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THE CONTEMPORARY TOUCH: TRADITIONAL RPGS FOR A NEW GENERATION
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
LockeZ
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CloseI was more worried about save-fucking yourself because I'd already suggested auto-saving earlier. I actually really like auto-saving (with one save file per character) and think it gives your game a nice modern feeling, and if you auto-reload and immediately auto-save after the player dies then you've also prevented save scumming and also gained the ability to add custom penalties for dying if you want.
If you're doing manual saves instead then it's less of an issue, but I feel like games have generally moved away from forcing the players to manage that stuff themselves. This is really just an interface thing and not a gameplay thing.
If you're doing manual saves instead then it's less of an issue, but I feel like games have generally moved away from forcing the players to manage that stuff themselves. This is really just an interface thing and not a gameplay thing.
prexus
309
I like the checkpoint idea for autosaving. Like, you transition from the worldmap to Cave of Lulz, it autosaves you just inside the room. You clear a few rooms of the cave and it opens up into an underground temple, it autosaves you at the entrance to the temple. You clear through and find a cloister with a menacing demon, it saves you at the entrance to the room.
When you fight, if you lose, you get the option of starting the fight again or going back to the last checkpoint you were at, or going back to the last town you were in. Resources should remain spent, though, if its a game about managing resources in the dungeon. Perhaps let you start the dungeon again from the furthest checkpoint you were at so you don't have to replay the whole thing again, Diablo style. The only issue with that is, get to the last boss, teleport out, restock resources, teleport back in and fight him. You don't manage resources that way. So I wouldn't do that, personally.
The other idea with Weapons that Jude was starting into, that I had while reading it, is rather than have various weapons get progressively better. Just have different styles of weapons that do different things and cause you to have slightly different combat styles. Simple things, like a Spear would make the Defend ability less useful, a Bow has Defense-ignoring properties, but the enemies Evade stat is more effective.
Have the weapon types become available as you go through the game (Secret of Mana style) and use Armor/Trinkets as a way of customizing things instead of just having weapons get progressively better.
When you fight, if you lose, you get the option of starting the fight again or going back to the last checkpoint you were at, or going back to the last town you were in. Resources should remain spent, though, if its a game about managing resources in the dungeon. Perhaps let you start the dungeon again from the furthest checkpoint you were at so you don't have to replay the whole thing again, Diablo style. The only issue with that is, get to the last boss, teleport out, restock resources, teleport back in and fight him. You don't manage resources that way. So I wouldn't do that, personally.
The other idea with Weapons that Jude was starting into, that I had while reading it, is rather than have various weapons get progressively better. Just have different styles of weapons that do different things and cause you to have slightly different combat styles. Simple things, like a Spear would make the Defend ability less useful, a Bow has Defense-ignoring properties, but the enemies Evade stat is more effective.
Have the weapon types become available as you go through the game (Secret of Mana style) and use Armor/Trinkets as a way of customizing things instead of just having weapons get progressively better.
If you are trying to capture the oldschool feel, I would suggest keeping individual skills straightforward with a single effect/purpose. let the complexity come from multiple characters using skills and abilities over a series of turns, rather than any one particular skill doing 6 different things (which I know you have a propensity to do).
kentona
If you are trying to capture the oldschool feel, I would suggest keeping individual skills straightforward with a single effect/purpose. let the complexity come from multiple characters using skills and abilities over a series of turns, rather than any one particular skill doing 6 different things (which I know you have a propensity to do).
THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF MY GREATEST STRUGGLES
seriously I've talked about this at length with both ChaosProductions and Karsuman, and it's haaaaaarrrrrdd for me
What I've been trying to do is include interesting skills that are still focused. Like, one of the Wind spells is Roulette, which hits a random enemy but deals additional damage per each enemy present. Basically, I'm trying to hit that sweet spot between "boring Firaga" and "CRAZEGAMZ HAVE EIGHTY EFFECTS..." stuff
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Try adding cooldowns to the more boring spells.
I know that sounds like a little bit of a copout, but if you're trying to add skill rotations without adding complexity, it works. When you can only use your damage spells three out of five rounds, the leftover rounds are forced to be used for support/tactical skills. End result is basically the same as if you'd combined the damage and support effects into one skill, except I guess a little slower.
Alternately just say "fuck that, boring skills are not a thing that anyone really misses" and add your Craze-style heal spell that increases the caster's physical attack and lowers the target's speed and gets a 40% MP discount if it heals the target to full health. I mean you are obviously trying to intentionally remove SOME aspects of oldschoolness - what exactly is your criteria for whether a particular new-school feature is worth including or not?
I know that sounds like a little bit of a copout, but if you're trying to add skill rotations without adding complexity, it works. When you can only use your damage spells three out of five rounds, the leftover rounds are forced to be used for support/tactical skills. End result is basically the same as if you'd combined the damage and support effects into one skill, except I guess a little slower.
Alternately just say "fuck that, boring skills are not a thing that anyone really misses" and add your Craze-style heal spell that increases the caster's physical attack and lowers the target's speed and gets a 40% MP discount if it heals the target to full health. I mean you are obviously trying to intentionally remove SOME aspects of oldschoolness - what exactly is your criteria for whether a particular new-school feature is worth including or not?
LockeZ
Try adding cooldowns to the more boring spells.
I'm already including a two-turn cooldown on everything that isn't a basic attack, partially for the rest of the reasons in your post. Mage classes (I'm using a class system similarish to FFV) will still be able to toss fireballs around constantly, but that's because mage = damage. They're not going to survive without the other classes. And, they'll still be rotating between a few different spells.
LockeZ
Alternately just say "fuck that, boring skills are not a thing that anyone really misses" and add your Craze-style heal spell that increases the caster's physical attack and lowers the target's speed and gets a 40% MP discount if it heals the target to full health.
lol, this game doesn't even have direct healing via skills. You can only heal through items. I hate mandating that you have a white mage in your party.
LockeZ
I mean you are obviously trying to intentionally remove SOME aspects of oldschoolness - what exactly is your criteria for whether a particular new-school feature is worth including or not?
If it's fun and dynamic, it stays. If it's just one (or neither), it probably won't make the cut. Firaga isn't very dynamic; the foot -> boat -> ship -> airship progression is.
emmych
817
author=NewBlack
Whatchu said
Everything you said
everything
yes IB
FUCKING YES IB
seriously I hear the word "elves" nowadays and I actually want to individually pluck my pubic hairs out, I swear to god auugghh
author=Craze
But does the game even need a narrative? Don't games just... need to be games? Millions of people play League of Legends, and it has some fluffy backstory that I've never read but the game is... a game. That you play. Do you play backgammon or Monopoly for the story?
Anyone who doesn't want to play Backgammon for the obvious commentary on the good/evil dichotomy or play Monopoly for the heart-wrenching tale of a rags to riches struggle is a terrorist >;I
...in all seriousness, though, I DIG NARRATIVES IN MY GAMES, and they are definitely one of my reasons behind picking up an RPG. Do I think it is the backbone of a game? No, that would be what you play in the game. But is it a thing that makes me more drawn to one game than another? You bet it is, or I wouldn't still be replaying FF9 after all these years. If you put two functionally identical games in front of me and one had a cast/story I hated, I'm obviously gonna go for the other one.
I also think games are a really awesome new medium for stories, because there is that level of audience interaction that you don't get with books or movies or comics or whatever. But it really is a coat of paint, same as how the stories of 1980s cartoons were the coat of paint for a toy commercial. It's not the main function of a game, just a piece of it. An important piece, yes, but not a vital one!
SO TL;DR THEY AREN'T NECESSARY BUT THEY ARE PRETTY NICE TO HAVE
I CAN'T EVEN REALLY TELL IF THIS WAS ON TOPIC OR NOT but you know I don't even caaaaare because I moved yesterday and I am tired OTL
author=Craze
But does the game even need a narrative? Don't games just... need to be games? Millions of people play League of Legends, and it has some fluffy backstory that I've never read but the game is... a game. That you play. Do you play backgammon or Monopoly for the story?
I do not understand why some people are offended by the idea of a game's narrative being interesting to some people. Are the people who like narrative in your games hurting you somehow? Did they kill your parents?
If you're talking super hardcore old school, like original Dragon Quest, yeah, that game had no story outside of "grind for twelve hours." I'd say that game hasn't aged well.
But take some of the games after that (mid-old school?) like final Fantasy 4. That game had a narrative that was unintrusive but interesting and compelling and a lot of people enjoy it. Taking story out back and shooting it and insisting that its an unnecessary distraction is a mistake in my opinion.
i never said that all games don't need narratives, like, I agree about games being an excellent art form and whatnot, and hell, I LIKE Xenosaga, and the project this topic is about has a narrative/characters, and
seriously, soli, I'm not OFFENDED, i'm just saying that can't some "RPGs" just be games without the narrative? it works for basically any other genre, even adventure games if you treat them as a this-goes-here puzzle
atmosphere/presentation can go a long way to provide a mystique without a concrete narrative - like Castlevania SotN would still be engrossing without its, what, ten or so dialogue boxes?
also FFIV hasn't aged well either =x
seriously, soli, I'm not OFFENDED, i'm just saying that can't some "RPGs" just be games without the narrative? it works for basically any other genre, even adventure games if you treat them as a this-goes-here puzzle
atmosphere/presentation can go a long way to provide a mystique without a concrete narrative - like Castlevania SotN would still be engrossing without its, what, ten or so dialogue boxes?
also FFIV hasn't aged well either =x
I've heard it argued, most formally in Extra Credits, that what's called an "Eastern RPG" is a completely different genre from a "Western RPG" (in the same sense that Silent Hill 2 is a completely different genre from Resident Evil 4), and that narrative is one of the hallmarks of the "Eastern RPG" genre, such that without narrative, a work can't be an "Eastern RPG." However, it's trivial to point out "Western RPGs" that don't depend on narrative (e.g. Diablo), and some Japanese games are closer to the theoretical concept of a "Western RPG" than an "Eastern RPG" (e.g. Demon's Souls.)
oh diablo 3 wants you to know that it has a narrative because
HEY GUYS IT HAS A NARRATIVE
HERE IS THE NARRATIVE, MMM, YOU LIKE THOSE POP-UPS, YOU LIKE THAT SCROLL TREASURE, YEAH, TAKE IT
LET US SHOVE OUR NARRATIVE IN YOUR FACE SOME MORE
LET US MAKE IT TALK TO YOU BECAUSE DIABLO 3 NEEDS MORE NARRATIVE MMMMM YEEEEAAHHH BUDDDYYYYYY
(diablo 3 beta was awful)
Re: Demon's Souls, it's oozing in atmosphere and setting quality. It doesn't need a strong narrative, the game has this awful (in the medieval sense) presence about it -
HEY GUYS IT HAS A NARRATIVE
HERE IS THE NARRATIVE, MMM, YOU LIKE THOSE POP-UPS, YOU LIKE THAT SCROLL TREASURE, YEAH, TAKE IT
LET US SHOVE OUR NARRATIVE IN YOUR FACE SOME MORE
LET US MAKE IT TALK TO YOU BECAUSE DIABLO 3 NEEDS MORE NARRATIVE MMMMM YEEEEAAHHH BUDDDYYYYYY
(diablo 3 beta was awful)
Re: Demon's Souls, it's oozing in atmosphere and setting quality. It doesn't need a strong narrative, the game has this awful (in the medieval sense) presence about it -
amerk
2539
Add s way to swap out equipment in battle. Making a system that requires the player to have a particular equipment with the proper strength and/or resistance is sort of mute if you can't swap out a bad piece of weaponry in the midst of battle. Even better if you are up against a horde of enemies all with their own forms of resistance, because the player then must decide who should be equipped with what.
I would also like to encourage giving the player the option of divying out their own EXP and/or stat points, rather than having it built into the system. It gives the player a bit of control on how they wish to develop their own character, which does a great job of pulling the player into the game.
I would also like to encourage giving the player the option of divying out their own EXP and/or stat points, rather than having it built into the system. It gives the player a bit of control on how they wish to develop their own character, which does a great job of pulling the player into the game.
Barring that, employ a system where you can equip a secondary set of weapons/shields and have an ability to swap out the primary and secondary equipment sets.
(I always liked those, because it means you had to be prepared for the area, but you had some insurance in that second set)
(I always liked those, because it means you had to be prepared for the area, but you had some insurance in that second set)
Well, I'm using a class system where each class for each character has its own level (think Dragon Quest, DQIX specifically - Grant may be a L25 Warden/L17 Raider/L4 Druid while Daphne is a L36 Scout/L12 Raider). You have total control over classes, and everybody can equip everything (you want a Templar in a mystic shawl or an Evoker in full platemail? GO FOR IT).
Weapons (including shields, you can equip two shields if you so wish) and their associated weaponskills are separated from classes entirely; equip a dagger and you have its attached basic attack and dagger-only skill. (Each weapon type has three total skills, so you could equip two daggers and a Duelist's Cap to have all three available, or you could equip a sword and a staff, or....) Classes still have "attacks," but it works like "Envenom: Attacks this turn have a 90% chance to inflict Poison." You activate as many modifiers as you want, then actually attack with your free basic attack or a weapon skill.
Because the game is already so incredibly flexible, I don't think I'm going to allow mid-battle equip changes... I COULD, and I totally get your reasoning, but think that with such open-ended and freely-swapped abilities ("respeccing" is as simple as entering the Class menu or fiddling with your weapons), it'd almost be too much. In a stricter game, though, I'd totally do that. =)
Weapons (including shields, you can equip two shields if you so wish) and their associated weaponskills are separated from classes entirely; equip a dagger and you have its attached basic attack and dagger-only skill. (Each weapon type has three total skills, so you could equip two daggers and a Duelist's Cap to have all three available, or you could equip a sword and a staff, or....) Classes still have "attacks," but it works like "Envenom: Attacks this turn have a 90% chance to inflict Poison." You activate as many modifiers as you want, then actually attack with your free basic attack or a weapon skill.
Because the game is already so incredibly flexible, I don't think I'm going to allow mid-battle equip changes... I COULD, and I totally get your reasoning, but think that with such open-ended and freely-swapped abilities ("respeccing" is as simple as entering the Class menu or fiddling with your weapons), it'd almost be too much. In a stricter game, though, I'd totally do that. =)
prexus
309
I thought you were making this a lot more basic. If you start making such complicated,albeit good systems you run into the downside that the game doesn't match the gameplay. It will make your story and mapping seem worse than they are. I thought the idea was to improve on the classic formula and not reinvent the wheel.
You can't have a game without a narrative unless it's sheer abstraction (like backgammon, or checkers, or, to a somewhat lesser extent, chess). The moment you put a sprite of a human being on a map made of tiles, a narrative spontaneously springs up.
Yeah, you're kinda falling in the same mistake kentona first pointed out by meshing up a thousand effects in your attacks.
The system looks convoluted at first, but I'm pretty sure it is manageable. I think you may be moving the wrong cogs in the engine, though. Battles are not all about the skills, first of all - Firaga is not dynamic in itself, but you can find ways to make it dynamic (either by efficient skill combinations or modifying enemies' properties) instead of making all skills interact with each other and over-complexizing the whole system.
Dynanism isn't inherently good.
The system looks convoluted at first, but I'm pretty sure it is manageable. I think you may be moving the wrong cogs in the engine, though. Battles are not all about the skills, first of all - Firaga is not dynamic in itself, but you can find ways to make it dynamic (either by efficient skill combinations or modifying enemies' properties) instead of making all skills interact with each other and over-complexizing the whole system.
Dynanism isn't inherently good.
From the first post:
I'm taking the traditional RPG formula and building upon it, not making Hero's Realm/Generica/Hellion (although to be fair, Hellion is actually pretty modern; it's an early 2000s wRPG with NES jRPG flair ("NES jRPG HURTMORE?")).
My story and mapping are also beyond the NES; I have actual characters and an actual world (although FFIII's layered world reveals were great imo, but I only played FFIIIDS which is in pretty much every other way a terrible game).
I don't want to make a traditional game, I want to make a game in the vein of those games - my class system is very inspired by FFV, but I also don't want to clone it. I'm still an indie dev trying to be creative!
I'm going to repost this since it got pagesniped and it summarizes what I'm trying to do pretty well:
This is a merge of the past and present, not outright old-school. FIR3 and UPPER were never the plan here (...actually there's plain ol' Defense Up/UPPER, but the Bard class gets a skill that both applies DEF Up and cures some ailments).
lol semantics I guess (on both parts)
But I'm not trying to be nostalgic, and I'm not trying to be "oldschool."
I'm taking the traditional RPG formula and building upon it, not making Hero's Realm/Generica/Hellion (although to be fair, Hellion is actually pretty modern; it's an early 2000s wRPG with NES jRPG flair ("NES jRPG HURTMORE?")).
My story and mapping are also beyond the NES; I have actual characters and an actual world (although FFIII's layered world reveals were great imo, but I only played FFIIIDS which is in pretty much every other way a terrible game).
I don't want to make a traditional game, I want to make a game in the vein of those games - my class system is very inspired by FFV, but I also don't want to clone it. I'm still an indie dev trying to be creative!
I'm going to repost this since it got pagesniped and it summarizes what I'm trying to do pretty well:
Craze
LockeZ, that's exactly what I'm trying to do - the resource game. I'm including "gtfo out of this dungeon" items, and healing is only with items, so you had best stock up. Abilities are cheap, but you only have so much Energy based on your level <retcon: it's now static, but you can increase it via the storyline and by finding special items for each character (find chickens for Rebecca to eat and she'll gain +5 Max Energy)>, and you gotta make it last for the entire dungeon. <retcon: removed the bit about SP, it's very different now. Your basic attack, getting hit and spending Energy builds your WP (Weapon Points) that you use to execute advanced weapon techniques granted by your weapon. So, battles have both short-term and long-term resources to monitor/exploit.>
You could technically save-fuck yourself, but you have lots of slots and I'll probably have FFXII-style warnings for "hai guyz you probz shouldn't overwrite at this save point? kthnx." Save points will ONLY save your game, not heal you.
Basically, yeah, I'm trying to make a modern-but-traditional "clear out the dungeons a bit at a time" game.
This is a merge of the past and present, not outright old-school. FIR3 and UPPER were never the plan here (...actually there's plain ol' Defense Up/UPPER, but the Bard class gets a skill that both applies DEF Up and cures some ailments).
***
DE
You can't have a game without a narrative unless it's sheer abstraction (like backgammon, or checkers, or, to a somewhat lesser extent, chess). The moment you put a sprite of a human being on a map made of tiles, a narrative spontaneously springs up.
Craze
Re: Demon's Souls, it's oozing in atmosphere and setting quality. It doesn't need a strong narrative, the game has this awful (in the medieval sense) presence about it -
lol semantics I guess (on both parts)
