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Gourd_Clae
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Closeauthor=emmychMany times.
Also we need more queer representation, but I have ranted about this before.
Also, I was thinking that I would include something along those linesin one story of mine and thought twice about it. Maybe I should include it?
I have "fairy tale" love in one of my games' stories I'm working on, but that's mainly because the main character is like 10 and the girl he has a crush on is 14, and when I throw sex in there all I can think is "Eww Pedophilia..."
Emmy, your posts are always interesting.
emmych
817
author=Gourd_ClaeThat's where the puppy love makes sense, I think; when it's between children/young teenagers. I just dislike when there's the whole "WE R 15 AND WE R NOW GOING 2 B 2GETHER 5EVAR U R MY SOULMATE" thing. If it's puppy love, play it like puppy love. If it's real romance, play it like real romance.author=emmychMany times.
Also we need more queer representation, but I have ranted about this before.
Also, I was thinking that I would include something along those linesin one story of mine and thought twice about it. Maybe I should include it?
I have "fairy tale" love in one of my games' stories I'm working on, but that's mainly because the main character is like 10 and the girl he has a crush on is 14, and when I throw sex in there all I can think is "Eww Pedophilia..."
Emmy, your posts are always interesting.
And d'awww, thanks, man. I'm glad you think so. ;w;
can we just show a relationship that has been pre-existing instead of HEALER AND WARRIOR FALL IN LOVE k thanx
i haven't actually read this topic but I'm pretty sure anything emmych says i will agree with 100% so <insert emmych here>
1) better sweaters
2) better understanding of the partner's genitalia
3) can share clothes with a smaller chance of looking stupid
4) can freak out when shared clothes get screwed up because i fucking got that on sale at ralph lauren for $30 you asshole, c'mere, i'll show you some asshole yeah, yeah, take that unh
i haven't actually read this topic but I'm pretty sure anything emmych says i will agree with 100% so <insert emmych here>
emmych
RPGs need more of teh gay because queer relationships have different dynamics than heterosexual ones and it would be nice to see something different go on. Also we need more queer representation, but I have ranted about this before.
1) better sweaters
2) better understanding of the partner's genitalia
3) can share clothes with a smaller chance of looking stupid
4) can freak out when shared clothes get screwed up because i fucking got that on sale at ralph lauren for $30 you asshole, c'mere, i'll show you some asshole yeah, yeah, take that unh
time to corner a niche by pretending i know anything about a gay relationship and making a game around it
i'm sure no one will be able to tell
Love is overdone. It's a relationship most people have either experienced or desired at one point, so it's easy pickins for a designer, but there are so many relationships that never get explored. Father-Son? Yea, that one happens a lot too. But two brothers? Two sisters? Mother-Son?
Full Metal Alchemist had a lot of pros and cons, but damn I love how they tried to tackle the two brothers trying to survive on their own. Plus they get credit for being a famous show with very, very little 'shipping.
If you are gonna tackle a boy-girl relationship, try your best not to make it cliche. Not everything has to happen with heaping amounts of teenage angst.
i'm sure no one will be able to tell
Love is overdone. It's a relationship most people have either experienced or desired at one point, so it's easy pickins for a designer, but there are so many relationships that never get explored. Father-Son? Yea, that one happens a lot too. But two brothers? Two sisters? Mother-Son?
Full Metal Alchemist had a lot of pros and cons, but damn I love how they tried to tackle the two brothers trying to survive on their own. Plus they get credit for being a famous show with very, very little 'shipping.
If you are gonna tackle a boy-girl relationship, try your best not to make it cliche. Not everything has to happen with heaping amounts of teenage angst.
emmych
817
@Craze: that list made me spit out all of my drink all over me and now I am covered in sticky liquid.
THANKS A LOT, BAKA~~~~~~!!!
hahahahahahaha you've never been to deviantart, have you
or fanfiction.net
or the internet IB
there is such ridiculous shipping in that fandom, man, and the show/manga itself can get a little shippy once and a while. OTL
THANKS A LOT, BAKA~~~~~~!!!
author=slashphoenix
Full Metal Alchemist had a lot of pros and cons, but damn I love how they tried to tackle the two brothers trying to survive on their own. Plus they get credit for being a famous show with very, very little 'shipping.
hahahahahahaha you've never been to deviantart, have you
or fanfiction.net
or the internet IB
there is such ridiculous shipping in that fandom, man, and the show/manga itself can get a little shippy once and a while. OTL
Hahaha, of course, but people will ship over inanimate objects if they have to. It's just surprising for such a popular show to get by with so little, when the same channel shows 80 episodes of Inuyasha and Kagome blushing when they look at each other.
"No, no, I refuse to like you! Even though I like you so much!"
I used to love those kinds of stories too. It's like guilty pleasure :P
"No, no, I refuse to like you! Even though I like you so much!"
I used to love those kinds of stories too. It's like guilty pleasure :P
author=DyhaltoWhen there's an anime, game, comic, manga or any shit like that, some of their fans usually just pair the characters together when they have nothing else to do in their life. That is called shipping.
What is "shipping"? o.o
For example: HOMESTUCK KARKAT X SOLLUX UGUU KAWAII 030 ^^ BRO X HUSSIE NYAAA SPACE FURRY PORN RAINBOW SHIT X PINKIE DOUCHE ONICHAAAAN
Well, I think if characters want to have sex, they should have sex, but it should be for a believable reason.
Like, at least foreshadow the physical attraction, or if it happens out of the blue, have them worried about it.
Sex like in God of War where Kratos was just a sex machine I find very tasteless.
As for love, I also think that being the hero should not automatically guarantee that dozens of love stricken maidens are gonna throw themselves at the protagonist's feet.
Sometimes people do a lot for others in an attempt to show them love but get rejected anyway. Exploring that seems interesting to me.
Like, at least foreshadow the physical attraction, or if it happens out of the blue, have them worried about it.
Sex like in God of War where Kratos was just a sex machine I find very tasteless.
As for love, I also think that being the hero should not automatically guarantee that dozens of love stricken maidens are gonna throw themselves at the protagonist's feet.
Sometimes people do a lot for others in an attempt to show them love but get rejected anyway. Exploring that seems interesting to me.
emmych
817
@Nightowl: Nah, shipping refers to support for any pairing, canon or no. For instance, you could ship the canon pairing of Harry and Ginny, or the non-canon pairing of Harry and Dobby.
Either way, if it exists, someone will probably ship it. (I once saw a Golden Sun fanfic shipping Isaac X the thatched roof of his house. No, I'm not kidding. I could find it for you if I you wanted me to. IB)
@rabitZ: Auggghhh yes unrequited love. </3 Done wrong, this is the whiniest, stupidest most eyerolling and embarrassing thing to witness (and holy FUCK I have seen it done wrong), but done right is ridiculously moving and wonderful. Like... you get all these feels and are like "I know that feel bro ;__;" and it's just so HNGH. <3
To do that right, you defs gotta make every character involved in the sad love situation good and believable. Too often, you see the love interest end up villified or looking vapid and selfish, and maaaan that just ain't how it goes most of the time. OTL Sometimes one half just wants some lovin' and the other only has friendly feelings and auuugh it is terrible and awful for both sides (I'd say almost worse for the one being pursued...? I've been on both sides, and, personally, I'd waaaay rather have my heart broken by someone else than be in that position of power over someone again. It's scary. OTL).
Either way, if it exists, someone will probably ship it. (I once saw a Golden Sun fanfic shipping Isaac X the thatched roof of his house. No, I'm not kidding. I could find it for you if I you wanted me to. IB)
@rabitZ: Auggghhh yes unrequited love. </3 Done wrong, this is the whiniest, stupidest most eyerolling and embarrassing thing to witness (and holy FUCK I have seen it done wrong), but done right is ridiculously moving and wonderful. Like... you get all these feels and are like "I know that feel bro ;__;" and it's just so HNGH. <3
To do that right, you defs gotta make every character involved in the sad love situation good and believable. Too often, you see the love interest end up villified or looking vapid and selfish, and maaaan that just ain't how it goes most of the time. OTL Sometimes one half just wants some lovin' and the other only has friendly feelings and auuugh it is terrible and awful for both sides (I'd say almost worse for the one being pursued...? I've been on both sides, and, personally, I'd waaaay rather have my heart broken by someone else than be in that position of power over someone again. It's scary. OTL).
I'm actually pretty surprised, but not put off, by the openness in this topic. Yeah, Emmych, despite being surprised by the content and candidness of some of your posts, they offer an interesting insight and perspective.
As for me, I generally tend to stay away from romance in my games. I've used it on occasion - I just don't feel like romance writing is a strength of mine. I'm like George Lucas in that regard ;)
As for me, I generally tend to stay away from romance in my games. I've used it on occasion - I just don't feel like romance writing is a strength of mine. I'm like George Lucas in that regard ;)
I'm all about relationships, but that said... my stories (not that I ever release anything) border on noir and the sense that "nobody's good, they're all doing this for their own gain." They're usually not pretty, and almost always pre-existing when the story begins.
My favorite relationships are in Diablocide - specifically the triad of Kristoph/Princess, Darren/Felix, and Eon/Nynavae. (For anybody that's actually played it, I've axed Collin and Never-age is now Nynavae.)
(This is in hide tags because it's long and extremely spoileriffic, both for Diablocide and for the rest of the Edifice games. I mean... not that I'm ever going to finish anything.)
I really, really like the concept of love in video games, since they're longer than a movie and thus have the chance to provide a long-lasting visual representation of the relationship as compared to even the most illustrative of novels. I think it's often done terribly in games, however, which is why I like to smash it into a billion pieces ~ !
My favorite relationships are in Diablocide - specifically the triad of Kristoph/Princess, Darren/Felix, and Eon/Nynavae. (For anybody that's actually played it, I've axed Collin and Never-age is now Nynavae.)
(This is in hide tags because it's long and extremely spoileriffic, both for Diablocide and for the rest of the Edifice games. I mean... not that I'm ever going to finish anything.)
Kristoph and Garrius (previously Goldurn), a commander of the Mercadian Templar Order and a general from the Dawning Stretch/an ambassador from Mercedes to the Dawning Stretch, assassinate Emperor Perseus Mercedes shortly before the game begins, which leads to "Princess" (the... princess, Persephone) undergoing extreme psychological trauma and becoming an amnesiac. Kristoph, in an attempt to atone for his sins, protects her on their climb up the Demon Tower/Edifice, and eventually they become an item. It's pretty much the sickest relationship I've ever crafted. Thing is, when Princess is killed near the end of the game and comes back as Empress Persephone, she keeps Kristoph on despite regaining her memory. The transition is only thinly veiling the idea that it's her growing from a girl into a woman - she has a strong sense of what it means to be a leader and making sacrifices. Kristoph has proved himself to be both diplomatically aware as well as protective of her. They go on to be Emperor and Empress, and are actually in love, even if it's not gushy "true" love now that she's grown-up.
Felix (again, previously Collin; he's an immigrant to Cydrel (the country north of Mercedes) and takes on Collin's casino-owning role) ran a gladiator ring, eventually falling in love with one of the gladiators. After they were together for a short time, Felix convinced Darren and his brother Sirius to fight the craziest foe he had ever managed to get into the ring... the spawn of a true Demon. Things didn't go so well, and both brothers became demonized, absorbing the spawn into their souls. Sirius took the brunt of it and is now under the constant effects of blood magic/Arcana to stabilize his humanity (yes, it is fantasy cancer), while Darren/Felix climb the Edifice to try to help Darren conquer the spawn within him. They are madly, passionately in love, and Felix is repentant like Kristoph - but the difference is that he's honestly trying to help Darren. That's his sole reason for climbing, unlike Kristoph who is trying to cover up his sins. Their relationship is much healthier, and where Kristoph constantly doubts himself, Felix and Darren never question themselves or each other. They might be a bit too perfect, but whatever. IT'S SYMBOLIC or something.
Nynavae is an automaton crafted by Eon through Arcana, and requires the Essence of Demons to sustain her life. Thing is... she's Eon's dead wife. (Carmilla in "Edifice" gets the idea of creating Ersatz from Eon - TIE-IN GO.) Eon has le romantical feelingz for Nynavae, who is almost incapable of "love." While they're close as business partners, it's a constant struggle for a grumpy old man to not be able to love his not-wife. It's really sad, honestly, especially since he has a few moments of extreme depression where the original Nynavae talks to Erik, his younger self that he has bound up under the name of "Eon" due to his commitment to necromantic Arcana.
Felix (again, previously Collin; he's an immigrant to Cydrel (the country north of Mercedes) and takes on Collin's casino-owning role) ran a gladiator ring, eventually falling in love with one of the gladiators. After they were together for a short time, Felix convinced Darren and his brother Sirius to fight the craziest foe he had ever managed to get into the ring... the spawn of a true Demon. Things didn't go so well, and both brothers became demonized, absorbing the spawn into their souls. Sirius took the brunt of it and is now under the constant effects of blood magic/Arcana to stabilize his humanity (yes, it is fantasy cancer), while Darren/Felix climb the Edifice to try to help Darren conquer the spawn within him. They are madly, passionately in love, and Felix is repentant like Kristoph - but the difference is that he's honestly trying to help Darren. That's his sole reason for climbing, unlike Kristoph who is trying to cover up his sins. Their relationship is much healthier, and where Kristoph constantly doubts himself, Felix and Darren never question themselves or each other. They might be a bit too perfect, but whatever. IT'S SYMBOLIC or something.
Nynavae is an automaton crafted by Eon through Arcana, and requires the Essence of Demons to sustain her life. Thing is... she's Eon's dead wife. (Carmilla in "Edifice" gets the idea of creating Ersatz from Eon - TIE-IN GO.) Eon has le romantical feelingz for Nynavae, who is almost incapable of "love." While they're close as business partners, it's a constant struggle for a grumpy old man to not be able to love his not-wife. It's really sad, honestly, especially since he has a few moments of extreme depression where the original Nynavae talks to Erik, his younger self that he has bound up under the name of "Eon" due to his commitment to necromantic Arcana.
I really, really like the concept of love in video games, since they're longer than a movie and thus have the chance to provide a long-lasting visual representation of the relationship as compared to even the most illustrative of novels. I think it's often done terribly in games, however, which is why I like to smash it into a billion pieces ~ !
emmych
817
@Deckiller: G'awww, you're making me blush. x3
And what, are you saying Anakin and Padme's romance was badly written? I thought his random "EVERYTHING HERE IS SOFT... AND SMOOTH~" was some pretty dandy writing. 8D /shot
@Craze: Hnnggh, yes, I feel the same way. <3 I feel like love is always portrayed so shallowly and simplistic in most media, when it's such a complex, weird and wonderful thing. I dunno, maybe it's because it's marketed to a younger crowd that's satisfied with a simple, fairy tale love story (boy meets girl, the knight saves the princess, average Joe and magical girl Jane, etc.), maybe it's because folks making games would rather focus on the overall plot instead of character relationships, maybe it's because those same folks think we're all stupid and can't handle a real life representation of real life stuff -- whatever the reason, LONG LIVE RPG MAKER AND THOSE OF US WHO WANT TO MAKE REALISTIC LOVE STORIES~
As for smashing it to pieces: hehehehe oh man FUCK YES. <3 I like to focus on the smashing of the female side of things (er, what's marketed to the ladies), that is "WOMEN PUT UP WITH JERKS BECAUSE THEY WILL FIX THEM BY THE END~", or "STOCKHOLM SYNDROME IS A GREAT WAY TO START OUT A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP~", or "LOVE TRIANGLES ARE A WONDERFUL THING AND WHEN MEN FIGHT OVER YOU IT ISN'T OBJECTIFYING AT ALL~", or "IF YOU HAVE A MAN, YOU'LL BE OKAY AND THAT'S ALL YOU NEED~", or "IF HE LOVES YOU HE CAN GET AWAY WITH WHATEVER RIGHT~", etc. etc. etc. I could go on for hours OTL
Fuck romance novel tropes. I want to destroy everything Twilight has made popular. IB
(Also seeing your post is making me wonder why I haven't downloaded and played your entire catalogue of games yet.)
And what, are you saying Anakin and Padme's romance was badly written? I thought his random "EVERYTHING HERE IS SOFT... AND SMOOTH~" was some pretty dandy writing. 8D /shot
@Craze: Hnnggh, yes, I feel the same way. <3 I feel like love is always portrayed so shallowly and simplistic in most media, when it's such a complex, weird and wonderful thing. I dunno, maybe it's because it's marketed to a younger crowd that's satisfied with a simple, fairy tale love story (boy meets girl, the knight saves the princess, average Joe and magical girl Jane, etc.), maybe it's because folks making games would rather focus on the overall plot instead of character relationships, maybe it's because those same folks think we're all stupid and can't handle a real life representation of real life stuff -- whatever the reason, LONG LIVE RPG MAKER AND THOSE OF US WHO WANT TO MAKE REALISTIC LOVE STORIES~
As for smashing it to pieces: hehehehe oh man FUCK YES. <3 I like to focus on the smashing of the female side of things (er, what's marketed to the ladies), that is "WOMEN PUT UP WITH JERKS BECAUSE THEY WILL FIX THEM BY THE END~", or "STOCKHOLM SYNDROME IS A GREAT WAY TO START OUT A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP~", or "LOVE TRIANGLES ARE A WONDERFUL THING AND WHEN MEN FIGHT OVER YOU IT ISN'T OBJECTIFYING AT ALL~", or "IF YOU HAVE A MAN, YOU'LL BE OKAY AND THAT'S ALL YOU NEED~", or "IF HE LOVES YOU HE CAN GET AWAY WITH WHATEVER RIGHT~", etc. etc. etc. I could go on for hours OTL
Fuck romance novel tropes. I want to destroy everything Twilight has made popular. IB
(Also seeing your post is making me wonder why I haven't downloaded and played your entire catalogue of games yet.)
emmych
(Also seeing your post is making me wonder why I haven't downloaded and played your entire catalogue of games yet.)
because they suck XD
All of my good ideas are pretty much in my head and not in the public eye, except parts of Edifice.
I don't think I have anything WORLD ROCKING to contribute but I guess I am contractually obligated to slither into any topic that so much hints at gay stuff huh OTL
I am a huge sap and also in same boat as Craze. Hey let me tell you about all the TOTALLY AWESOME LOVE STORIES I will make in 5+ years. But no really I am a huge sap, lovey dovey things/relationships in general almost always make their way into things I work on becauseI am a hornaball of how interesting and complex relationships can be. It's fascinating and I could write forever about the intricacies of sexuality and the ever pressing question of "what is love?"
However it is a surprisingly hard to get me to care about someone ELSE'S love story shenanigans. Perhaps I am a vain creature? Probably. Anyways the reason a lot of romantic subplots fall flat for me is usually because I have a hard time caring about the characters in the first place, nevermind about who they want to romance.
One thing I'd really love to see more of, aside from gay stuff for me totouch myself to enjoy is love that isn't sexual; things like FAMILY LOVE, or just really close friends who don't want to do naughty things together.
I am putting my masturbatory nonsense in a spoiler.
I am a huge sap and also in same boat as Craze. Hey let me tell you about all the TOTALLY AWESOME LOVE STORIES I will make in 5+ years. But no really I am a huge sap, lovey dovey things/relationships in general almost always make their way into things I work on because
However it is a surprisingly hard to get me to care about someone ELSE'S love story shenanigans. Perhaps I am a vain creature? Probably. Anyways the reason a lot of romantic subplots fall flat for me is usually because I have a hard time caring about the characters in the first place, nevermind about who they want to romance.
One thing I'd really love to see more of, aside from gay stuff for me to
I am putting my masturbatory nonsense in a spoiler.
Actually one of the things technically IN the public eye, Demon Slayer, does have a lot of...I dunno, stuff going on about relationships. You can really contrast the MC with her foes in the game; many of the demons you punch out are indeed in SOME kind of relationship. The first level boss has a terribly unhealthy thing going on with his #1 lackey, the second level boss is involved in a much better (but still pretty unhealthy) relationship with a puny human, the fourth level bosses are a pair of super devoted lovers, as are the 7th level bosses. This is in stark contrast to the MC, whose only real lover is her ideals - they are a cold and unsatisfying love, and she is quite lonely for it. Perhaps you could string some kind of narrative about learning to open up and love and be human from the plot. OR NOT BECAUSE I HAVEN'T RELEASED ANYTHING YET.
And in an entirely unrelated tactical RPG I'd love to make someday that is just called Zodiac for now, it is all about the love and relationships and junk with a bunch of themes relating to FAMILIES and TOGETHERNESS IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY. Love is really a strong motivational force, and is something that drives both the protagonists and antagonists into action. I think that kind of thing is cool, and really like that while a lot of the relationships portrayed are indeed sexual ones, there's a lot of focus on the emotionalboning bonding and how important it is to have people you love around when life is throwing terrible shit at you.
no really though I could talk about myself forever.
And in an entirely unrelated tactical RPG I'd love to make someday that is just called Zodiac for now, it is all about the love and relationships and junk with a bunch of themes relating to FAMILIES and TOGETHERNESS IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY. Love is really a strong motivational force, and is something that drives both the protagonists and antagonists into action. I think that kind of thing is cool, and really like that while a lot of the relationships portrayed are indeed sexual ones, there's a lot of focus on the emotional
no really though I could talk about myself forever.
emmych
817
@Craze: Well I am subbed to Edifice so I will stalk your progress and breathe awkwardly in your ear for ages to come. <3
@Penta: I KNOW THAT FEEL, GURL. OTL Oh man, I wanna see all the Nakama's ever. <3
And you mentioning Zodiac and stuff made a think pop into my head: yeah, the POWER OF LOVE~ is actually really awesome, but it seems to be implemented... badly? I dunno if the word I'm looking for is "bad" or "tired" when thinking about it. I mean, the first example of THE POWER OF LOVE~ I think of is "THE HERO IS IN A TRANCE AND THE HEROINE USES HER LOVE TO FIX HIS EVILNESS~" -- you know, like in InuYasha, Baten Kaitos, Final Fantasy 7, etc. etc. etc. so on and so forth. This isn't an inherently bad plot point to have, I think, but like... yeah, I get it, love triumphs over evil and that's cool; can I see something different now, please?
Seriously, love is my favourite motivation for every character ever. Even my villains are motivated by love, because otherwise they're so campy and unidimensional and buuuh let's just throw Sephiroth in there and call it a day hnngh IB
(also man Zodiac has gotta happen someday. THE WORLD NEEDS IT aka I want to draw pictures of the cast everywhere and make the yet-to-be-drawn HugoXAlvaro pic a thing that everyone can understandand fap to)
@Penta: I KNOW THAT FEEL, GURL. OTL Oh man, I wanna see all the Nakama's ever. <3
And you mentioning Zodiac and stuff made a think pop into my head: yeah, the POWER OF LOVE~ is actually really awesome, but it seems to be implemented... badly? I dunno if the word I'm looking for is "bad" or "tired" when thinking about it. I mean, the first example of THE POWER OF LOVE~ I think of is "THE HERO IS IN A TRANCE AND THE HEROINE USES HER LOVE TO FIX HIS EVILNESS~" -- you know, like in InuYasha, Baten Kaitos, Final Fantasy 7, etc. etc. etc. so on and so forth. This isn't an inherently bad plot point to have, I think, but like... yeah, I get it, love triumphs over evil and that's cool; can I see something different now, please?
Seriously, love is my favourite motivation for every character ever. Even my villains are motivated by love, because otherwise they're so campy and unidimensional and buuuh let's just throw Sephiroth in there and call it a day hnngh IB
(also man Zodiac has gotta happen someday. THE WORLD NEEDS IT aka I want to draw pictures of the cast everywhere and make the yet-to-be-drawn HugoXAlvaro pic a thing that everyone can understand
Crystalgate
694
author=emmych
And you mentioning Zodiac and stuff made a think pop into my head: yeah, the POWER OF LOVE~ is actually really awesome, but it seems to be implemented... badly? I dunno if the word I'm looking for is "bad" or "tired" when thinking about it. I mean, the first example of THE POWER OF LOVE~ I think of is "THE HERO IS IN A TRANCE AND THE HEROINE USES HER LOVE TO FIX HIS EVILNESS~" -- you know, like in InuYasha, Baten Kaitos, Final Fantasy 7, etc. etc. etc. so on and so forth.
How about fairytaleish? It's not a real word, but whatever.
Echoing emmych on Zodiac although I know far less about it, apparently.
Regarding "romance as a subplot," I think that's part of the problem. Make it a thing, not a subplot. An interesting subplot is the gubernatorial election in O Brother, Where Art Thou and its correlation to the KKK; the romance/tension between Ulysses and Penny is not a subplot, but a Thing That Is. It's a plot device (and a reference to the tasks of Penelope), but it's not a ~~~~subplot~~~~ and you don't get the ultimate weapon for finishing it.
When romance is a Thing That Is and not HERE LOOK THERE IS A ROMANCE, HOLY SHIT THIS INVOLVES PENISES AND VAGINAS TINGLING, I think it's typically absorbed much better. See: FFVIII's Squall/Rinoa versus FFXII's Ashe/Rasler. Rasler is a plot device, yeah, but he's also a Thing That Is instead of ~~~OOH LOOK ASHE HAS A BOYFRIEND~~~~~.
Regarding "romance as a subplot," I think that's part of the problem. Make it a thing, not a subplot. An interesting subplot is the gubernatorial election in O Brother, Where Art Thou and its correlation to the KKK; the romance/tension between Ulysses and Penny is not a subplot, but a Thing That Is. It's a plot device (and a reference to the tasks of Penelope), but it's not a ~~~~subplot~~~~ and you don't get the ultimate weapon for finishing it.
When romance is a Thing That Is and not HERE LOOK THERE IS A ROMANCE, HOLY SHIT THIS INVOLVES PENISES AND VAGINAS TINGLING, I think it's typically absorbed much better. See: FFVIII's Squall/Rinoa versus FFXII's Ashe/Rasler. Rasler is a plot device, yeah, but he's also a Thing That Is instead of ~~~OOH LOOK ASHE HAS A BOYFRIEND~~~~~.
