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Posts
Archeia_Nessiah
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CloseI don't understand why your disappearance was something that affected the project massively, if it is what you said, the art assets aren't done, the engine isn't ready, there's not much work that needs to be done yet in terms of music.
What happened to the money aside from Sabrina and Matt and Psy_wombats?
Was there something is stopping them from modifying the current assets and create new things in it? etc.
Why not do things episodically and slowly release it? I'm pretty sure there is a pixel artist out there that is as good provided the vision of the developer coincides with the artist.
Ah well :x
What happened to the money aside from Sabrina and Matt and Psy_wombats?
Was there something is stopping them from modifying the current assets and create new things in it? etc.
Why not do things episodically and slowly release it? I'm pretty sure there is a pixel artist out there that is as good provided the vision of the developer coincides with the artist.
Ah well :x
This only goes to show that Ghost does not a good director make. You don't wait for all the assets before coding in events and dialogue, you work off placeholders and have the artists do their thing concurrently. What you DO need is the engine, and by all accounts, the engine for Rainfall is far from finished. The engine should've been nearing completion before the KS campaign was launched to begin with.
It seems amateur game designers underestimate the amount of work that goes into the game once all assets and paperwork are done. You don't just sit on your rear, waiting for the artists to turn in sprites and tiles, you type in scenes, fine-tune the difficulty, put together maps (from colored blocks, if need be), this sort of stuff. Even if he had the engine and assets done already, it'd be at least half a year before the game is ready.
@Happy - if you've never been a game lead, I could see how it would seem that way. But trust me, it's like getting blood out of a stone.
It seems amateur game designers underestimate the amount of work that goes into the game once all assets and paperwork are done. You don't just sit on your rear, waiting for the artists to turn in sprites and tiles, you type in scenes, fine-tune the difficulty, put together maps (from colored blocks, if need be), this sort of stuff. Even if he had the engine and assets done already, it'd be at least half a year before the game is ready.
@Happy - if you've never been a game lead, I could see how it would seem that way. But trust me, it's like getting blood out of a stone.
RyaReisender
200
Yeah, it's not THAT easy to replace composers or artists, especially if don't pay them full time. I never made profit projects, but many of my "free just for fun" projects got cancelled because the artist or composer quit (usually the artist).
Plus if you started with the game and you replace composer or artist midway the change of art and music style is noticable and that would make me feel uncomfortable because I'm kind of a perfectionist and everything needs to fit.
Plus if you started with the game and you replace composer or artist midway the change of art and music style is noticable and that would make me feel uncomfortable because I'm kind of a perfectionist and everything needs to fit.
ubon
66
author=RyaReisender
Yeah, it's not THAT easy to replace composers or artists, especially if don't pay them full time. I never made profit projects, but many of my "free just for fun" projects got cancelled because the artist or composer quit (usually the artist).
Plus if you started with the game and you replace composer or artist midway the change of art and music style is noticable and that would make me feel uncomfortable because I'm kind of a perfectionist and everything needs to fit.
here's the thing -- in a typical game development workflow, the art and sound assets are typically not finalized until the very last stretch. there will be small patches of relatively complete content for the purposes of promotional material, but besides that there's literally nothing keeping a developer from using placeholders until the last few weeks.
acting as though a project couldn't be completed at such an early point because the staff in charge of the game's assets weren't on board is ridiculous, and frankly it's more than a little suspicious. Ghost seems as though he's trying to deflect blame to a large degree, and unless those nineteen thousand dollars get refunded (since he apparently hasn't been paying his composer I'm sure most of it will still be intact and not hidden under Ghost's mattress, right?) I think I'm going to call this a sketchy situation. and that's being generous.
also it's worth reiterating that from the composer's account, the departure of the game's asset creators is largely due to mismanagement on Ghost's part. how the fuck can anyone expect a human being with a mouth and a stomach to stay exclusive on literally no pay through months of no communication?
ubon
66
like, I can't even get over this
who gets four times their starting budget and doesn't even pay at least one of their teammates up front so they can eat and stuff
find me any professional anywhere who would blame RoeTaKa for bailing on this project for a better one when they were literally not being paid and their communication from the project lead was spotty at best. those are signs of exploitation (and a sinking ship more often than not)
I'm not a backer so I can't speak for Ghost's wording, but trying to lay the blame on his staff is disingenuous and frankly disgusting if this is at all indicative of the conditions they had to work with. contractors are not in any way obligated to make sacrifices for the sake of your own dream.
who gets four times their starting budget and doesn't even pay at least one of their teammates up front so they can eat and stuff
find me any professional anywhere who would blame RoeTaKa for bailing on this project for a better one when they were literally not being paid and their communication from the project lead was spotty at best. those are signs of exploitation (and a sinking ship more often than not)
I'm not a backer so I can't speak for Ghost's wording, but trying to lay the blame on his staff is disingenuous and frankly disgusting if this is at all indicative of the conditions they had to work with. contractors are not in any way obligated to make sacrifices for the sake of your own dream.
Ghost
787
@Skie
Thanks a lot.
@mawk
I'm not going to comment any further in this topic, however I'd like to say one thing.
That's not what occurred. Alex knows what occurred with anything regarding pay and there were agreements throughout. Unfortunately, things did not work out between me and him. I'll simply leave it at that. If you think I withheld money from him then I'll tell you that's simply not true. That's the only reason why I am posting here.
I'd like to also say that it isn't my intention to drag anyone's professional name down over a videogame. I expressed everything that occurred because it was simply the right thing to do. I tried to express the events without throwing dirt on anyone as well. I made it perfectly clear that everyone involved are talented individuals and there's nothing I can say that can take that away.
It wasn't my intention to even remotely try to hurt anyone's career. But I will say that you're current impression is wrong and honestly I don't want to sit down and play the blame game. If anything, I blame myself most.
Alex wanted to express his thoughts and I totally get that. He's a good composer and I wish him the best.
@DE
Your post is pretty sensible and I agree with a lot of what you had to say.
Thanks a lot.
@mawk
I'm not going to comment any further in this topic, however I'd like to say one thing.
That's not what occurred. Alex knows what occurred with anything regarding pay and there were agreements throughout. Unfortunately, things did not work out between me and him. I'll simply leave it at that. If you think I withheld money from him then I'll tell you that's simply not true. That's the only reason why I am posting here.
I'd like to also say that it isn't my intention to drag anyone's professional name down over a videogame. I expressed everything that occurred because it was simply the right thing to do. I tried to express the events without throwing dirt on anyone as well. I made it perfectly clear that everyone involved are talented individuals and there's nothing I can say that can take that away.
It wasn't my intention to even remotely try to hurt anyone's career. But I will say that you're current impression is wrong and honestly I don't want to sit down and play the blame game. If anything, I blame myself most.
Alex wanted to express his thoughts and I totally get that. He's a good composer and I wish him the best.
@DE
Your post is pretty sensible and I agree with a lot of what you had to say.
ubon
66
I hope you'll understand if I don't exactly trust a vague 'that's not what happened, but I'm not going to go into detail'.
p.s. here's the full text of the backer post, if anyone is curious. there does seem to be an amount of dirt-throwing!
p.s. here's the full text of the backer post, if anyone is curious. there does seem to be an amount of dirt-throwing!
ubon
66
I do think he's telling certain lies and was massively immature in how he treated Alex in his backer-only post, but from the full account I dunno if he's necessarily taken the money and run. the backer post mentions that he did pay at least one of his graphics people, so it's likely that it's not all there anymore. who knows where the remainder is, though?
I'm not sure if there's a particular legal obligation at this point, but it'd be worth looking into.
I'm not sure if there's a particular legal obligation at this point, but it'd be worth looking into.
From my point of view, this seems more like a project management failure than anything else.
I've only done game development in a team once before (for a tiny Android game no one's heard of), but I have enough experience with modern development methodologies to know that this project could have benefit from Agile development practices (Scrum to be specific).
Scrum emphasises the importance of some semblance of a completed feature (even at the expense of other features) at the end of every sprint (basically a stage), which would pay off dividends for a Kickstarter project where backers are interested in seeing something - anything - that implies their investment paid off. The flexible approach and daily 15-minute meetings also ensure that everybody's on-track and aware of changes that need to be made - possibly avoiding problems like these.
It's always a shame to see amateur game development teams crumble like this, but I see no reasons for such teams to not organise themselves in a more professional manner - especially when so much money's at stake.
I've only done game development in a team once before (for a tiny Android game no one's heard of), but I have enough experience with modern development methodologies to know that this project could have benefit from Agile development practices (Scrum to be specific).
Scrum emphasises the importance of some semblance of a completed feature (even at the expense of other features) at the end of every sprint (basically a stage), which would pay off dividends for a Kickstarter project where backers are interested in seeing something - anything - that implies their investment paid off. The flexible approach and daily 15-minute meetings also ensure that everybody's on-track and aware of changes that need to be made - possibly avoiding problems like these.
It's always a shame to see amateur game development teams crumble like this, but I see no reasons for such teams to not organise themselves in a more professional manner - especially when so much money's at stake.
ubon
66
yeah, I think if it gets to the point where you're fabricating screenshots completely you might have to admit to yourself that it wouldn't be responsible to promise anything via Kickstarter yet.
Aside from mismanagement, the other big mistake Ghost made from the outset was assuming that he could make an entire Squaresoft-quality JRPG from scratch with only $6,000. The scope of the project was an order of magnitude higher than the budget he set for it.
This isn't exactly his fault, because it seems like no one who hasn't made a commercial game before has any idea just how much it costs to produce a professional-quality product. I distinctly remember being mocked here for claiming that producing a decent-length 2D RPG with professional-quality graphics would cost $20,000.
That line of thinking is totally delusional. If anyone is thinking about making a commercial game or running a Kickstarter and wants a reality check on what kind of budget they'll need to make their game, feel free to hit me up and I can estimate some figures for you and give you tips on how to cut back while still preserving your vision.
This isn't exactly his fault, because it seems like no one who hasn't made a commercial game before has any idea just how much it costs to produce a professional-quality product. I distinctly remember being mocked here for claiming that producing a decent-length 2D RPG with professional-quality graphics would cost $20,000.
That line of thinking is totally delusional. If anyone is thinking about making a commercial game or running a Kickstarter and wants a reality check on what kind of budget they'll need to make their game, feel free to hit me up and I can estimate some figures for you and give you tips on how to cut back while still preserving your vision.
Perihelion
665
Although I feel bad for Ghost and the backers, I can't understand why anyone would have pledged to the project in the first place. I totally believe that Ghost's heart was in the right place and he put a lot of passion into the project, but it was a huge mistake to run a KS without more experience. I would have been shocked if the game had come out. There were so many red flags. Not only has Ghost never finished a game of comparable scope, but there was basically no progress on development to show at the time of the KS, and they were planning on making their own engine. That alone could have easily added a year to development time and produced a buggy, subpar result--if it ever got done at all. Not only that, but the programmer wasn't even the project lead. Was he even being paid? What would Ghost have done if he had flaked?
Even setting the engine aside, though, asking for only $6000 to make an entire SNES-style RPG of professional quality is simply ludicrous. If I'd been thinking about backing the project, I would have changed my mind immediately upon seeing the goal. Even if you can find a pixel artist who's willing to do it for that cheap, it's so little money relative to the amount of work that you're basically depending on their passion to finish the project rather than any financial incentive. Decent pixel art costs at least $20-30/hr professionally, and if you pay someone significantly less than professional rates, you shouldn't expect them to be reliable or prioritize your project. They have to eat, you know. Granted, the artist should never have agreed in the first place if that was going to be the case, but this shouldn't be a surprising outcome.
It sucks because it's clear Ghost was really invested in the project, and it sucks that the backers lost their money, but no one should be surprised. Kickstarter is NOT a foolproof preorder system, and you cannot give people money without examining their qualifications and realistically evaluating whether they can finish the project.
Even setting the engine aside, though, asking for only $6000 to make an entire SNES-style RPG of professional quality is simply ludicrous. If I'd been thinking about backing the project, I would have changed my mind immediately upon seeing the goal. Even if you can find a pixel artist who's willing to do it for that cheap, it's so little money relative to the amount of work that you're basically depending on their passion to finish the project rather than any financial incentive. Decent pixel art costs at least $20-30/hr professionally, and if you pay someone significantly less than professional rates, you shouldn't expect them to be reliable or prioritize your project. They have to eat, you know. Granted, the artist should never have agreed in the first place if that was going to be the case, but this shouldn't be a surprising outcome.
It sucks because it's clear Ghost was really invested in the project, and it sucks that the backers lost their money, but no one should be surprised. Kickstarter is NOT a foolproof preorder system, and you cannot give people money without examining their qualifications and realistically evaluating whether they can finish the project.
author=Perihelion
Although I feel bad for Ghost and the backers, I can't understand why anyone would have pledged to the project in the first place.
As I mentioned way earlier in the thread, this kind of development process is epidemic in the RM community, especially from back in the GW era. "Developers" would make mock-ups of unbelievably ambitious game design elements, like unique combat systems, art assets and the like, and then release it to the masses to hype it up. Everyone declares that it's awesome ,they can't wait to play it, it's phenomenal, but the creator is seriously underestimating how hard it would actually be to make the game do those things. Ninety-nine in a hundred of those projects never even see a playable release with even a minute of actual content. And often, the creator vanishes without a trace, leaving people to wonder what could have been.
The Rainfall Kickstarter is the ultimate culmination of that mindset; get people fired up over content you haven't actually made yet, and don't know how to make, and probably can't realistically make in any reasonable timeframe. It's hype artistry propped up by cardboard and wishful thinking. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can look back at the Gaming World era as some kind of golden age instead of the cesspool of charlatanism that it actually was, much less actually build up a commercial project and ask people for thousands of dollars based on a business model with such a poor success rate.
I don't doubt Ghost genuinely wanted to make this game and make it great but he must have seen this kind of thing happen dozens of times and really should have known better.
RyaReisender
200
@mawk
I personally like to have at the very least graphics done before I start development. Especially for things like maptiles, the whole process of map design depends on the graphics you have available.
Also $19000 isn't a lot of money. Even if Ghost hadn't paid anyone, this is like the bare minimum for one person to survive a year.
I personally like to have at the very least graphics done before I start development. Especially for things like maptiles, the whole process of map design depends on the graphics you have available.
Also $19000 isn't a lot of money. Even if Ghost hadn't paid anyone, this is like the bare minimum for one person to survive a year.
I've found that asset creation is the #1 drag on a project. "Asset" not only being the audiovisual component, but the programming component for manifold modules like magic spells, different weapons, and different characters' special abilities.
Instances like this cancelled Kickstarter project are why I espouse project introduction to the public late in development.
Although, with Kickstarter, the whole point is to have money to be able to get to a point late in development. For people who make all of their own assets, where should the line be drawn? The only component that requires pay is the time to work, and lots of it.
Instances like this cancelled Kickstarter project are why I espouse project introduction to the public late in development.
Although, with Kickstarter, the whole point is to have money to be able to get to a point late in development. For people who make all of their own assets, where should the line be drawn? The only component that requires pay is the time to work, and lots of it.
