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LITERATURE AND GAMES?
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Murmillo
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Murmillo
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CloseGreetings, game theorists!
Question for the masses: what do you think of the link between literature and games?
I'm writing my final paper for college (yes!) on this subject for an independent study, and wanted to get the RMN community's opinions, thoughts, and theories.
Basically, I see literature as a necessary step in the development of the Adventure and RPG genres, as both rely or have relied quite heavily on the written word for dialogue, narration, and advancement of plot. But can we really critically think about a game the same way we examine a book? I think some similar thought processes take place in how we approach the work, but I believe that the inclusion of game mechanics add that extra bit of 'magic' that literature cannot achieve on its own. And while game mechanics usually focus on the exact opposite of literature (numbers, clicking a button to continue reading, etc.) they still create a different experience.
This isn't about if games are art or not, it's about the relationship between literature and games. If you have any thoughts, examples, or input, then please feel free to share! I would very much enjoy discussing the topic (it's also helping me to flesh out my main ideas by having people that understand read my thoughts).
=p
-Josh
Question for the masses: what do you think of the link between literature and games?
I'm writing my final paper for college (yes!) on this subject for an independent study, and wanted to get the RMN community's opinions, thoughts, and theories.
Basically, I see literature as a necessary step in the development of the Adventure and RPG genres, as both rely or have relied quite heavily on the written word for dialogue, narration, and advancement of plot. But can we really critically think about a game the same way we examine a book? I think some similar thought processes take place in how we approach the work, but I believe that the inclusion of game mechanics add that extra bit of 'magic' that literature cannot achieve on its own. And while game mechanics usually focus on the exact opposite of literature (numbers, clicking a button to continue reading, etc.) they still create a different experience.
This isn't about if games are art or not, it's about the relationship between literature and games. If you have any thoughts, examples, or input, then please feel free to share! I would very much enjoy discussing the topic (it's also helping me to flesh out my main ideas by having people that understand read my thoughts).
=p
-Josh
Well, nothing like a cup of coffe and a good book (I am not a reader but when I hear those expressions I always want to feel that feeling they are talking about) I think a big difference of why I would choose both (in other words, why boths are equal of good).
Books:
Games:
those are the difference and well, in terms of why they are connect (in the games that use literature, space invaders have none) is that even if they are not the same, they share a lot of elements, the dialogues, the plot, the personallities, dreams and fears (for me those two diamonds are the one that give flavor to any story) credibility of the events. If you are a good writer (I like to talk like one... I am lying but in case you think I am a good writer, thank you very much, but I suck, I am just giving my opinion about them, not that I have their experiences) you will are able to create an amazing game but you need to know what is the difference in order to exploit their potential.
Books:
1.- They always going forward, you don't loose time fighting monsters, lucking for non-sense located chest (who put a chest in the middle of a forest please), and if you do, they tell you all that in less than a paragraph, or if is it more is because it is really a part of the story.
2.- Games (text-based games are the exception) are there, if you see mario with a red hat is because is there, in the books they only say red cap and your imagination could be different to the other, In books you recreate what is created but in your own way and the story is the same but in your point of view through the point of view of the narrator (kind of bookception)
3.-Thoughs, not movies, not games, not the most emotional lyrics of a song, not the beatifull paint of the neighboor, nothing can win to the complexity of thoughs that the writer can put to his work.
4.-Talking about amounts, books have a lot more good stories than games.
2.- Games (text-based games are the exception) are there, if you see mario with a red hat is because is there, in the books they only say red cap and your imagination could be different to the other, In books you recreate what is created but in your own way and the story is the same but in your point of view through the point of view of the narrator (kind of bookception)
3.-Thoughs, not movies, not games, not the most emotional lyrics of a song, not the beatifull paint of the neighboor, nothing can win to the complexity of thoughs that the writer can put to his work.
4.-Talking about amounts, books have a lot more good stories than games.
Games:
1.-Even if you move your hands and your mind to resolve puzzles, someone lazy would prefer a game than a book even if you use the same amount of energy(I am mr.lazy, I know about that.) Games are immersive as hell, you only put start and suddenlty you are Alex the warrior who his main task is to save the world. Books are immersive but not so much: "it was a rainy day, and the smell of spring was in the air" ooh nice...good for you I guess and it takes longer to you to get into the shoes of the main character.
2.-Games can offer you everything, incredible music, stunning graphics, mind-blowing stories, there are educational games, you can even socialize in the online games, what can games not offer to you (well there are few things they don't but... maybe other day)
3.-Interactivy, very similiar to the immerse force we were talking, but why those two words are not alike. You can actually decide in the place of the character, you can interact with the world that the game maker has done for you, books has limits in that. games can be a lot more opens.
4.-Talking about amounts game can last a lot more than books.
2.-Games can offer you everything, incredible music, stunning graphics, mind-blowing stories, there are educational games, you can even socialize in the online games, what can games not offer to you (well there are few things they don't but... maybe other day)
3.-Interactivy, very similiar to the immerse force we were talking, but why those two words are not alike. You can actually decide in the place of the character, you can interact with the world that the game maker has done for you, books has limits in that. games can be a lot more opens.
4.-Talking about amounts game can last a lot more than books.
those are the difference and well, in terms of why they are connect (in the games that use literature, space invaders have none) is that even if they are not the same, they share a lot of elements, the dialogues, the plot, the personallities, dreams and fears (for me those two diamonds are the one that give flavor to any story) credibility of the events. If you are a good writer (I like to talk like one... I am lying but in case you think I am a good writer, thank you very much, but I suck, I am just giving my opinion about them, not that I have their experiences) you will are able to create an amazing game but you need to know what is the difference in order to exploit their potential.
Murmillo
0
Thanks for your excellent input MrChearlie- I agree with many of your points.
I sometimes find that I feel like I'm reading a book when playing an RPG, especially now that they have the digital books. Either way a page progressed with the press of a button!
You're taking a much more physical approach to your ideas than I was expecting. I didn't consider laziness a factor in wanting to experience a story. But it's very true. Most people would prefer to see the movie than read the book (from my personal encounters with people).
I wonder if the written word, being the direct connection to complex thought, is capable of being expressed so well because it is such a direct transition. It's one thing to write out a story, another one to find actors lights, props, and to film it. Or to add the right music and effects to it. And then the added challenge of expressing that same thought using game mechanics as well. It feels almost like when a video gets uploaded, redownloaded, and reuploaded repeatedly (I work with videos). The quality degrades with each tweak from the original, and contorts until it is almost unrecognizable.
Perhaps the written word doesn't have to go through as many processes to be understood by the audience it is aimed at. This is all speculation, but great stuff to write down.
Thanks again, MrChearlie- I would like to enjoy reading some of your work if you have it posted somewhere on these interwebs!
I sometimes find that I feel like I'm reading a book when playing an RPG, especially now that they have the digital books. Either way a page progressed with the press of a button!
You're taking a much more physical approach to your ideas than I was expecting. I didn't consider laziness a factor in wanting to experience a story. But it's very true. Most people would prefer to see the movie than read the book (from my personal encounters with people).
I wonder if the written word, being the direct connection to complex thought, is capable of being expressed so well because it is such a direct transition. It's one thing to write out a story, another one to find actors lights, props, and to film it. Or to add the right music and effects to it. And then the added challenge of expressing that same thought using game mechanics as well. It feels almost like when a video gets uploaded, redownloaded, and reuploaded repeatedly (I work with videos). The quality degrades with each tweak from the original, and contorts until it is almost unrecognizable.
Perhaps the written word doesn't have to go through as many processes to be understood by the audience it is aimed at. This is all speculation, but great stuff to write down.
Thanks again, MrChearlie- I would like to enjoy reading some of your work if you have it posted somewhere on these interwebs!
xavion
0
I'm of the opinion that the better the game the more writing and world building it has, what this means is that essentially I believe that a really good game should have more detail and world building then any story. Write out your world's history and myths, plan their layout and culture, pretty much do every thing. Of course that's impractical and stupid most of the time but oh well, also if you didn't get the point it was that all games should pretty much be literature except with more planning then most books.
Biggamefreak
1799
My research paper for college was called "Video Games as Narrative" and I was exploring the same thing. Here is a piece of my paper that made a good starter.
-----------------------------------------
"Some people argue that video games do not have narrative, but Jesper Juul, author of Half Real, argues that even the simplest video games have narrative. He used the old arcade game “Space Invaders” as his example: The player controls a small geometrical shape that shoots bullets and must shoot all of the moving geometrical shapes to win. The narrative of the game is about aliens from space and their goal to invade earth. The player will control a ship and defeat the aliens to save earth. The first model is the game and the second part is the narrative. Without the story to explain the game, the geometrical shapes are meaningless, and there is no goal."
-----------------------------------------
My professor recommended to me to use just 1 game as the example in my paper to describe the relationship between the gameplay and the narrative. The game I chose was Chrono Trigger. (I wonder why I chose it... -Looks at avatar-...hmmm)
Here are the books that I used for my research paper. I provided links so you could purchase them. Good luck with your paper.
Rules of Play: Game Design Fundamentals
Theory of Fun for Game Design
Swords and Circuitry A Designer's Guide to Computer Role-Playing Games
Everything Bad is Good for You
Half-Real: Video Games between Real Rules and Fictional Worlds
Here is a book on story structure. Your audience will be English professors, so this book will help you:
Hero of a Thousand Faces
This one is on literary criticism, medieval archetypes, myths and symbols:
Anatomy of Criticism
These books should be more than helpful on getting reliable sources and reading wonderful books. When looking for your sources, my professor recommended me to not read everything because you don't have the time. You should at least read the intro and find the passages that will strengthen your paper.
-----------------------------------------
"Some people argue that video games do not have narrative, but Jesper Juul, author of Half Real, argues that even the simplest video games have narrative. He used the old arcade game “Space Invaders” as his example: The player controls a small geometrical shape that shoots bullets and must shoot all of the moving geometrical shapes to win. The narrative of the game is about aliens from space and their goal to invade earth. The player will control a ship and defeat the aliens to save earth. The first model is the game and the second part is the narrative. Without the story to explain the game, the geometrical shapes are meaningless, and there is no goal."
-----------------------------------------
My professor recommended to me to use just 1 game as the example in my paper to describe the relationship between the gameplay and the narrative. The game I chose was Chrono Trigger. (I wonder why I chose it... -Looks at avatar-...hmmm)
Here are the books that I used for my research paper. I provided links so you could purchase them. Good luck with your paper.
Rules of Play: Game Design Fundamentals
Theory of Fun for Game Design
Swords and Circuitry A Designer's Guide to Computer Role-Playing Games
Everything Bad is Good for You
Half-Real: Video Games between Real Rules and Fictional Worlds
Here is a book on story structure. Your audience will be English professors, so this book will help you:
Hero of a Thousand Faces
This one is on literary criticism, medieval archetypes, myths and symbols:
Anatomy of Criticism
These books should be more than helpful on getting reliable sources and reading wonderful books. When looking for your sources, my professor recommended me to not read everything because you don't have the time. You should at least read the intro and find the passages that will strengthen your paper.
author=Murmillo
Thanks again, MrChearlie- I would like to enjoy reading some of your work if you have it posted somewhere on these interwebs!
Well I finish the first draft of a book (in spanish) I was going two start the second one but things happenend in my life and when I begin reading my work, it was good (the story, the overall was shit written, that's why it needed to rewrite it) but even if I like it despite the huge errors, it was empty and since then everything I have, if I have this amazing thing in my head, a lyric, anything, when I write it down, is empty, no matter how great it is, I don't feel anything about it even when in my mind I am feeling the emotions like if I was in them. I got depressed in that aspect and stop writing, so if you check what have I written here you will only find silly post on the welp! welp! and in the creative corner (no creative posts I have to said)
sorry for that I really wanted to say it
wow, BigGameFreak that's amazing, I think I will start reading that later ;)
One weakness of games compared to literature is that, since they blur the relationship between the player and the protagonist, it's difficult to portray the protagonist failing without portraying the player as failing. This gets particularly ugly when the protagonist is intended to fail because of moral fault. In a good book, you can always say the protagonist failed because he did the right thing the wrong way, but in a game, you'll get the same result no matter how many times you pick the same moral choice, so you can't conclude anything other than that the game condemns that moral choice. (Of course, with games as with books, a lot of artists consider it a plus to clearly demonstrate their own moral convictions, no matter how much this infuriates readers and players who operate under different convictions.)
Biggamefreak
1799
No problem Murmillo and thank you McChearlie.
After reading these books, they will inspire you into looking at more game theory (The math game theory too) and you'll want to try out games like the Royal Game of Ur, Alter Ego or try other simple games. (Alter Ego is a simple decision making game with stats, but the choices you choose will scare and excite you.)
You'll want see what meaningful choices are, how game designers want gamers to reach the "Flow state," (mental state of pure immersion) or how game designers employ Pavlovian concepts to motivate the players, and other interesting topics.Then after getting burnt out of this amazing and boring stuff, you will just want to just play a great game and just fall in love with your game.
Out of of all of the book choices I gave you, Half Real by Jesper Juul talks the most about video games as narrative play. One of my favorite concepts is how gamers use the story's plot and game rules to talk about out games. This guy likes to point out in his book that story telling is not a gameplay mechanic and he is right. Storytelling does not offer you game rules. We have seen how storytelling enhances the game. They can hint at rules, make certain game aspects more desirable or more feared, teach us, and evoke emotions out of gamers.
I'm reading my paper again, and I thought this segment also would inspire your thoughts.
---------------------------------
Chrono Trigger is called a role playing game where the player must fight non player characters to increase the player stats, and must finish a certain set of tasks to proceed to the next set of tasks. Storytelling in Chrono Trigger uses the game rules to animate and give meaning to the video game world. By adding the story to the game, the hero Chrono, must fight monsters, must get stronger through experience, and figure out how to save the world. Storytelling is meant to create meaning to the abstract rules and also intends to hide what the game actually is.
---------------------------------
Gotta love games.
After reading these books, they will inspire you into looking at more game theory (The math game theory too) and you'll want to try out games like the Royal Game of Ur, Alter Ego or try other simple games. (Alter Ego is a simple decision making game with stats, but the choices you choose will scare and excite you.)
You'll want see what meaningful choices are, how game designers want gamers to reach the "Flow state," (mental state of pure immersion) or how game designers employ Pavlovian concepts to motivate the players, and other interesting topics.Then after getting burnt out of this amazing and boring stuff, you will just want to just play a great game and just fall in love with your game.
Out of of all of the book choices I gave you, Half Real by Jesper Juul talks the most about video games as narrative play. One of my favorite concepts is how gamers use the story's plot and game rules to talk about out games. This guy likes to point out in his book that story telling is not a gameplay mechanic and he is right. Storytelling does not offer you game rules. We have seen how storytelling enhances the game. They can hint at rules, make certain game aspects more desirable or more feared, teach us, and evoke emotions out of gamers.
I'm reading my paper again, and I thought this segment also would inspire your thoughts.
---------------------------------
Chrono Trigger is called a role playing game where the player must fight non player characters to increase the player stats, and must finish a certain set of tasks to proceed to the next set of tasks. Storytelling in Chrono Trigger uses the game rules to animate and give meaning to the video game world. By adding the story to the game, the hero Chrono, must fight monsters, must get stronger through experience, and figure out how to save the world. Storytelling is meant to create meaning to the abstract rules and also intends to hide what the game actually is.
---------------------------------
Gotta love games.
Murmillo
0
Nice!
I still have to finish my paper, but I gave my presentation yesterday, and it went fairly well! However, the game I made crashed as I was exporting it, and so I didn't get to display it. =(
It was a short platformer inspired by one of my favorite moments in "Ender's Game". Looks like an audio file was corrupt or something. If I can get it working I will upload it to RMN!
I still have to finish my paper, but I gave my presentation yesterday, and it went fairly well! However, the game I made crashed as I was exporting it, and so I didn't get to display it. =(
It was a short platformer inspired by one of my favorite moments in "Ender's Game". Looks like an audio file was corrupt or something. If I can get it working I will upload it to RMN!
Crystalgate
694
The biggest difference I can think of is that games are interactive while literature is not. Even if you take away the controls from the player during cutscenes, the interactivity still affects what works and what doesn't work in a story.
Imagine that a man the heroes are looking for hides in a location that you can only get to by going trough poison spewing volcanoes. In a book, that would be followed by the heroes first going to the volcanoes and then going past them. In a game, the player has to move the heroes. This means that you want to give the player a good reason to go there, besides that the game won't progress otherwise that is. Otherwise the player will feel like he's wasting his time. In books, you can easier get away by having the characters act on their own personal reasons and go against common sense.
The description "poison spewing volcanoes" also have a different effect in literature and games. In books, it means the characters will have to deal with poisonous gas (expect them to get rather miserable) and there may even be a climax where a volcano bursts way to close to the heroes. In games, the volcanoes means fire monsters and if it's an RPG, I may get fire and poison protection. The volcanoes doesn't bring the same sense of danger since hearing that the monsters will burn you instead of biting, pounding and clawing you isn't very impressive.
But the interactivity can also work to the writer's favor. If you do successfully manage to portray a place that sounds awesome to explore to the player, you can get the player exited and motivated for over half an hour with less than five minutes text or voice-acting.
Really, I think that in games, it's important to work with the players instead of against them. Obviously, you can't just ignore the wishes of the audience in literature either, but I find it easier to tolerate stupid behaviors from the "good" guys in books than in games.
Imagine that a man the heroes are looking for hides in a location that you can only get to by going trough poison spewing volcanoes. In a book, that would be followed by the heroes first going to the volcanoes and then going past them. In a game, the player has to move the heroes. This means that you want to give the player a good reason to go there, besides that the game won't progress otherwise that is. Otherwise the player will feel like he's wasting his time. In books, you can easier get away by having the characters act on their own personal reasons and go against common sense.
The description "poison spewing volcanoes" also have a different effect in literature and games. In books, it means the characters will have to deal with poisonous gas (expect them to get rather miserable) and there may even be a climax where a volcano bursts way to close to the heroes. In games, the volcanoes means fire monsters and if it's an RPG, I may get fire and poison protection. The volcanoes doesn't bring the same sense of danger since hearing that the monsters will burn you instead of biting, pounding and clawing you isn't very impressive.
But the interactivity can also work to the writer's favor. If you do successfully manage to portray a place that sounds awesome to explore to the player, you can get the player exited and motivated for over half an hour with less than five minutes text or voice-acting.
Really, I think that in games, it's important to work with the players instead of against them. Obviously, you can't just ignore the wishes of the audience in literature either, but I find it easier to tolerate stupid behaviors from the "good" guys in books than in games.
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