CONNECTICUT SHOOTING

author=deboo
Guns are made to kill people and that is their sole purpose. The constitution needs to be amended. I'm not sorry for saying that it is shocking this is still a debate. How many shootings will there be before America realises it's NOT 'every man's right to bear arms'?

It's in the constitution as a final power check against the government. It was not written with a technology limit or a time limit in mind. (As in, muskets are fine, but once you get to the 21st century, take this liberty away) Our founders knew that no government can be given unchecked power and be expected to behave without corruption. Clamping down on this right takes power away from the people. When our country beat yours in the Revolutionary War, we vowed not to follow Europe down its path of folly. That's one reason why there are so many unique things about America, and I grow weary of various cultural factors (mainly European and Canadian influences) looking down their noses at the most prominent defender of the West, the free world, and Democracy, on all domestic matters.

@SqueakyReaper: I don't see it as extremism. I believe in balance. I enjoy practicing with, maintaining, and teaching the use of firearms... but I vote Democrat almost exclusively. On some fundamental level, my ballot history establishes that the medicare and social security benefits that make it possible for our elderly to survive are more important than my ability to legally own a Beretta 93-R.

Still, I would rather see time and money invested towards improving the availability of mental health services than see those same resources spent on gun removal.

To answer Killer Wolf, I agree : total security does not exist (a silly dream a lot of people seem to have), death can always be around the corner and I see what you mean by guns being a scapegoat for those who think too fast, nevertheless I still beleive allowing gun ownership only under srict control would make make it more difficult for those destroyed minds to commit mass murders and thus reduce them (along with a lot of other measures of course).

author=KingArthur

author=Sailerius

author=Dyhalto
The nature of discussion in this topic would be 180 degrees if the principal, or another teacher, had been carrying a gun and took the guy out.

...until one day, a principal or teacher goes around and shoots up a school...

I would argue that the topic should then be focused on why a deranged person like that got to be a principal or teacher and why he got deranged to begin with.

I agree. While we're at it, why mentally deranged people are allowed to own guns in the first place?

There you have it. As long as there are guns, people who will use them for ill will be able to get a hold of them. Which is easier, getting rid of guns or changing human nature?

(Those who say the problem is that these people should be treated or cured should educate themselves on what effective treatments there are for psychopathy.)

(Spoiler: None.)

Still no one has adequately addressed the fact that countries which have banned guns have not descended into anarchy with criminals carrying guns freely and killing the unarmed populace as they insist will happen here if we do the same.

author=Sailerius
There you have it. As long as there are guns, people who will use them for ill will be able to get a hold of them. Which is easier, getting rid of guns or changing human nature?

You asked this question to be a hypothetical, thinking there's no reason for anyone to argue against you. Well, sorry to burst your bubble.

You may be able to get rid of all guns when pigs fly out of my ass. Then you can get rid of knives, bombs, hammers, cars, fertilizer, martial arts training, etc when even more pigs fly out of my ass. (Point being, you can't get rid of weapons. We've been using weapons since we carved spears from rock.)

However, you can recognize that perhaps there is a problem with public schools, or a problem with culture. The feeling that no one is out there looking out for you, the feeling that you don't belong. A very young person who has no support system and is shunned by society may feel there is absolutely no risk, nothing to lose, no remorse to be felt about shooting up a school.

My own experience with public schools? Teachers are too busy covering their own ass than to worry whether or not some kid feels neglected. This is partially the fault of overly entitled parents, uptight bureaucratic administrators, or just teacher laziness. You are not rewarded, but rather, punished (seen as a renegade) for wanting to go the extra mile with students who may need help. This is not the case in every school, but all it takes is one kid to slip through the cracks, as we've seen.

author=Sailerius
Except that would do nothing to stop or deter clinical sociopaths or psychopaths. Anyone who thinks that a legitimate, clinical psychopath can just be helped by love and support and counseling has never met one before. It sounds crude to say this, and unfortunately, it's not their fault, but the simple fact of the matter is that they are a threat to society which is incurable by modern medicine and psychology. Psychopaths with violent tendencies will cause harm. The only way you can prevent it is to minimize the damage by preventing them access to firearms.

I would argue that that is not a "fact." Do you think Adam Lanza was born that way? And if they are indeed an "incurable threat to society", don't you think they'll find a way to kill people if guns are not available? Remember the deadly bomb made out of a U-haul truck full of fertilizer?

author=harmonic

author=Sailerius
Except that would do nothing to stop or deter clinical sociopaths or psychopaths. Anyone who thinks that a legitimate, clinical psychopath can just be helped by love and support and counseling has never met one before. It sounds crude to say this, and unfortunately, it's not their fault, but the simple fact of the matter is that they are a threat to society which is incurable by modern medicine and psychology. Psychopaths with violent tendencies will cause harm. The only way you can prevent it is to minimize the damage by preventing them access to firearms.

I would argue that that is not a "fact." Do you think Adam Lanza was born that way? And if they are indeed an "incurable threat to society", don't you think they'll find a way to kill people if guns are not available? Remember the deadly bomb made out of a U-haul truck full of fertilizer?

Not being a psychologist, I can't claim to have any idea what was wrong with Adam Lanza. The cause of it is still disputed ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Causes_and_pathophysiology ) but yes, it is possible that some people are simply born that way.

The problem with guns is that they're easy to use and easy to cause a lot of devastation in a small amount of time. Also, I'm not sure what your point is? Bombs are already illegal. Unless you're suggesting we should also make all the components used to make a gun illegal.

@KingArthur: It's a lot harder to sneak a car into a school and start running kids over with it. Also, a car serves a legitimate purpose. Guns only exist to commit murder.

author=Sailerius
The problem with guns is that they're easy to use and easy to cause a lot of devastation in a small amount of time. Also, I'm not sure what your point is? Bombs are already illegal. Unless you're suggesting we should also make all the components used to make a gun illegal.

Aha, thank you for this. You just ironclad proved my point.

So you're saying outlawing bomb components (simple things you can get from walmart) is absurd and impractical? I agree. Yet, how easy it would be to google a bomb recipe, spend 100$, and build a bomb. No license or background check required. No stealing from someone who does have a license. Easier to kill lots of people with one bomb blast that takes out 20 kids and yourself instantly, rather than having to aim a gun, make lots of noise, and inevitably get caught.