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FEMALES AND GAMING - #1REASONWHY
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iddalai
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author=emmychWow, that was the most disgustingly sexist thing I've ever read in my life. If you can't see how offensive it is, then replace all instances of the word "men" with "black people" and suddenly it takes on an entirely different light.
Hey LockeZ here is a quote from a fairly well known feminist blogger:author=Melissa McEwanHere is the entire blogpost, if you're interested. It's pretty much hitting the nail on the head.
There are the occasions that men—intellectual men, clever men, engaged men—insist on playing devil's advocate, desirous of a debate on some aspect of feminist theory or reproductive rights or some other subject generally filed under the heading: Women's Issues. These intellectual, clever, engaged men want to endlessly probe my argument for weaknesses, want to wrestle over details, want to argue just for fun—and they wonder, these intellectual, clever, engaged men, why my voice keeps raising and why my face is flushed and why, after an hour of fighting my corner, hot tears burn the corners of my eyes. Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that's so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.
Please go read that. Please think it over. Tell me again why it's a mystery that this thread would make me and other women reading it the slightest bit angry.
I hope those black people will hear me when I say, again, I do not hate you. I mistrust you.I'm not racist, but...
If you're going to posit that "men are evil and we have to protect ourselves from them," how are we ever going to make progress as a society? To solve gender equality, we have to set aside our differences and work together. It's a two-way street and it requires mutual respect. Promoting misandrist fearmongering does nothing but drive us further apart and prevent us from ever solving our problems.
author=alteregoauthor=Solitayre
This thread is becoming tiring. Here's a hint. If you are a man, and you are lecturing women on why they act a certain way or how they should react to gender inequality, you are probably part of the problem.
Heh; Am I the only one who sees some grade of irony in claims like this? Men and women supposedly aren't that different, they think and act very much alike. Yet as a person I still can't have a discussion with another person about a certain subject because being born with a different set of genitals makes me somehow unable to... How does that work?
I said that they think generally the same, not that they are treated the same, which is what this argument is about.
Jude
Highly scientific diagram
See, this is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier. Pop psychology. Everyone knows women just think about clothes and babies and nagging, and men only think about sex, beer, sex, sex, and sex. These preconceptions exist because they are reinforced constantly in every aspect of popular culture, sitcoms, commercials, movies, everything over and over and over again for the last thirty years. It is so ingrained in our consciousness now that it has become the truth and we cannot separate the reality of it from the fiction.
This is a result of a mainstream media that is determined to break men and women down into simple, easy to market-to categories. This is how you appeal to men, this is how you appeal to women. Men invented the idea that their wives don't like sex because that was easier than ever having to question their own sexual prowess. Men invented the idea that women nag them because that's easier than coming to terms with the fact that they could ever be irresponsible about anything. "That's right guys, your woman just doesn't get you does she? You're a victim, now look at these supermodels draped over this Porsche and buy our product." They created a need, then appealed to that need. It's extremely offensive to both men and women. I don't know about the rest of you but I get really tired of being portrayed this way in all of the everything.
Sailerius
Wow, that was the most disgustingly sexist thing I've ever read in my life. If you can't see how offensive it is, then replace all instances of the word "men" with "black people" and suddenly it takes on an entirely different light.
This is the angle of feminism I don't really care for because it characterizes men (aka me) as the enemy. Whatever her message, the heart of this article is a prejudice against men, and an impassioned attempt to claim that this prejudice is justified when prejudice cannot be justified.
Her assumption is that I, as a man, left to my own devices, would probably hurt or offend her in some way, in thought or action, deed or misdeed, or simply through a lack of thorough introspection. I make an honest effort every day of my life to show everyone around me the respect and dignity they deserve and am very careful not to use language that others may find offensive. But she has prejudged me. As a man, I am less worthy of trust. And I'm not saying that I understand how she feels or that my pain is exactly the same as the pain women feel, but that hurts me.
But I do agree with her general argument, in that society in general promotes an atmosphere where she may not be welcome. I feel like this is where a lot of guys miss the point. "I'm totally in favor of everyone being equal, what's the big deal?" But check out all the popular culture stuff I talked about up there. The point is we can never have total gender equality in a cultural environment where casual misogyny is the norm. An atmosphere being promoted in this very thread.
The whole point of the gender equality movement is so that both men and women can be judged on their individual merits instead of these broad, sweeping mischaracterizations of both genders that are holding us down.
author=Sailerius
If you're going to posit that "men are evil and we have to protect ourselves from them," how are we ever going to make progress as a society? To solve gender equality, we have to set aside our differences and work together. It's a two-way street and it requires mutual respect. Promoting misandrist fearmongering does nothing but drive us further apart and prevent us from ever solving our problems.
THIS. It is so rare that we hear that it's a two-way street. I am sick to death of being assaulted by guilt for being an evil bigoted misogynist white man when I have done no wrong, especially when I actively try and get to the root of the problem.
It takes two to tango - a problem is not solved by driving deeper wedges between demographic groups and crushing the other guy. The only way to defeat bigotry is to realize that we are ALL, yes even us white straight men, human, and on the same team.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=SolitayreJudeSee, this is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier. Pop psychology. Everyone knows women just think about clothes and babies and nagging, and men only think about sex, beer, sex, sex, and sex. These preconceptions exist because they are reinforced constantly in every aspect of popular culture, sitcoms, commercials, movies, everything over and over and over again for the last thirty years. It is so ingrained in our consciousness now that it has become the truth and we cannot separate the reality of it from the fiction.
Highly scientific diagram
To be fair, clothes and babies and sex and beer are all perfectly acceptable interests. There's nothing morally wrong with these stereotypes. Presumptions about someone are only harmful if they're worse than the truth. The nagging one is absolutely a harmful stereotype.
The idea of never making any presumptions about anyone or anything is absurd, also. Society wouldn't be able to function. It would be impossible for anyone to ever be a suspect in a crime, for example, because detectives couldn't assume that having a motive or fitting a profile made you any more likely to commit a crime. It would be impossible to ever market a product, because there'd be no such thing as demographics. It would be impossible to defend yourself, because you could never assume someone was about to attack you - even if they'd thrown three punches already, you'd be making an unfounded negative assumption about them that they're about to throw a fourth one. See? It gets ridiculous. Some assumptions are not based on facts, and those should absolutely be disproven and squashed. But some of them are based on real statistics or logic. And those ones are fine to assume, until evidence starts to suggest otherwise - even if they put someone in a negative light.
So "that's a harmful stereotype" isn't enough of an argument. You need to show that it's both harmful and unfounded. The stereotype of going to the restroom in groups is neither harmful nor unfounded; it's not going anywhere. The stereotype of being bad at math is harmful and has been disproven; it needs to die. The best way of making it die is probably publicizing the studies that have disproved it, I'd think.
Stereotypes by their very nature are harmful to society. If someone assumes a black man is more likely to be a criminal, even subconsciously, they are less likely to hire him based on assumptions completely irrelevant to his merits. If it's a prevalent stereotype, this will lead to a measurable detriment to black male employment in the workplace. Ignoring the obvious moral qualms of stereotyping, it also means our workplace is full of people who are less qualified but were hired because they are not black.
Whether a stereotype is founded or not is absolutely irrelevant. Yes, there has been proven studies that there are a higher number of blacks than whites in jail (which is another discussion on discrimination altogether) but that does not matter. What matters is whether the person in front of you is qualified based on individual merit alone, not what members of similar race, gender, and so on have done.
---
On a side note, that blog author, while making a point, takes an ironically aggressive stance against men; but she does outright admit that she stereotypes men.
I don't think it's even possible for us to go through life without stereotyping others. It's part of human nature and at a first logical glance it makes sense; however, we should at least be aware of it and try to combat it.
Whether a stereotype is founded or not is absolutely irrelevant. Yes, there has been proven studies that there are a higher number of blacks than whites in jail (which is another discussion on discrimination altogether) but that does not matter. What matters is whether the person in front of you is qualified based on individual merit alone, not what members of similar race, gender, and so on have done.
---
On a side note, that blog author, while making a point, takes an ironically aggressive stance against men; but she does outright admit that she stereotypes men.
I don't think it's even possible for us to go through life without stereotyping others. It's part of human nature and at a first logical glance it makes sense; however, we should at least be aware of it and try to combat it.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
But it's also accurate, in some places, that some demographics are more likely to commit crimes than others. Just because something hurts someone doesn't mean yous should close your eyes to the truth. It hurts one person unfairly, but ignoring that fact would hurt another person unfairly - the person who gets mugged because they didn't stay away from dangerous streets because they didn't want to stereotype anyone. Plus, people's rights are important, but finding and sharing the truth is infinitely more important. Truth trumps everything, to me, except maybe matters of life and death.
This is really, I think, the core of the reason why I argue against things like this. I don't actually disagree with any of the moral issues nor the practical ones; I honestly agree with almost 100% of what the feminist blogger wrote in her huge post. I just don't think they're as high of a priority as other moral issues. I think they get trumped by the importance of truth, and also by freedo of speech.
This is really, I think, the core of the reason why I argue against things like this. I don't actually disagree with any of the moral issues nor the practical ones; I honestly agree with almost 100% of what the feminist blogger wrote in her huge post. I just don't think they're as high of a priority as other moral issues. I think they get trumped by the importance of truth, and also by freedo of speech.
I still have a hard time tracking and remembering who is a dude and who is a chick here, and I run the place. And I don't need to know. It's not important.
Gender is irrelevant, or at the very least far less relevant than other items (like skill, passion, creativity, tenacity, etc...). I cannot understand how my cock relates to my productivity.
When I form my staff and helpers here at RMN, I am not looking to fill some quota of "I need X penises and Y vaginas". I am looking for a variety of viewpoints and different areas of expertise and passion. I want diversity, but I am not looking into people's pants to find it.
And I think that's how most people are. Most people really are reasonable, accommodating and willing, or (probably more often) ambivalent towards gender and what that may or may not imply.
But maybe I think that because I am Canadian? (sorry!)
Also, the word 'cock' appears in the PM history table 79 times.
EDIT:
in case you didn't get the reference:
Gender is irrelevant, or at the very least far less relevant than other items (like skill, passion, creativity, tenacity, etc...). I cannot understand how my cock relates to my productivity.
When I form my staff and helpers here at RMN, I am not looking to fill some quota of "I need X penises and Y vaginas". I am looking for a variety of viewpoints and different areas of expertise and passion. I want diversity, but I am not looking into people's pants to find it.
And I think that's how most people are. Most people really are reasonable, accommodating and willing, or (probably more often) ambivalent towards gender and what that may or may not imply.
But maybe I think that because I am Canadian? (sorry!)
Also, the word 'cock' appears in the PM history table 79 times.
EDIT:
in case you didn't get the reference:
Basically everything kentona said (if anyone's wondering where the "how my cock relates to my productivity" line came from, that was me in IRC <3).
Couple additions:
- I see a lot of people reading into quotes that do not exist. King Arthur's Notepad suggestion being transformed into "programming so easy durr hurr" is a blinding one that, quite honestly, scares me, because it's this type of misunderstanding that starts civil wars in the name of 'religion'. Make sure you understand what you read before discussing it, y'all. Reading Comprehension 101.
- If you're going to argue, consult sources before making a related point, and make sure to include those sources. Most of what I've seen in this topic has been baseless conjecture for the most part. When sources are unavailable, people with first-hand experience in the right positions are the best ones to speak on the matter(s) at hand. For example, I know Sailerius is a CS student (or graduate?) and probably has industry experience. I'm a CS student myself, and agree with the the idea that most girls, even the CS majors, just don't like programming (not to say that they are BAD, but they geniunely don't have any sort of passion for it). I'm at a loss as to why, but this is a very prominent phenomenon in the field and is pretty much common knowledge.
- Too much raw emotion in this topic (mostly the obvious feminists, it has to be said). While it's fair that you might be incensed regarding such delicate matters, I'm glad to note that the vast majority of RMN forumers (well, in debates such as these, anyway) are intelligent, well-educated people and would probably readily listen to any objective reasoning. As such, there's no real need to accuse those arguing opposing views of being oblivious, conceited or stubborn.
Just my two dollah.
Couple additions:
- I see a lot of people reading into quotes that do not exist. King Arthur's Notepad suggestion being transformed into "programming so easy durr hurr" is a blinding one that, quite honestly, scares me, because it's this type of misunderstanding that starts civil wars in the name of 'religion'. Make sure you understand what you read before discussing it, y'all. Reading Comprehension 101.
- If you're going to argue, consult sources before making a related point, and make sure to include those sources. Most of what I've seen in this topic has been baseless conjecture for the most part. When sources are unavailable, people with first-hand experience in the right positions are the best ones to speak on the matter(s) at hand. For example, I know Sailerius is a CS student (or graduate?) and probably has industry experience. I'm a CS student myself, and agree with the the idea that most girls, even the CS majors, just don't like programming (not to say that they are BAD, but they geniunely don't have any sort of passion for it). I'm at a loss as to why, but this is a very prominent phenomenon in the field and is pretty much common knowledge.
- Too much raw emotion in this topic (mostly the obvious feminists, it has to be said). While it's fair that you might be incensed regarding such delicate matters, I'm glad to note that the vast majority of RMN forumers (well, in debates such as these, anyway) are intelligent, well-educated people and would probably readily listen to any objective reasoning. As such, there's no real need to accuse those arguing opposing views of being oblivious, conceited or stubborn.
Just my two dollah.
author=LockeZ
Plus, people's rights are important, but finding and sharing the truth is infinitely more important. Truth trumps everything, to me, except maybe matters of life and death.
Nothing can stand in the way of LockeZ epic search for truth! ...except maybe looong posts which he won't read to find out if they'll help in that search.
That pretty much means that what you said is bravado sierra.
author=KingArthur
Regardless, I'm not showing favoritism to one gender or the other and you're not going to get anything out of me from trying to pull a "gotcha!" on that angle.
I'm not trying to pull a "gotcha!", I'm proving a point: the issue of sexism is so enrooted in our society and education that you did it and didn't even noticed, because it's considered normal. I'm not saying it's your fault, you can't control it.
author=Yellow Magic
Too much raw emotion in this topic (mostly the obvious feminists, it has to be said).
The reason for the amount of raw emotion from "mostly the obvious feminists" as you put it, is because it seems that only the "obvious feminists" are able to spot the issue even in this forum while the others seem to ignore it.
Notice how everyone is defensive? Part of the answer lies there.
One side is defensive because their claims are being dismissed as unimportant or false.
The other side is defensive because they feel they're being called the bad guys or feel attacked.
Just because you don't do it, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen anywhere else.
Just because I don't engage in sexual intercourse with animals it doesn't mean it doesn't happens anywhere else.
But hey! Don't mind me!
Canadian, the mysterious 3rd gender
Any topic relating to personal beliefs is bound to lead to raw emotion. Plus, feminism is nothing but a good thing. The definition of feminism is "the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men". Sounds like nothing but good, right?
Some people associate the word "feminism" with "ball-busting man-haters who believe everything with a dick is evil". Of course, some people also believe that all Muslims are capable of rigging bombs and will do so to terrorize innocent civilians at a moment's notice.
Truthfully this is NOT THE CASE
Any topic relating to personal beliefs is bound to lead to raw emotion. Plus, feminism is nothing but a good thing. The definition of feminism is "the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men". Sounds like nothing but good, right?
Some people associate the word "feminism" with "ball-busting man-haters who believe everything with a dick is evil". Of course, some people also believe that all Muslims are capable of rigging bombs and will do so to terrorize innocent civilians at a moment's notice.
Truthfully this is NOT THE CASE
author=iddalaiAre you going by King Arthur Misunderstanding #2 (i.e. "Men suck at writing about girls") as evidence of such an issue? Because if so, you're also reading into something that doesn't exist.
The reason for the amount of raw emotion from "mostly the obvious feminists" as you put it, is because it seems that only the "obvious feminists" are able to spot the issue even in this forum while the others seem to ignore it.
author=slashphoenixI understand that, but it doesn't mean we couldn't be a bit more civilized. Quoting awful people like emmych did is just not the way to go.
Any topic relating to personal beliefs is bound to lead to raw emotion. Plus, feminism is nothing but a good thing. The definition of feminism is "the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men". Sounds like nothing but good, right?
I'm guessing the paragraph about feminism wasn't directed towards me, because I don't think of the term as derogatory in the least.
By the way, I really don't think anyone's suggesting that sexism doesn't exist, guys. Not 100% sure that's what people are seeing, but I just thought I'd put that out there.
I'm not sure how much it is sexism. The only programmer I know who can fluently write PostScript is female. And I know of a fair number of very talented and well respected female flash programmers.
author=iddalaiI'm actually going to go a step further and state that I am in fact at fault for my bad choice of words, accident or not. "Girls" refers to a specific subset of women, and in the context of this discussion that word also carries some negative connotations. While my usage of the word "girls" in that one instance was a slip of the typing fingers, I still admit that I am ultimately at fault for my bad choice of words and I will apologize and correct myself for it as I feel it is my duty as a mature person to do so.
I'm not trying to pull a "gotcha!", I'm proving a point: the issue of sexism is so enrooted in our society and education that you did it and didn't even noticed, because it's considered normal. I'm not saying it's your fault, you can't control it.
Personally, I believe the first step in coming to an agreement in any debate is to admit to one's shortfalls, if there are any, and make amends where neccesary.
I'm also going to disagree with you that this is beyond my control. I dictate what I say, ultimately, and I am in full control whether to press forward my actions (whether flawed or not) or to make amends. If I'm not in control of myself, who is?
The other side is defensive because they feel they're being called the bad guys or feel attacked.The reason why we're calling Acra out on her supposed hostility is because she is being openly hostile to others in this discussion when that hostility clearly had no merit. We do sympathize with what Acra has had to go through, let's make that part clear beforehand, but we are taking issue with her stance that she assumes anyone not in full compliance with her opinion are automatically bad guys taking part in making her day miserable.
I'd like to note that while there are many people partaking in this debate with differing opinions, as any debate would be, everybody besides Acra has done their utmost best to keep personal attacks and emotional appeals to a bare minimum, if not none at all. We've all tried our best to choose our words carefully, we've all tried our best to discuss this topic in a civil manner (a topic everyone realizes is a very sensitive issue!) and then suddenly we have someone antagonizing others out of nowhere. What's up with that? This isn't a question of Acra's gender nor her life experience, we are taking issue with the fact she effectively trolled and flamed almost everyone in an otherwise civil discussion.
In short, what we've all been trying to say is that we simply can't have a constructive discussion if anyone is going to start flinging mud at the other participants. Mud slinging will only raise animosity towards the mud slinger, detract from the focal point of the debate, and ultimately serve to benefit nobody.
Also, Harm and LockeZ made a very important point earlier: Everyone has been at the receiving end of discrimination at some point in their lives.
To give a little bit of my side of the story regarding this, I'm a middle-class male Japanese-American born and living in the USA and I've felt discrimination towards my social status, race, gender, and nationality numerous times, some as the butt of jokes which I laugh together with, some as misconceptual stereotypes (Asians are supposedly awesome at playing games! It's also always hilarious when people in Japan think I'm white, blonde, and blue-eyed because I'm American.) and some as actual attacks which I felt genuinely offended by.
So again, let's not assume that someone doesn't understand what it feels like to be discriminated, we all know what it feels like to be discriminated and it would be to everyone's mutual benefit to realize this before we move on with this discussion. (￣▽￣)ノ
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=iddalaiauthor=LockeZNothing can stand in the way of LockeZ epic search for truth! ...except maybe looong posts which he won't read to find out if they'll help in that search.
Plus, people's rights are important, but finding and sharing the truth is infinitely more important. Truth trumps everything, to me, except maybe matters of life and death.
That pretty much means that what you said is bravado sierra.
I did not say I was a perfect human being, and did in fact apologize for not reading your whole posts. I don't have the time to read every single post everyone on the internet has ever made. I wish I did. Search for truth is an ideal pursuit, but I get distracted by things like my job and game design and gangam style mashup videos
Mr_Detective
60
author=????
Note who he quotes it as from. Really, he's not calling me a liar? He's calling me far worse than that, actually.
Enjoy being attacked?
That was only a joke, please don't take it personally. I just thought it was odd because you haven't made any games, so what was it for kentona to put on the front page ? :P
And wow... This thread is going in a positive direction... :)
author=Green guy in white shirt
Can someone explain to me what is stopping females from trying programming?
Make up, clothes, Victoria 's Secret, gossiping about guys is more fun, ect... :O
Hey, i program... :/ and i admit i like make-up, but i hate Victoria's Secret + gossiping about guys.. actually, girls don't even really talk about guys at all. :s
a friend of mine used to program too and was a girl, but we both stopped cuz we just didn't feel we'd have a future in it, there was no one else to really relate to, and we had other classes we needed to be taking.
i still program/ script today though.
a friend of mine used to program too and was a girl, but we both stopped cuz we just didn't feel we'd have a future in it, there was no one else to really relate to, and we had other classes we needed to be taking.
i still program/ script today though.
