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Feldschlacht IV
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CloseAh, I see what you mean now.
But that makes balance come to mind. While I don't want all battles to be long, grueling epics of attrition, I definitely don't want to make battles consist of "Spam attack/strongest skill". I want to go for a balance; make the player think. Yes, some enemies you'd do best to defeat before they use a deadly skill or call for reinforcements, and others are you'll want to be more on the defensive, heal, and chip away at their weaknesses. I want that healthy balance, that way, every class has a chance to shine instead of favoring one over the other.
(Also, you're new; welcome! You seem like a really cool dude, hope you stick around.)
But that makes balance come to mind. While I don't want all battles to be long, grueling epics of attrition, I definitely don't want to make battles consist of "Spam attack/strongest skill". I want to go for a balance; make the player think. Yes, some enemies you'd do best to defeat before they use a deadly skill or call for reinforcements, and others are you'll want to be more on the defensive, heal, and chip away at their weaknesses. I want that healthy balance, that way, every class has a chance to shine instead of favoring one over the other.
(Also, you're new; welcome! You seem like a really cool dude, hope you stick around.)
What if it's a good thing to have some long, drawn-out battles? Not only have, but make the player want to have drawn out battles? I think the only way the Tank is going to get better (in average RPG's to date) is to implement different styles of classification and abilities. Take static abilities, ones that you don't have to use to see an effect, ones that are active constantly, and give them a real use. Most to date are useful in their own right, but are more often than not simple things- using an antidote when you get hit with poison. I'm talking specific.
Make a static ability that allows you to gain a very small amount of exp for every hit the tank takes in a row past the first. Or make his counter-attack rate go up a small percentage instead. This, I think, would make the player want to stay around in a fight long enough to see good effect. These type of abilities don't have to be limited to just the Tank, either. A speedy-type character can get such things as 'Attacks taken before the enemy deal less damage, but evasion rate for the turn increases'. The best thing to do with a system like this is what they did in BoFIII, where only one person can have that ability at one time, but be tradeable.
Make a static ability that allows you to gain a very small amount of exp for every hit the tank takes in a row past the first. Or make his counter-attack rate go up a small percentage instead. This, I think, would make the player want to stay around in a fight long enough to see good effect. These type of abilities don't have to be limited to just the Tank, either. A speedy-type character can get such things as 'Attacks taken before the enemy deal less damage, but evasion rate for the turn increases'. The best thing to do with a system like this is what they did in BoFIII, where only one person can have that ability at one time, but be tradeable.
Yes, a tank with a cover ability with a counter strike or Limit Break would be pretty cool. You'd want him to get hit, because then it's an extra attack/super attack!
Jabbo
140
Here's a random thought: In practice, is there any way to make a Tank class actually absorb most of the damage without explicitly forcing it (like "Oh you can't attack the back lines if the Tank's alive" or "Enemies have a higher probability of attacking the Tank!" )? I guess it would probably be harder to pull off in a traditional RPG setup than say an active battle or grid-based strategic battle system. Maybe like a skill where he has a chance of guarding an enemy attack. Although I guess that would sort of be forcing it too.. maybe everything in a traditional battle system is forced by default. A skill that actually just redirects 50% of the damage to everyone else onto the Tank? I don't know, just a thought.
Shadowtext
120
It sort of relies on controlling character positions, but trying to get around a Fighter in Dungeons and Dragons provokes Attack of Opportunity, which is basically like a counterattack even though the fighter isn't actually attacked. Really you get AoOs in any class, but Fighters are some of the best at exploiting it, especially in fourth edition. It's a big part of what makes them the quintessential Defender (D&D 4's name for tanks).
That's an idea to explore: an ability that causes the tank to get a free attack if anyone other than himself (or maybe anyone other than himself and other tanks) is attacked. Though come to think, having TWO tanks in your party would probably be pretty devastating if they had any attack power to speak of if you did that. This also serves to make the old standby tactic of "Kill the squishy mages first" totally bad news.
Also, look at Celes's Runic command in FF6, which made her essentially an anti-magic tank. I mean okay, in that case it's actually pretty useless for most of the game because it interferes with your own magic (and you're wasting a turn Celes could be using to kill things), but the concept is another starting point for Tank-type abilities.
That's an idea to explore: an ability that causes the tank to get a free attack if anyone other than himself (or maybe anyone other than himself and other tanks) is attacked. Though come to think, having TWO tanks in your party would probably be pretty devastating if they had any attack power to speak of if you did that. This also serves to make the old standby tactic of "Kill the squishy mages first" totally bad news.
Also, look at Celes's Runic command in FF6, which made her essentially an anti-magic tank. I mean okay, in that case it's actually pretty useless for most of the game because it interferes with your own magic (and you're wasting a turn Celes could be using to kill things), but the concept is another starting point for Tank-type abilities.
The best Fighter trips enemies instead of attackign during an Attack of Opportunity, aka AoO, (unless its some quadpedal, large, high strength monster). It negates the enmies attack (their move ends when they're tripped, and I think they lose their action for the turn too) so they can't hit the fleshy and flimsy mages. And then they're flatfooted by being prone, which makes them lose their Dex bonus to AC making them easier to hit (generally, if their Dex sucks they don't get a bonus to begin with) and when they waste their move action on the next turn they draw another attack of opportunity which can be used to hit them (they're still prone during the AoO so you can't trip them again).
That is a fantastic tank in my mind. There's no 'draw aggro' magic which makes everyone want to target him. Instead its because of other abilities that if enemies don't, they're screwing themselves over. So they'll have to find other ways to hit the weak mages (ranged attack for example) or kill the fighter first (or just resist the trip). The only flaw really is that the fighter can give only so many AoO a turn.
It'd be fantastic if something like this could be implemented with proper enemy AI so they don't random keep drawing AoO and figure out to kill the fighter.
(My fighter like this rocked. He was always on the front line completely messing with the enemies trying to move around and actually hit stuff. He also had a reach weapon so just to hit him with a non-reach melee weapon usually drew a AoO. Everybody loved him until the Wizard learnt the kick ass spells and could fend for himself.)
Offtopic: I had ideas about trying to implement a kind of AoO in a game. Similar mechanic: When the battle reaches a certain state, characters with appropriate skills can take a turn right then and there. Not just enemies leaving your threatened zone and you can take an attack action, but something like "A Character reaches critical HP status", then a healer can immediately take their turn (even if it isn't their turn yet) to do something, like heal. Taking an action there would have a cost and its something I'm still fiddling with.
I really like the D&D mechanics. They're so fun and different than what I'm used to.
That is a fantastic tank in my mind. There's no 'draw aggro' magic which makes everyone want to target him. Instead its because of other abilities that if enemies don't, they're screwing themselves over. So they'll have to find other ways to hit the weak mages (ranged attack for example) or kill the fighter first (or just resist the trip). The only flaw really is that the fighter can give only so many AoO a turn.
It'd be fantastic if something like this could be implemented with proper enemy AI so they don't random keep drawing AoO and figure out to kill the fighter.
(My fighter like this rocked. He was always on the front line completely messing with the enemies trying to move around and actually hit stuff. He also had a reach weapon so just to hit him with a non-reach melee weapon usually drew a AoO. Everybody loved him until the Wizard learnt the kick ass spells and could fend for himself.)
Offtopic: I had ideas about trying to implement a kind of AoO in a game. Similar mechanic: When the battle reaches a certain state, characters with appropriate skills can take a turn right then and there. Not just enemies leaving your threatened zone and you can take an attack action, but something like "A Character reaches critical HP status", then a healer can immediately take their turn (even if it isn't their turn yet) to do something, like heal. Taking an action there would have a cost and its something I'm still fiddling with.
I really like the D&D mechanics. They're so fun and different than what I'm used to.
Shadowtext
120
author=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=1189.msg19874#msg19874 date=1213326904I'm not that familiar with rogue rules, but wouldn't that also make them super-susceptible to Sneak Attack?
And then they're flatfooted by being prone, which makes them lose their Dex bonus to AC making them easier to hit
Because if so, having a tank that NOT ONLY stops the enemy from being able to attack your mages, but makes it so your Striker can STAB THE HELL OUT OF THEM is pretty sweet.
I'm actually trying to modify D&D (3.5e, I'm not rich enough for your fancy 4e books) to work for VX, and due to the low-HP nature of the game I am using an invisible stat that is basically "R U TANK Y/N" (for you scripters out there, I'm playing with the "odds" parameter that is usually affected by the class position attribute but I hacked that in favor of a plain, mallable stat). DRDs, BRDs and ROGs have their odds of getting targeted decreased as they level, as do halflings at L1. FTRs, BBNs and PALs get their odds increased, so they are the effective tanks in a party. WIZs and SORs are the characters that actually need decreased odds, but if you have an all-magic party you're pretty much screwed anyway.
I am thinking about making it so that a BBN's rage dramatically lowers their odds because they are going APESHIT CRAZY but if you are using a BBN for a tank... yeah.
Basically my tanks are either HEAVY HP/DMG DEALERS, BALANCED DAMAGE DEALERS, or HEALING DAMAGE DEALERS. It would make sense to make a party out of nothing but FTR/BBN/PAL except that a lot of emphasis is put on OOB stats and skills that tanks do not have (except a PAL's very decent CHA for social situations), so that is my method of balancing tanks. They take damage well, but FTRs aren't going to help you run through a prickly thicket at full speed while being chased by a bugbear colony (hi DRD/RGR)!
I am thinking about making it so that a BBN's rage dramatically lowers their odds because they are going APESHIT CRAZY but if you are using a BBN for a tank... yeah.
Basically my tanks are either HEAVY HP/DMG DEALERS, BALANCED DAMAGE DEALERS, or HEALING DAMAGE DEALERS. It would make sense to make a party out of nothing but FTR/BBN/PAL except that a lot of emphasis is put on OOB stats and skills that tanks do not have (except a PAL's very decent CHA for social situations), so that is my method of balancing tanks. They take damage well, but FTRs aren't going to help you run through a prickly thicket at full speed while being chased by a bugbear colony (hi DRD/RGR)!
author=Shadowtext link=topic=1189.msg19909#msg19909 date=1213371229
I'm not that familiar with rogue rules, but wouldn't that also make them super-susceptible to Sneak Attack?
Because if so, having a tank that NOT ONLY stops the enemy from being able to attack your mages, but makes it so your Striker can STAB THE HELL OUT OF THEM is pretty sweet.
I forgot about that; You can sneak attack any enemy (that isn't immune to critical hits) whenever they'd be denied their dexterity bonus. Too bad the party didn't have any Rogues in it.
Craze: That sounds pretty sweet. Good luck with it!
One solution my D&D group had for the low HP aspect of the game was the HP on your first level was quadrupled. It helped with being able to play on the first level and not have to worry about anybody with a half decent weapon rolling high on damage (or someone actually lands a crit, that usually kills anyone on low levels). The wizard really liked it with his flimsy d4 hitdie; 16 HP goes a lot farther than 4 should anything bad happen.
That's a pretty neat idea... when I play SOR, I am almost always a Human for the bonus feat (Toughness + Eschew Components (NGSLGNSLDNVLSDVNJLSDVLSDLJ I hate components)). I might just use that in the VX version, especially since I made AC a little less useful. We'll see!
MODIFY: added more to the post
MODIFY: added more to the post
Argh, spell components. Everytime we played, everybody had Eschew Components for free for less of a headache. Its too much bloody micromanagement.
It's not so bad if you have a DM that is like "hey just replenish your pack for 5sp/cantrip, 15sp/L1spell, 2g/L2spell..." But when the DM is like "wat u want 2 cast fox's cunning??? u need to go RP a trip to the forest and roll a DC30 spot check 2 find fox poop and try not to get ambushed by goblins"
Anyway, I think I am going to include spell components to let spellcasters cast OOB spells like Knock and Charm Person. We'll see... but this is derailing the topic kind of so let's talk about tanks and high STR scores~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okay so one of the guild members (all PCs are pre-generated in my game) is a half-orc SOR. She has an extra HP point at L1 and can actually do some damage with her quarterstaff (h-holy fox poop). Since I replaced ONCE/DAY stuff with all characters having an ENergy supply, and I gave half-orc an EN bonus, she's actually the best long-dungeon SOR despite her lower CHA than the other SOR. Oh and her name is Ownka so she wins anyway.
kentona: What the Hell?
Anyway, I think I am going to include spell components to let spellcasters cast OOB spells like Knock and Charm Person. We'll see... but this is derailing the topic kind of so let's talk about tanks and high STR scores~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okay so one of the guild members (all PCs are pre-generated in my game) is a half-orc SOR. She has an extra HP point at L1 and can actually do some damage with her quarterstaff (h-holy fox poop). Since I replaced ONCE/DAY stuff with all characters having an ENergy supply, and I gave half-orc an EN bonus, she's actually the best long-dungeon SOR despite her lower CHA than the other SOR. Oh and her name is Ownka so she wins anyway.
kentona: What the Hell?
S. F. LaValle
1069
Sorry to get back on topic, but I think everyone's touched on some good ideas. I've had similar ones myself, since we're going into specifics, although I'm sure many other methods can be derived that works in tune with everyone's own battle system.
I have multiple tanks planned for my game (10 playable characters), and others with scattered damage-mitigating abilities. One tank is purely physical damage reduction, and his abilities include your typical taunt to force attacks on him, and abilities to reduce that damage. He also has, mentioned earlier, a passive ability that will allow him to intercept any physical-type attack intended for an ally standing behind him in rank (my battle system utilizes two 3x3 grids that can be freely moved around; one for enemies and one for allies). If his tanking abilities are not needed, then he can switch to a different ability set (can be done in battle) that focuses on attack rather than defense.
Another tank uses a main gauche instead of a shield, and when his ability set is focused on defense, he has a high parry rate and the ability to "engage" multiple enemies. When these enemies are engaged with him, and they attempt to attack another player, this tank will get a free attack just like the AoO's you mentioned above, and the chance to prevent that attack from ever taking place. Another ability he has is to anticipate attacks and call them out to their intended targets, giving allies a higher chance to dodge, parry, or take less damage.
The two above are meant to be different types of physical damage tanks; one is good for protecting allies that remain in the back row, while the other tank helps allies that need to stay up front. I also have a character that tanks magic, just like Celes's runic ability, but more refined. This character can call out the target of an enemy's magic attack and the type of element being cast by the enemy. He can put up his own barrier to nullify enemy magical attacks (but probably not all-encompassing like Runic, I'll likely require that a barrier of an element strong against the casted element be used to nullify the damage). Also available are abilities to slow down an enemy's cast and later, interrupt it entirely.
These are just models that befit a battle system that I'm designing. Bottom line is, if you can't think of a way to make a tank useful in your battle system, don't make 'em. If you can make a tank, and want them to have a primary job as damage mitigation, then your enemies had better put out damage that requires mitigating. If there are times when tanking is useless, make that character useful in some other way. That consolidates a lot of info posted in this thread =)
I have multiple tanks planned for my game (10 playable characters), and others with scattered damage-mitigating abilities. One tank is purely physical damage reduction, and his abilities include your typical taunt to force attacks on him, and abilities to reduce that damage. He also has, mentioned earlier, a passive ability that will allow him to intercept any physical-type attack intended for an ally standing behind him in rank (my battle system utilizes two 3x3 grids that can be freely moved around; one for enemies and one for allies). If his tanking abilities are not needed, then he can switch to a different ability set (can be done in battle) that focuses on attack rather than defense.
Another tank uses a main gauche instead of a shield, and when his ability set is focused on defense, he has a high parry rate and the ability to "engage" multiple enemies. When these enemies are engaged with him, and they attempt to attack another player, this tank will get a free attack just like the AoO's you mentioned above, and the chance to prevent that attack from ever taking place. Another ability he has is to anticipate attacks and call them out to their intended targets, giving allies a higher chance to dodge, parry, or take less damage.
The two above are meant to be different types of physical damage tanks; one is good for protecting allies that remain in the back row, while the other tank helps allies that need to stay up front. I also have a character that tanks magic, just like Celes's runic ability, but more refined. This character can call out the target of an enemy's magic attack and the type of element being cast by the enemy. He can put up his own barrier to nullify enemy magical attacks (but probably not all-encompassing like Runic, I'll likely require that a barrier of an element strong against the casted element be used to nullify the damage). Also available are abilities to slow down an enemy's cast and later, interrupt it entirely.
These are just models that befit a battle system that I'm designing. Bottom line is, if you can't think of a way to make a tank useful in your battle system, don't make 'em. If you can make a tank, and want them to have a primary job as damage mitigation, then your enemies had better put out damage that requires mitigating. If there are times when tanking is useless, make that character useful in some other way. That consolidates a lot of info posted in this thread =)
Jabbo
140
Am I the only one who's considered having a female tank character?
Anyway, with the AoO stuff and all these skills, this is leaning towards actually making battles strategic! I don't think I've ever played a game where trying to be strategic was as effective as bashing the hell out of everything.
Also, from a technical game design perspective, I hate navigating menus. So please please if ever possible include a hotkey option for battles so that I can set two or three specific actions to keys. That way I can still jam on the key to get through the battle, AND I can actually set up a strategy while doing so. It's not that I mind how long the battle lasts, it's just that I hate menus. With hotkeys, it's the best of both worlds.
Anyway, with the AoO stuff and all these skills, this is leaning towards actually making battles strategic! I don't think I've ever played a game where trying to be strategic was as effective as bashing the hell out of everything.
Also, from a technical game design perspective, I hate navigating menus. So please please if ever possible include a hotkey option for battles so that I can set two or three specific actions to keys. That way I can still jam on the key to get through the battle, AND I can actually set up a strategy while doing so. It's not that I mind how long the battle lasts, it's just that I hate menus. With hotkeys, it's the best of both worlds.
Tanks, by their nature, are built to take damage and be slow. Slowness is often an enormous factor in games, but if you were to give the tank an initial attack, and then a slow recovery, the tank will be much less of a burden during quick battles. After all, it is mostly in long dredging battles that tanks get use. If you want to make things even more interesting, give the tank a type advantage of some sort.
