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author=kentona
how does owning a gun help here?
Deterrent (for rational criminals, not psycho monsters like those mass murderers). Less likely for thugs to break into homes when they knows the men of the houses are packing heat.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with inner cities, Kentona, so I won't assume anything. But I will tell you what I've seen. The thugs that don't have guns will just rob you at knife point or even just commit strong arm robbery.
Some 6'4" 240 lb dude in a hoodie would scare the shit out of any regular joe or jane, walking home alone from their late shift or sitting at home during a break in. Your life or livelihood can be in danger without any weapon involved.
author=chana
I think Kentona wanted to stress this paradox coming from someone who is against gun control
Total gun control means you can't legally own a gun. Criminals will always be able to get their hands on them. The same way drugs are controlled/illegal, yet abundant in society. There's no paradox. You can't erase weapons from existence, only make it hard or impossible to legally obtain. You can always get them illegally.
And I'm not against gun control. I don't think anyone should be packing automatic weapons, and there should be stricter screenings for gun purchasers. But I do defend that many millions of people do have a legitimate need for a gun in their homes.
author=SqueakyReaper
Is there a particular reason a citizen needs to own an assault rifle?
No, definitely not. No fully auto weapons for sure.
Sadly though, I recall the Va Tech shooting happened with only handguns. I doubt that fixes anything.
Oh hi there, Australia here. Only farmers and those who need a gun* are allowed to have them. Also, knives are a no-no. Sure we get stabbings and shootings in gang and drug related crimes but I can't remember the last time someone shot up a school.
Just sayin'
*Oh, and those are never semi-automatic or automatic weapons. Only the military are allowed to have those.
Do I feel safe? Uh, I leave my front and back doors open on summer nights, never lock the windows and haven't been robbed or in fear of being so yet. :]
Just sayin'
*Oh, and those are never semi-automatic or automatic weapons. Only the military are allowed to have those.
Do I feel safe? Uh, I leave my front and back doors open on summer nights, never lock the windows and haven't been robbed or in fear of being so yet. :]
Oh hi there, France here. Only farmers and those who need a gun* are allowed to have them. Also, knives are a no-no. Sure we get stabbings and shootings in gang and drug related crimes but I can't remember the last time someone shot up a school.
SegNin
41
This recent madness (Oregon Mall Shooting, Mass-Stabbing of Schoolchildren in China, and now this tragedy in Connecticut)
Maybe it's just a freaky coincidence, but it all started on 12-12-12.
Which some wackos believed was the date that the Mayans had predicted would be the end of the world as we know it.
Well, December 12th has passed and the world that we've always known is still here.
Maybe some of these yo-yos who were expecting it to be gone can't accept that it didn't happen...and that's been enough to send them over the edge.
Maybe it's just a freaky coincidence, but it all started on 12-12-12.
Which some wackos believed was the date that the Mayans had predicted would be the end of the world as we know it.
Well, December 12th has passed and the world that we've always known is still here.
Maybe some of these yo-yos who were expecting it to be gone can't accept that it didn't happen...and that's been enough to send them over the edge.
11 different fellow students were robbed at night during my freshmen year of college, living in Philadelphia. Only 2 of those 11 incidents were by gunpoint. Criminals will find a way, guns or no. Monsters are even worse. Just sayin'.
Different world you two are from.
I'm not saying making it illegal or very difficult to own a gun will solve everything or is even ideal, BUT who can ignore that there are around 7 times more homicides by gun shooting (per day I imagine) than in France, or any other western european country for example per 100,000 habitants, so if it does not solve everything and eventually new types of problems emerge, STILL it will make a difference, imo.
author=Liberty
Oh hi there, Australia here. Only farmers and those who need a gun* are allowed to have them. Also, knives are a no-no. Sure we get stabbings and shootings in gang and drug related crimes but I can't remember the last time someone shot up a school.
Just sayin'
*Oh, and those are never semi-automatic or automatic weapons. Only the military are allowed to have those.
Do I feel safe? Uh, I leave my front and back doors open on summer nights, never lock the windows and haven't been robbed or in fear of being so yet. :]
The government regulates knives? The fuck?
I thought Australia was full of over-sized overly venomous monsters constantly trying to kill you? You'd think such a place would need to be armed to the teeth versus nature herself.
Yeah so, do you know how many people I could kill tomorrow, just by driving my car into a busy downtown sidewalk? It would be a bloodbath. All it would require would be my willingness to do so. Outlaw cars.
I completely agree with that "Guns don't kill people, people do" saying, but let's not pretend for a second that guns, specially the so called "automatic" or "military-issued" ones don't make the task overwhelmingly easy. I think is important to keep this in mind and not simply dismiss it as anti-gun rhetoric. It's important to examine to what extent "gun culture" is more important than "gun control"
Also, gun control as far as I know doesn't not involve rounding up all weapons and put them in jail. xD It is about doing background checks and whatnot to prevent the wrong kind of people to get a hold of a gun so easily. This would certainly not stop a criminal from getting a gun but it would hamper it a bit, and it would mean an extra charge against them once you catch them. Wouldn't it...?
The problem is that even the slightest amount of regulation goes against an strict interpretation of the second amendment and that is enough for some people to lose their head; Geez, the simply election of a democrat president is enough for some people to stock pile on guns and ammo for what I've read. - In the mind of those people gun control is nothing but a mini-ban or a gradual ban. =/
Anyway, I'm not American so feel free to lecture me and whatnot... I'm just saying that I think is Ok to own guns, many of them, big ones even. But as a form of compromise people shouldn't be so paranoid about allowing the government to keep a better check on things. I don't know how many years or school-shootings is gonna take, but I think at some point America will have to settle for this.
Also, gun control as far as I know doesn't not involve rounding up all weapons and put them in jail. xD It is about doing background checks and whatnot to prevent the wrong kind of people to get a hold of a gun so easily. This would certainly not stop a criminal from getting a gun but it would hamper it a bit, and it would mean an extra charge against them once you catch them. Wouldn't it...?
The problem is that even the slightest amount of regulation goes against an strict interpretation of the second amendment and that is enough for some people to lose their head; Geez, the simply election of a democrat president is enough for some people to stock pile on guns and ammo for what I've read. - In the mind of those people gun control is nothing but a mini-ban or a gradual ban. =/
Anyway, I'm not American so feel free to lecture me and whatnot... I'm just saying that I think is Ok to own guns, many of them, big ones even. But as a form of compromise people shouldn't be so paranoid about allowing the government to keep a better check on things. I don't know how many years or school-shootings is gonna take, but I think at some point America will have to settle for this.
eplipswich
2728
author=harmonic
Yeah so, do you know how many people I could kill tomorrow, just by driving my car into a busy downtown sidewalk? It would be a bloodbath. All it would require would be my willingness to do so. Outlaw cars.
Yeah, cars are not meant to kill people, anyway. Cars' main purpose is for driving. Just like knives. Knives are useful for cutting food and such.
But guns? What are guns' main purpose for? There aren't really any main purpose in using guns other than to shoot. And shooting isn't practical for daily usage...
But why ban guns specifically? I can kill people just as easily with a car as I can with a gun, I can pick up a knife and kill someone just as easily as I can with a gun. If you're going to ban guns, ban cars too, ban knives as well, and while we're at it why don't we ban every single implement that can be potentially used in some fashion to harm people?
The core problem with crying for gun control everytime shootings like this occur is that banning guns don't solve the core problem of murderers themselves. Do you really think a murderer's going to give two shits about whether it's illegal to obtain guns or even obtain a gun at all?
If we want to prevent mass shootings and mass murders, we need to deal with the murderers, not the tools they use. Ultimately, I can kill someone with my bare fists if I truly wanted to; are you going to ban me from using my hands too?
The core problem with crying for gun control everytime shootings like this occur is that banning guns don't solve the core problem of murderers themselves. Do you really think a murderer's going to give two shits about whether it's illegal to obtain guns or even obtain a gun at all?
If we want to prevent mass shootings and mass murders, we need to deal with the murderers, not the tools they use. Ultimately, I can kill someone with my bare fists if I truly wanted to; are you going to ban me from using my hands too?
^Because cars, fists and knives aren't commonly used to kill dozens of people. Jesus
Christ, this isn't rocket science.
Christ, this isn't rocket science.
author=eplipswichDo you never tenderise your steak by shooting it?
But guns? What are guns' main purpose for? There aren't really any main purpose in using guns other than to shoot. And shooting isn't practical for daily usage...
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
author=harmonic
The government regulates knives? The fuck?
I believe here in the Netherlands, it is illegal to own a double-bladed knife, since that is nothing short of a murder weapon. Of course kitchen knives aren't outlawed, but I guess people would ask questions if you walked across the street with them.
author=eplipswich
Yeah, cars are not meant to kill people, anyway. Cars' main purpose is for driving. Just like knives. Knives are useful for cutting food and such.
But guns? What are guns' main purpose for? There aren't really any main purpose in using guns other than to shoot. And shooting isn't practical for daily usage...
This.
Of course my vision is tainted by the strict weapon laws of my country, but we do only maybe have 1 murder per 400.000 citizens every year here.
It´s clear something has to change in America. If it isn´t gun laws, then make mental health care cheaper or encourage it, or whatever. AMERICA, DO SOMETHING!!!
author=Yellow MagicAs far as I can tell, the reason many people want to enact gun control and prohibit obtaining guns is to solve the problem of mass murders. Now, I believe we all agree we want mass murders to not ever happen, I don't want to see mass murders happen just as much as the next guy, but forbidding ordinary citizens from obtaining guns does not directly solve the issue of mass murders.
^Because cars, fists and knives aren't commonly used to kill dozens of people. Jesus
Christ, this isn't rocket science.
Japan is a perfect example of this: Japan prohibits ordinary citizens from obtaining guns, it's straight out prohibited and illegal to own guns in Japan. Nonetheless, there have been mass murders in Japan where the murderers in question have used anything from knives to cars to poison gas. Now what, are we going to ban people from driving cars?
Touting stricter gun control simply isn't going to eradicate mass murders, history reinforces this fact. Yes, gun control is indeed an important topic that most definitely merits discussion and debate on a national level, but the topic of gun control is simply and completely unrelated to the issue of preventing mass murders simply because lack of guns don't prevent mass murders.
Personally, I feel the answer is better education and mental health counseling. Directly approach, interact with, and help the would-be-murderers from becoming real murderers instead of simply taking one of their toys away from them and calling it a day.
I realize now that no matter how little guns there are, you will still be able to kill a lot of people in a little amount of time. But guns do make it much easier!
edit:
KingArthur, you can't argue that the easy availability of guns made this mass murder happen. I mean, they probably walked in and out of the 'gun store'. Practically anyone who meets to extremely easy requirements to purchase one can do this.
Also, if we 'take these naughty boys to the shrink', what is the purpose of guns afterward? For your average human being to protect themselves against a zombie-alien monster invasion? (probably)
also you should ready liberty's post one more time and consider some things before you post once more
and sure there is no reason to ban smaller, less powerful weapons that aren't as capable of as much murder as the weapons that man used
and will you ever get the message through to people who are that insane anyway?
edit:
KingArthur, you can't argue that the easy availability of guns made this mass murder happen. I mean, they probably walked in and out of the 'gun store'. Practically anyone who meets to extremely easy requirements to purchase one can do this.
Also, if we 'take these naughty boys to the shrink', what is the purpose of guns afterward? For your average human being to protect themselves against a zombie-alien monster invasion? (probably)
also you should ready liberty's post one more time and consider some things before you post once more
and sure there is no reason to ban smaller, less powerful weapons that aren't as capable of as much murder as the weapons that man used
and will you ever get the message through to people who are that insane anyway?
eplipswich
2728
KingArthur, I agree that the best solution is to have better public awareness, education and health counselling. Still though, you can't deny that guns are effective weapons in killing. And they aren't practically useful at all in the first place, unlike cars and knives. Which is why I think it's wise to ban public usage of guns altogether as a secondary disciplinary measure. After banning guns, then work on improving public awareness, education and health counselling.
Ultimately, though, mass murders can't be prevented altogether, but can be minimized. And the solution also ultimately lies in the individual. That's where public awareness comes in, but public awareness alone won't be as effective in minimizing mass murders as public awareness + stringent laws. Stringent laws, as secondary measures, plus public awareness, education and counselling as primary measures, will both go a long way in helping to minimize not only mass murders, but also problems that involve psychological aspects. That is to say, both are inter-connected.
Ultimately, though, mass murders can't be prevented altogether, but can be minimized. And the solution also ultimately lies in the individual. That's where public awareness comes in, but public awareness alone won't be as effective in minimizing mass murders as public awareness + stringent laws. Stringent laws, as secondary measures, plus public awareness, education and counselling as primary measures, will both go a long way in helping to minimize not only mass murders, but also problems that involve psychological aspects. That is to say, both are inter-connected.
Yeah, it's only big knives and the ones with sharpened blades that are not allowed. It's not like people are searched when they go in and out of school in case they're carrying, but if you've given the cops a reason to pull you up and they find a bladed knife on you, you may as well kiss it goodbye unless you have a license for it. You may even get a fine, depending what kind of knife it is. I mean, shit, don't go carrying machetes around and whatnot, you know? In outback towns or around the rainforested areas it's probably not a big deal for someone to carry something bigger for cutting stuff, but in rural districts where you don't need them? Yeah.
author=KingArthurYou can't exactly drive into a school or knive students. Whatever measures can be taken to prevent any sort of crime should be taken. This goes without saying, honestly.
Japan is a perfect example of this: Japan prohibits ordinary citizens from obtaining guns, it's straight out prohibited and illegal to own guns in Japan. Nonetheless, there have been mass murders in Japan where the murderers in question have used anything from knives to cars to poison gas. Now what, are we going to ban people from driving cars?
