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RTP NPCS VS. CUSTOM NPCS VS. RIPPED NPCS
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flowerthief
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Closeauthor=LockeZ
If the ripped sprites look better than RTP, then this makes perfect sense. I don't care how original it is, I just care how good it is.
An attitude that would fail a categorical imperative, but one I've come to expect from a community obsessed with appearances (I don't mean just RMN but the entire Rpg Maker community). It pretty much encapsulates the difference between mindsets in Japan, where even hobbyists respect copyrights--and where one seems to find a disproportionately high number of talented artists--and mindsets everywhere else.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
The purpose of copyright law is to keep people from being able to distribute beautiful things unless they can make those things themselves from scratch.
Besides, damning an attitude because it's "obsessed with appearances" is stupid in a thread about which style of graphics looks better. There's no part of this argument that has to do with anything other than appearances. I don't personally think graphics are particularly important, BUT: if you want to make them as good as possible, and someone else is a better artist than you, you should use their stuff instead of your own. To use your own shitty stuff instead of someone else's good stuff is just pointless, destructive pride. It lowers the quality of your game, and by extension the quality of video games as a whole.
Besides, damning an attitude because it's "obsessed with appearances" is stupid in a thread about which style of graphics looks better. There's no part of this argument that has to do with anything other than appearances. I don't personally think graphics are particularly important, BUT: if you want to make them as good as possible, and someone else is a better artist than you, you should use their stuff instead of your own. To use your own shitty stuff instead of someone else's good stuff is just pointless, destructive pride. It lowers the quality of your game, and by extension the quality of video games as a whole.
It is not stupid to suggest that people care too much about appearances in a thread where the topic of using ripped sprites comes up with the only objection initially raised to it being lack of consistency. If you care about appearances to the point where you would use someone else's work illegally thinking that doing so makes you more professional, then you care about appearances too much.
I'm a big fan of using other people's work when you have permission to do so. And I'm not the wet panty you might think I am about casual users occassionally putting ripped materials in a non-commercial project it would be difficult to demonstrate does much harm to anyone. They know they're not being professional and shouldn't expect too much from the gaming world in the way of kudos and respect.
Except that in the microcosm that is the RM communities, they can expect more respect while the ones staying legal are pointlessly, destructively proud? Have we come to that? The amoral stance that the end result is all that matters no matter what things you had to do to reach it was one thing, but the assertion that you are lowering the quality of video games as a whole by not using someone else's work (without permission) is an attempt to rationalize it that I never would have guessed I'd hear.
I'm a big fan of using other people's work when you have permission to do so. And I'm not the wet panty you might think I am about casual users occassionally putting ripped materials in a non-commercial project it would be difficult to demonstrate does much harm to anyone. They know they're not being professional and shouldn't expect too much from the gaming world in the way of kudos and respect.
Except that in the microcosm that is the RM communities, they can expect more respect while the ones staying legal are pointlessly, destructively proud? Have we come to that? The amoral stance that the end result is all that matters no matter what things you had to do to reach it was one thing, but the assertion that you are lowering the quality of video games as a whole by not using someone else's work (without permission) is an attempt to rationalize it that I never would have guessed I'd hear.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
You say "no matter what things you had to do to reach it" like there's anything actually bad being done. But there's not, not that I can see. What's amoral, exactly, about spreading art freely?
I guess it depends what your end goal is in creating art, though. Are you doing it to make beauty, or are you doing it to make money? For me it's the former. If for other people it's the latter, then I certainly get where they're coming from - they're only human, so withholding beauty out of greed isn't unexpected - but I don't particularly feel any responsibility to uphold their wishes. I will spread beauty freely whether they like it or not; the world will be better as a result.
Surely hippie ideals aren't so foreign to you? It's not even like I'm applying them universally, I'm only applying them to corporations that hold copyrights on artwork, and aren't using that artwork or allowing anyone else to use it. Even the most hard-nosed free-market capitalist has to admit that under those circumstances, there's some justice in stealing the artwork from them to make a free game. Yeah, stealing is bad, but not giving this stuff away is worse.
I guess it depends what your end goal is in creating art, though. Are you doing it to make beauty, or are you doing it to make money? For me it's the former. If for other people it's the latter, then I certainly get where they're coming from - they're only human, so withholding beauty out of greed isn't unexpected - but I don't particularly feel any responsibility to uphold their wishes. I will spread beauty freely whether they like it or not; the world will be better as a result.
Surely hippie ideals aren't so foreign to you? It's not even like I'm applying them universally, I'm only applying them to corporations that hold copyrights on artwork, and aren't using that artwork or allowing anyone else to use it. Even the most hard-nosed free-market capitalist has to admit that under those circumstances, there's some justice in stealing the artwork from them to make a free game. Yeah, stealing is bad, but not giving this stuff away is worse.
Your hippie ideals seem to reject or ignore the effect that incentives play, the economic foundation for intellectual property and copyright law. The motivation for writers, painters, filmmakers, etc to produce original work weakens when you remove the compensation that you call "greed", but which they would call "putting food on the table".
Incentives exist even in a community such as ours consisting of people who have found enough motivation to produce original work without compensation (and where the output and level of quality of the work we produce is generally well below that of those who do it for pay, in case you need any evidence that people do respond to incentives). You would turn those incentives upside down, rewarding the guy who steals art from others over the guy who makes his own. Why give people this reason not to bother making original art? Why disincentivize the less skilled artist who is trying to improve? For some unfounded fear of lowering the quality of video games as a whole? What the hell impact does an Rpg Maker game that uses the RTP sprites that come with the package intended for hobbyists to make games with, or modifications thereof, even have on the quality of video games as a whole?
Do they? Between the materials that come with Rpg Maker, the materials nice people have distributed specifically for use in free games, and the relatively low amount of effort it takes to modify either, to say nothing of options available in the community such as requesting art or working in teams, not even the person who absolutely hates making art needs to steal art in order to make a free game.
Incentives exist even in a community such as ours consisting of people who have found enough motivation to produce original work without compensation (and where the output and level of quality of the work we produce is generally well below that of those who do it for pay, in case you need any evidence that people do respond to incentives). You would turn those incentives upside down, rewarding the guy who steals art from others over the guy who makes his own. Why give people this reason not to bother making original art? Why disincentivize the less skilled artist who is trying to improve? For some unfounded fear of lowering the quality of video games as a whole? What the hell impact does an Rpg Maker game that uses the RTP sprites that come with the package intended for hobbyists to make games with, or modifications thereof, even have on the quality of video games as a whole?
Even the most hard-nosed free-market capitalist has to admit that under those circumstances, there's some justice in stealing the artwork from them to make a free game.
Do they? Between the materials that come with Rpg Maker, the materials nice people have distributed specifically for use in free games, and the relatively low amount of effort it takes to modify either, to say nothing of options available in the community such as requesting art or working in teams, not even the person who absolutely hates making art needs to steal art in order to make a free game.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
The sprite artist for Chrono Trigger already got paid. Me using his stuff to create another game without asking him doesn't cause him to get paid any less. His incentive is still 100% intact.
Honestly, there's not much evidence that it even causes Square Enix's profits to drop. I'm not giving away Chrono Trigger! And if Square Enix were selling licenses to use Chrono Trigger's graphics for $150 per person, then that would be different (and fuck yes I'd buy them), but they're not selling them for any price. So what money are they even losing? In a year or two when they inevitably re-release Chrono Trigger on the iPhone with an unplayable touch screen interface, maybe a few more people will be like, "Man, that game was apparently good enough that people are still making fan games about it and using its graphics and music for other stuff. Maybe I should check it out."
Honestly, there's not much evidence that it even causes Square Enix's profits to drop. I'm not giving away Chrono Trigger! And if Square Enix were selling licenses to use Chrono Trigger's graphics for $150 per person, then that would be different (and fuck yes I'd buy them), but they're not selling them for any price. So what money are they even losing? In a year or two when they inevitably re-release Chrono Trigger on the iPhone with an unplayable touch screen interface, maybe a few more people will be like, "Man, that game was apparently good enough that people are still making fan games about it and using its graphics and music for other stuff. Maybe I should check it out."
Think about the effect of incentives on us. When you encourage people in the community to steal art, that serves as a disincentive for them to create original art. We wind up with less original art. And that's a shame because there are artists or would-be artists in the community with great potential (and some, of course, who are already amazing). When you say, "Your graphics are shitty. You should use someone else's whether or not you have their permission" you are discouraging the behavior of working at a skill to get better and encouraging the lazy behavior of illegally ripping art from existing games, among other things a bad habit to get into for anyone wishing eventually to expand their horizons outside the Rpg Maker community. There's no reason to do that. There are already so many legitimate ways to make a game.
I don't know if the chicken came before the egg or if chicken-egg order even matters, but when I look at Japan I see lots and lots of people making their own art and lots and lots of people respecting copyrights. It's no coincidence that a hefty portion of the art we use in our games, both legally and illegally, comes from them. Should we be more like Japan? Or should we be more like China?
I don't know if the chicken came before the egg or if chicken-egg order even matters, but when I look at Japan I see lots and lots of people making their own art and lots and lots of people respecting copyrights. It's no coincidence that a hefty portion of the art we use in our games, both legally and illegally, comes from them. Should we be more like Japan? Or should we be more like China?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Indie games out of Japan are all hentai games, that is the only reason they have original art.
Personally, I used other people's graphics until I had enough experience utilizing them that I knew what worked and what didn't, and then I started slowly making more and more of my own to mix in with what I'd downloaded. If I'd been told up front that my choices were RTP or original, I have to wonder if I'd have simply given up in despair. Since RTP is so bad that it's basically not even a choice.
I guess these days there are some nice-looking sets of freeware graphics though, that people have made for RPG Maker and then publically released. Best of both worlds?
Personally, I used other people's graphics until I had enough experience utilizing them that I knew what worked and what didn't, and then I started slowly making more and more of my own to mix in with what I'd downloaded. If I'd been told up front that my choices were RTP or original, I have to wonder if I'd have simply given up in despair. Since RTP is so bad that it's basically not even a choice.
I guess these days there are some nice-looking sets of freeware graphics though, that people have made for RPG Maker and then publically released. Best of both worlds?
eplipswich
2728
author=LockeZ
Indie games out of Japan are all hentai games, that is the only reason they have original art.
This statement is either just wrong or over-exaggerated. Have you actually played the non-hentai Japanese indie games for once? I don't think you did.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
It was simply a joke. (A joke that is also completely true)
No but seriously I've played a few. But in general I assume that just because thousands of mediocre Japanese games made from Castlevania rips didn't make it across the ocean doesn't mean those games don't exist.
No but seriously I've played a few. But in general I assume that just because thousands of mediocre Japanese games made from Castlevania rips didn't make it across the ocean doesn't mean those games don't exist.
author=eplipswichHonestly, some of those eroges (not talking just about indies) have plots, characters, art, and music that'd completely blow away mainstream game franchises like Final Fantasy and Tales Of.author=LockeZThis statement is either just wrong or over-exaggerated. Have you actually played the non-hentai Japanese indie games for once? I don't think you did.
Indie games out of Japan are all hentai games, that is the only reason they have original art.
Yes, I'm looking at you 11eyes, Tears to Tiara, Castle Fantasia 2 Renewal, Wind of Ebenbourg, and Fate/Stay-Night (and countless more).
EDIT: As for the topic at hand, I don't mind if the NPC's RTP, ripped, or custom as long as it fits and looks nice.
If there are thousands of mediocre games made from Castlevania rips across the ocean, I'd like to know where, because that might mean they play like Castlevania, in which case I'd probably enjoy them. So far in the fair amount of time I've spent poking around the J-web I've not seen that. It's rare to even see something akin to I Wanna Be the Guy, which is one of the few rip-happy games I'd say a hard-nosed free-market capitalist would have to admit justifies itself, because it's just that awesome. But as far as I can tell they really do a good job of respecting copyrights over there.
About RTP looking bad...it looks bad to us only because we've seen so much of it; another symptom of being in the community too long.
About RTP looking bad...it looks bad to us only because we've seen so much of it; another symptom of being in the community too long.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
For some parts of it that's true. For VX charsets, 2K3 tilesets, and spell animations in every version of RPG maker, I hated them from the first moment I saw them. I also hate RTP music, although there is so much creative commons licensed free music out there that it's irrelevant, and honestly I'm not sure I've ever played a game with RTP music except for maybe one or two songs.
Btw, playing Fate/Stay Night for anything other than the plot is bound to disappoint 'cause there is far far far more plot than hentai in that very long thing. You might not even remember that there was hentai at all if the plot hadn't managed to contrive itself in some rather funny ways in order to fit it in.
