fire Emblem.
So yeah what I want to talk about is collecting ridiculously vast amounts of items. Do you do this? Do you ever use the items? Do you think it's good game design to allow or encourage this behavior? Can you think of alternative ways of handling consumable items that will result in the consumable items actually being used when needed but also being a meaningful choice?
I don't particularly like FF style inventory. I think 99 potions is way too many. The point of inventory items is to be limited, right? A resource you're supposed to try to conserve? If they were supposed to be unlimited they'd be magic spells. Being able to go into a dungeon with 99 hi-potions pretty much means near-unlimited healing, unless you're stuck in the dungeon for hours or the potions only heal 10% of your HP each.
I like Fire Emblem's rarer, more useful items. But then I end up never using them as described above. It feels good collecting all those potential abilities, but then because I can't replenish the items, I end up never using them and thus any tactical elements that would be added to combat by the items are removed.
There are other methods too. Dirge of Cerberus and Secret of Mana both let you hold only three of each item, but you can replenish your supplies in frequent shops for a smallish gold cost, and enemies sometimes drop items too. So you can easily run out, but there's absolutely no point in hoarding them. The Tales games work kind of similarly; I think they have a limit of 10 or 20 of each item (depending on the game), but increase the number of types of healing items as the game goes on to coincide with the dungeons getting longer, so you can always just barely last until the end of the dungeon if you're careful. I guess the number is higher because in Mana games you can usually avoid taking damage, and in Tales games you usually can't.
So anyway I'm not sure what my opinions actually are, thus: discussion topic
Byah
1097
I think the actual problem is lack of difficulty, because I'm not going to use items, if I don't even need to.
A good example is Skyrim, it has all these different kinds of consumables, but you rarely need them, and they end up filling up your inventory. Man, did I have lots of different potions in that game, and instead of using them, I hoarded them in my estate, because "what if I need them later"...I never did.
I definitely use consumables on hard encounters though, even the rare ones.
A good example is Skyrim, it has all these different kinds of consumables, but you rarely need them, and they end up filling up your inventory. Man, did I have lots of different potions in that game, and instead of using them, I hoarded them in my estate, because "what if I need them later"...I never did.
I definitely use consumables on hard encounters though, even the rare ones.
Dyhalto
7536
I've always been a fan of the 'Spacial' inventory systems like Diablo or Dungeon Master, where items take up extra squares or have a weight modifier.
A close second is the equipped-item system like in FF2j or RS3. Keep all the items you want in your inventory. But when it's time to fight a battle, you get your weapon, your shield, and two fucking pots. Good luck.
A close second is the equipped-item system like in FF2j or RS3. Keep all the items you want in your inventory. But when it's time to fight a battle, you get your weapon, your shield, and two fucking pots. Good luck.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Byah
I think the actual problem is lack of difficulty, because I'm not going to use items, if I don't even need to.
I don't think this is typically true, if we're talking about truly limited items. If you need to use items to win, then it's unbeatable for anyone who already used their items up earlier in the game. If the items can't be bought in stores then you are stuck and can't move forward in the game because you used up your rock candy, your red essence, and your megalixir in the previous dungeon and then saved. So that causes a bigger problem than it solves.
Now, for items you can easily go back to a shop and restock your supply of, yes, I agree with you, they should be needed. I feel like you should probably need exactly the number you can carry.
Zephyr
1241
When I'm playing RPGs, Final Fantasy-series for example, I'm more of an extreme collector than hoarder. I always want to keep one of each item. And if the items are rare, then you can expect me to not waste them at all. I'm sort of unwilling to spend Megalixirs, EVEN in the final battle.
Why am I reluctant to spend them even at such a moment? I cannot tell, even to myself. It must be some sort of compulsive behavior.
When it comes to game design, I'd rather set a small max quantity and make the items more effective. People should think about conserving their inventory.
Why am I reluctant to spend them even at such a moment? I cannot tell, even to myself. It must be some sort of compulsive behavior.
When it comes to game design, I'd rather set a small max quantity and make the items more effective. People should think about conserving their inventory.
author=Zephyr
When I'm playing RPGs, Final Fantasy-series for example, I'm more of an extreme collector than hoarder. I always want to keep one of each item. And if the items are rare, then you can expect me to not waste them at all. I'm sort of unwilling to spend Megalixirs, EVEN in the final battle.
Why am I reluctant to spend them even at such a moment? I cannot tell, even to myself. It must be some sort of compulsive behavior.
When it comes to game design, I'd rather set a small max quantity and make the items more effective. People should think about conserving their inventory.
Smaller max = More effective the item is over-all.
Bigger max, the less effective. I kind of like it that way.
Avee
5794
An item you find 50 times yet use 5 times throughout the game (FF's Ethers and Phoenix Downs for instance) = lazy design.
I never used any item when playing FF7, 8 and X. Why would I when Cure spells are always better and there are inns, magic supplies or full recovery spheres everywhere?
When I was younger I used to hoard items, but now I usually sell all my Ethers, Phoenix Downs and other status recovery items and spend the cash on equipment.
I like how the later metroidvanias handle the inventory. You have a maximum of 9 of a same item and potions are rare finds. Since there are several full recovery save points here and there you save items for the boss fights wherein you definitely need them. It gives significance to these items and shows clever guidance of players' inventory management.
It's also more interesting to feel vulnerable by having a limited inventory than to feel secure "Hey no problem, I've got tons of potions."
I never used any item when playing FF7, 8 and X. Why would I when Cure spells are always better and there are inns, magic supplies or full recovery spheres everywhere?
When I was younger I used to hoard items, but now I usually sell all my Ethers, Phoenix Downs and other status recovery items and spend the cash on equipment.
I like how the later metroidvanias handle the inventory. You have a maximum of 9 of a same item and potions are rare finds. Since there are several full recovery save points here and there you save items for the boss fights wherein you definitely need them. It gives significance to these items and shows clever guidance of players' inventory management.
It's also more interesting to feel vulnerable by having a limited inventory than to feel secure "Hey no problem, I've got tons of potions."
author=Byah
I think the actual problem is lack of difficulty, because I'm not going to use items, if I don't even need to.
And yet, when a game is hard, people complain instead of using the many, many items they are given. >.<;
DON'T DO THIS!
This is one of the worst things as a game designer. You make the items actually usable, hand enough out that they can be used without running out and people go out of their way not to use them, end up dying and complain that the balancing is out of whack and it's too hard. Seriously? I give you about 20 Red Potions and a handful of Bomberines and you don't use them in battle to gain easy levels to learn a skill that allows you to kill the harder enemies with? You're gonna get fucked, obviously.
Items are created for use, not just to sit in your inventory and look pretty. And yes, I used to be one of those people who didn't want to use items because I might need them later, but I've since learned that if you need a Mega Elixir now, you need it NOW, not twenty hours down the track.
Granted, I won't use something rare if I have/can use something that's not - High Potion vs Elixir, for example - but if the High Potion ain't cutting it, an Elixir will do. This brings another thought to mind: skills.
If MP restores are easy to find, there are a lot of healing points, healing items are scarce or it doesn't cost too much/is multi-character I am more likely to use a healing spell out of battle than a potion of some sort. Why? Because MP is an easily restored resource that doesn't cost much to recover and most of the time works much better than items.
That's a problem with items most of the time. By the mid to end of the game you'll be using multi-target healing spells that heal more for less than the one-target items. Mostly in battle, but out of battle too, if it's cost efficient enough. (Personally, sometimes I like to pop a regen state spell and guard through an easy battle.) And even better if you regain HP and MP apon guarding. That's a real easy way to heal (as long as it's a decent amount) at the start of a game.
But yeah, items. Fucking use them!
Cozzer
0
One of the problems is that, hey, why use potions or grenades when you have healing and attack magic?
In the late game, in most FF-style games, the only useful items end up being Ethers (and some Phoenix Downs for good measure, if your healer dies). And maybe the occasional Megaelixir if things are looking really bad.
For everything else, you have skills/magic, which you can use pretty much whenever you want if you have enough Ethers.
Another problem is that items don't scale: your Cure spell will heal more HP when your characters become better mages, while the potions you hoarded will become useless.
I don't really like having limits for items; my characters can carry 30 different swords but the weight of the tenth potion will break their spine? Are they suicidal, or something?
If you want the player to have less items, just make him find less items (and make them cost more).
The best idea that I can come up right now would be to have only items with effect that cannot be easily replicated by skills.
Maybe there's no healing magic, and you have to use those potions; maybe there's no fire magic, and you have to use those grenades; maybe there's no buff magic, and you have to use drugs or something.
In the late game, in most FF-style games, the only useful items end up being Ethers (and some Phoenix Downs for good measure, if your healer dies). And maybe the occasional Megaelixir if things are looking really bad.
For everything else, you have skills/magic, which you can use pretty much whenever you want if you have enough Ethers.
Another problem is that items don't scale: your Cure spell will heal more HP when your characters become better mages, while the potions you hoarded will become useless.
I don't really like having limits for items; my characters can carry 30 different swords but the weight of the tenth potion will break their spine? Are they suicidal, or something?
If you want the player to have less items, just make him find less items (and make them cost more).
The best idea that I can come up right now would be to have only items with effect that cannot be easily replicated by skills.
Maybe there's no healing magic, and you have to use those potions; maybe there's no fire magic, and you have to use those grenades; maybe there's no buff magic, and you have to use drugs or something.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Liberty
That's a problem with items most of the time. By the mid to end of the game you'll be using multi-target healing spells that heal more for less than the one-target items. Mostly in battle, but out of battle too, if it's cost efficient enough.
In your typical Final Fantasy game, ethers would have to cost something like 150x as much as potions for potions to be a cost-efficient method of healing. Kinda ridiculous.
I'm trying to think of games where healing items were done in a way that made me both use them and also care about them. I mentioned Secret of Mana already. Dragon Age 2 also comes to mind. You have 1 to 2 mages on your team who can cast a cure spell, but that cure spell has a 60 second cooldown. Then you have healing potions, which have a 30 second cooldown. Then you have enemies who are dealing damage upwards of 10% of your HP per second if you're not careful! You can buy as many potions as you want, but they are expensive. If you use nothing but potions to heal, you will spend your money far faster than you earn it. But if you never use potions to heal, you will definitely not live.
In my game (I usually dislike saying 'but in my game, but I'll break my own rule for this one), I took a cue from Wild Arms 3 and made items valuable, but limited; curative items cannot be bought. They can only be found, won, and crafted, which is in a way, infinite, but trying to do so is like 'come on now dawg'. How does making items finite make them more valuable?
-Items can reliably heal for large amounts of damage
-Items can be used by anyone. Curative magic is relatively rare.
-Magic can run out. Also, you're not fucked if your healer/magic user goes
-Dungeon crawling is a game of attrition, but battles are life and death.
-Items can reliably heal for large amounts of damage
-Items can be used by anyone. Curative magic is relatively rare.
-Magic can run out. Also, you're not fucked if your healer/magic user goes
-Dungeon crawling is a game of attrition, but battles are life and death.
I haven't tried it before, but I've considered making items reusable rather than consumable. Used items could be refunded at the end of combat. Finding another Potion increases the number of times Potions can be used in a single encounter.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I think we call those
spells
spells
author=LockeZ
I think we call those
spells
No. Functionally it is different than a mana pool. A mana pool is reset at an inn.
Players aren't shy about using items if the consequences of death/failure are high enough. Upping the consequences of death/failure spurs players to use whatever items they have to to ensure they survive the life & death struggle of the present, rather than saving up for a life & death struggle of the hypothetical future. Permanent death is the most extreme method, but there are others.
Low maximum capacity. Then constant supply and need. You're damn well gonna be using those potions if you can only hold 6 of them, and you're getting lit up, and there's another potion in the next room.
Btw, that comic is legendary.
emmych
817
I'm a capitalist slug so I like having stuff
I fill my inventory full of things and keep them forever
forever
I fill my inventory full of things and keep them forever
forever
Irili
3198
Gotta catch 'em all! I want at least one of every item in my inventory by the end of the game.
Xenomic
1752
Ah...I always went for as many items as I could (in fact, I actually did get max of everything in FFVII before, and close to it in VIII and V). But if I DO need to use it, I use it. I always have 99 Potions for the most part, just in case I NEED something to heal with at any given time. Like say, I want to save my MP for later or something (or I spend all my MP grinding on dudes and don't have any Ethers. Take the Subway to Reactor 5 in FFVII for instance...I do that a lot even though I don't need to).
Hell, I even get max amounts of equipment in VII and V, just because (plus something to throw for Ninjas, even if I don't use them). Otherwise, I tend to want at least one of each equipment. I'm not HURT if I don't get everything (unless it's unique and you can't get it...and they so happen to stick it in an area that you'll never know about unless you look it up in a guide...), but it just feels nice to have all of those items in the event that I need them is all.
Of course, can't say this about MY game per say...I actually thought about doing it like FFI/II did (with their limited inventory) but decided against it. Being able to have 99 of something isn't a BAD thing...if you don't use it, well...that's your problem then (or playstyle). That's what I think anyways.
Hell, I even get max amounts of equipment in VII and V, just because (plus something to throw for Ninjas, even if I don't use them). Otherwise, I tend to want at least one of each equipment. I'm not HURT if I don't get everything (unless it's unique and you can't get it...and they so happen to stick it in an area that you'll never know about unless you look it up in a guide...), but it just feels nice to have all of those items in the event that I need them is all.
Of course, can't say this about MY game per say...I actually thought about doing it like FFI/II did (with their limited inventory) but decided against it. Being able to have 99 of something isn't a BAD thing...if you don't use it, well...that's your problem then (or playstyle). That's what I think anyways.
