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PUZZLES THAT MAKE SENSE
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LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
LockeZ
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CloseI've been trying to come up with puzzles that make sense in my dungeons. I decided to look at some other puzzle-heavy games for inspiration. This proved rather less useful than I'd hoped.
Puzzles in Zelda games, if you pay any attention to them, really don't go out of their way to try to make sense. I mean, they follow logic: there's an eyeball on the wall, and if you shoot the eyeball, a door opens somewhere. But why the HELL is the door's opening mechanism linked to an eyeball on the wall? Why would doors work that way anywhere, much less in almost every level in the game? Or why would a door be opened by a series of torches, or four windmills that have to be spun in a certain order, or whatever? Why would a room in a mine have platforms that raise up into the air for ten seconds when you shoot a crystal orb? Why does the castle garden have colored blocks that change color if you hit them with a sword, and a false wall that automatically lowers into the ground if all the blocks are yellow? IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Zelda does not give a shit if a puzzle makes sense for this area; to Zelda, every puzzle makes sense for every area. (Some Zelda games are better about this than others, though. Lufia 2 is worse than almost any of them.)
But, like, maybe no one cares? Maybe I am the only one who thinks areas in games need to make any sense or reflect any kind of coherent setting at all, and everyone else is fine with every game having Mario levels? I know there's generally a little more leeway in the "making sense" department for games with puzzles, but how MUCH more?
Also what's a puzzle that uses a laser cannon and/or a lighter to either get through a ship's engine room or to turn on a piece of machinery in it, and is at least slightly more complicated than "there's a crate in the way, shoot it" :(
Puzzles in Zelda games, if you pay any attention to them, really don't go out of their way to try to make sense. I mean, they follow logic: there's an eyeball on the wall, and if you shoot the eyeball, a door opens somewhere. But why the HELL is the door's opening mechanism linked to an eyeball on the wall? Why would doors work that way anywhere, much less in almost every level in the game? Or why would a door be opened by a series of torches, or four windmills that have to be spun in a certain order, or whatever? Why would a room in a mine have platforms that raise up into the air for ten seconds when you shoot a crystal orb? Why does the castle garden have colored blocks that change color if you hit them with a sword, and a false wall that automatically lowers into the ground if all the blocks are yellow? IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Zelda does not give a shit if a puzzle makes sense for this area; to Zelda, every puzzle makes sense for every area. (Some Zelda games are better about this than others, though. Lufia 2 is worse than almost any of them.)
But, like, maybe no one cares? Maybe I am the only one who thinks areas in games need to make any sense or reflect any kind of coherent setting at all, and everyone else is fine with every game having Mario levels? I know there's generally a little more leeway in the "making sense" department for games with puzzles, but how MUCH more?
Also what's a puzzle that uses a laser cannon and/or a lighter to either get through a ship's engine room or to turn on a piece of machinery in it, and is at least slightly more complicated than "there's a crate in the way, shoot it" :(
GOLD ARMOR IS UNSUITABLE FOR COMBAT. IT IS SOFTER THAN OTHER METALS.
Pretty much. I play games to have fun -- and a lot of the time, immersion can be kept despite some ridiculous stuff.
A game like Bastion isn't realistic, and the situations you're thrown into are pretty absurd (THE BIRDS WANT TO BUILD A NEW BASE, ATTACK!), but between the narration and the established setting it all feels just fine. If a puzzle looks cool and plays well, there's not really a difference (see: shooting an eyeball to open a door).
Rule of cool > GOLD ARMOR
But, like, maybe no one cares?
Pretty much. I play games to have fun -- and a lot of the time, immersion can be kept despite some ridiculous stuff.
A game like Bastion isn't realistic, and the situations you're thrown into are pretty absurd (THE BIRDS WANT TO BUILD A NEW BASE, ATTACK!), but between the narration and the established setting it all feels just fine. If a puzzle looks cool and plays well, there's not really a difference (see: shooting an eyeball to open a door).
Rule of cool > GOLD ARMOR
I don't think it really matters if a puzzle has logical context or not. Based on your screenshots it looks like your game has a pretty modern setting so there's a wealth of material to pull ideas from. Find some electrical, mechanical, and computer engineering books and apply those concepts to obstacles in your dungeons. That said, puzzle design is really, really difficult and I respect professional puzzle designers. It's a weird mixture of creativity and logic that few possess.
Who even puts those puzzles in random caves? Just some average assholes that want to annoy any possible wannabe heroes and adventurers?
I don't think it matters either, isn't unrealism part of what being a game is? How much sense does hitting a ball with a stick and running back to where you came from make? it's just fun.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Jude
Based on your screenshots it looks like your game has a pretty modern setting so there's a wealth of material to pull ideas from. Find some electrical, mechanical, and computer engineering books and apply those concepts to obstacles in your dungeons.
Yeah my question is basically "Is that actually worth doing, or should I just fill every dungeon, no matter what the setting is, with rooms full of randomly-placed purposeless platforms covered in pushable crates, and switches that raise and lower said platforms?"
Because I feel like it's better when a game's areas actually look like what they're supposed to be. But I dunno. Puzzles make it harder to do that.
I'm not sure Rule of Cool necessarily applies - it's more Rule of Easier to Make. I think it would have been both more sensible and cooler if the doors in Ocarina of Time's forest temple were opened by shooting an enemy that was carrying the key, and if the blocks that disappear when you play the Song of Time were tied into the plot somehow, and if the rooms were laid out like they had some kind of purpose other than obstacle courses.
Batman: Arkham Asylum and Arkham City do an amazing job of this - the puzzles are over the top sometimes, but they all thematically fit into the area they're in and don't break my immersion. For example, for doors that have to be unlocked by hitting an object in the environment at long range, they don't have buttons on the wall you have to hit with a batarang. That would have been the easy route, and they could have taken it. But instead they have Waynetech security panels that you have to use a remote decryption device on. You're still interacting with an object at long range, so the gameplay is essentially the same. However, I'm sure this affected what kinds of puzzles they could use in each zone. If all their locked doors that are opened by interacting with an object at long range are Waynetech security doors, then they can't have locked doors that are opened by interacting with an object at long range in places where Waynetech security doors don't make sense, like Joker's Funhouse, or the sewers. (Then the Riddler shows up and the designers are just like "fuck it, let's do it lufia style" and I get mad again)
author=LockeZ
Yeah my question is basically "Is that actually worth doing, or should I just fill every dungeon, no matter what the setting is, with rooms full of randomly-placed purposeless platforms covered in pushable crates, and switches that raise and lower said platforms?"
If you actually can devise good puzzles than they'll be satisfying to play, regardless. Good luck with that part, though.
Zelda isn't exactly a standard. In your sense it seems your world is futuristic (?) however, Zelda is medieval. Remember that Zelda is not made on Earth and does not have to follow Earth's rules. There is also a bit of magic in it. The world in Zelda is not as advances and so it makes sense their mechanisms aren't as complicated. Also, because it isn't Earth, different elements and minerals and such occur. It makes sense that their tech would be enhance and restricted because of the available materials to them.
Something else that doesn't make sense:
Fire Emblem: Silver is not a good weapon metal because it is weak, but is apparently better than bronze, iron, and steel in the game.
Something else that doesn't make sense:
Fire Emblem: Silver is not a good weapon metal because it is weak, but is apparently better than bronze, iron, and steel in the game.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
that has literally nothing whatsoever to do with this topic except that i mentioned the word zelda and you also mentioned the word zelda
author=LockeZ
that has literally nothing whatsoever to do with this topic except that i mentioned the word zelda and you also mentioned the word zelda
Well, I mean that Zelda isn't exactly illogical as far as puzzles go. I'm just defending it.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I wasn't really talking about Zelda. Or about my own game. I was talking about game design, and just using those as illustrations. Telling me it's not a valid example of the issue doesn't really matter because I still care about the issue either way.
What you said didn't really have to do with puzzles making sense, though, in the meaning of "making sense" that I'm using. I'm not really talking about stuff being physically possible. I'm talking about "why would anyone put rotating ladders, moving walls, doors that are opened by windmills inside a giant tree?" and stuff like that. The puzzles involving spiderwebs and vines and monkeys in the giant tree dungeons make sense, because those are things you might find in a giant tree; the puzzles involving trampolines and spikes and rotating platforms in the giant tree dungeons do not make sense, because seriously what the fuck.
Basically, my question is, "To what extent is the presence of puzzles a valid excuse for not bothering to do any of the stuff you would normally do in a non-interactive area to make the place look right?" I don't really think puzzles make all other aspects of level design irrelevant, but I guess a bunch of other people do, based on this topic. Maybe it's not worth worrying about.
What you said didn't really have to do with puzzles making sense, though, in the meaning of "making sense" that I'm using. I'm not really talking about stuff being physically possible. I'm talking about "why would anyone put rotating ladders, moving walls, doors that are opened by windmills inside a giant tree?" and stuff like that. The puzzles involving spiderwebs and vines and monkeys in the giant tree dungeons make sense, because those are things you might find in a giant tree; the puzzles involving trampolines and spikes and rotating platforms in the giant tree dungeons do not make sense, because seriously what the fuck.
Basically, my question is, "To what extent is the presence of puzzles a valid excuse for not bothering to do any of the stuff you would normally do in a non-interactive area to make the place look right?" I don't really think puzzles make all other aspects of level design irrelevant, but I guess a bunch of other people do, based on this topic. Maybe it's not worth worrying about.
I guess you could make some random character that is makingg obstacles in your path. Then you would have to explain how the villain is somehow anticipating your path. And why he has a grudge against you. And what in the world your objective is...
Unexplained puzzles don't bother me as long as the game isn't trying to convince me of its realism. Having to do a block-pushing puzzle in Call of Duty would weird me out. Some games rely more heavily on a sense of realism - even in a fantasy world - and if you are delving into that realm then you should explain your puzzles.
But, if you're gonna start explaining dungeon puzzles in Zelda, you're gonna have to explain how there's a Fire and an Ice temple and how they're within a couple miles of each other. And usually it's just not worth opening that bag; plus players can come up with fun reasons themselves like "temporal moon shifts caused by Ganon's presence"
But, if you're gonna start explaining dungeon puzzles in Zelda, you're gonna have to explain how there's a Fire and an Ice temple and how they're within a couple miles of each other. And usually it's just not worth opening that bag; plus players can come up with fun reasons themselves like "temporal moon shifts caused by Ganon's presence"
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