GAMING DEVELOPING AND WHERE TO BEGIN.
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I've been using RPG Maker since the 2K3 days but never really pushed the engine like many here. Most of my games where story focused using RTP graphics and were only played my my friends and brother. In 2011, I began graphic designing and spriting. I mostly did mockups and demakes of NES games but nothing more than that. Just recently, I learned more about custom menu/battle systems and had and idea to create my own RPG. A custom one. But I honestly don't where to begin.
Do I create the graphics first or create the game first using the resources that comes with Ace? I also want to create my own custom menu and battle systems but I'm not really sure how to do it with events (I understand variables but don't know how to use them to create a battle system). I also want a custom message system but can't script.
I'm also aware of the many scripts out there (I used a few of Yanflys before) but I want freedom graphically which is why I want to do it myself (really tired of VX/Ace's user interface).
I'm in no rush to create games but I would like some advice from you guys/gals here who have created several games. My games are relatively short so it's not like I'm asking to develop the next Starless Umbra (love that game!).
But yeah, any help is appreciated :)
Do I create the graphics first or create the game first using the resources that comes with Ace? I also want to create my own custom menu and battle systems but I'm not really sure how to do it with events (I understand variables but don't know how to use them to create a battle system). I also want a custom message system but can't script.
I'm also aware of the many scripts out there (I used a few of Yanflys before) but I want freedom graphically which is why I want to do it myself (really tired of VX/Ace's user interface).
I'm in no rush to create games but I would like some advice from you guys/gals here who have created several games. My games are relatively short so it's not like I'm asking to develop the next Starless Umbra (love that game!).
But yeah, any help is appreciated :)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
You won't be using events to make a custom menu or battle system, you'll be using scripts. A few dedicated/insane people used events for them in RM2K3 because they just didn't have better tools to use, but it was awful and never worked right. You can pretty much learn computer programming from scratch and then make a custom battle system in Ruby in less time than it takes to copy and paste an existing event-based custom battle system from one game to another. And as a bonus feature there is a chance it will actually function properly - whereas there is no chance whatsoever that an event-based battle system will function properly.
You are free to create your own scripts if you aren't happy with the existing systems people have made and publically released, but you should probably be aware that graphics are a stupid reason to make your own battle system. You can adapt an existing one to your needs with much less effort. Making your own menu system is another story; that's much less work and very reasonable. Making your own battle menus is also pretty reasonable. Menus aren't too hard, as scripts go. It's recoding all the gameplay that you'll very quickly regret.
As for starting with graphics or content, I prefer to constantly swap back and forth, making some of the graphics at the beginning and more as I need them, using placeholders as appropriate. Even if you don't know which yet, I can guarantee you'll vastly prefer one of those two things (graphics or content) over the other, and having several hundred straight hours of the less enjoyable one to do is likely to drive you insane, so it's nice to break it up with the more enjoyable one.
You are free to create your own scripts if you aren't happy with the existing systems people have made and publically released, but you should probably be aware that graphics are a stupid reason to make your own battle system. You can adapt an existing one to your needs with much less effort. Making your own menu system is another story; that's much less work and very reasonable. Making your own battle menus is also pretty reasonable. Menus aren't too hard, as scripts go. It's recoding all the gameplay that you'll very quickly regret.
As for starting with graphics or content, I prefer to constantly swap back and forth, making some of the graphics at the beginning and more as I need them, using placeholders as appropriate. Even if you don't know which yet, I can guarantee you'll vastly prefer one of those two things (graphics or content) over the other, and having several hundred straight hours of the less enjoyable one to do is likely to drive you insane, so it's nice to break it up with the more enjoyable one.
Is Ruby programming difficult to learn? I'm pretty decent at Math (took Algebra, Geometry and Trig in high school so that's all I know). I wouldn't mind spending a year or two learning the language as long as I will be able to develop something like the Mystery Dungeon series with it.
Thanks for the advice!
Thanks for the advice!
Well if I can give you any advice I would say you should start small (you allready mentioned you will). Concidering my job and my whole stance on games in general (I don't want to spent TOO much time on them) I prefer a good polished 1 to 2 hour game to a 40 hour epic story which was rushed.
As for progress, based on my experience it goes something like this:
- Think of your gameplay mechanics and a concept of your story (startpoint, endpoint, motivation and goals).
- Build the gameplay mechanics in your engine (the main advantage of this, is when you ever get tired of the story/graphic style you used/etc you still have a solid engine for a better concept of a game.
- Work out the story draft (main pointers being locations to visit and such).
- Set a graphic style, make the graphics.
- Build levels/maps etc.
- Define the story to dialogue level.
- Make cutscenes.
And you should be almost done by now. Offcourse you are always allowed to mix some of those points up, but I always kept it too experimenting.
Btw, LockeZ, I would genuinely like to hear more about your experience with event based battle systems. You might know I'm working on one and I must admit I've stumbled upon a lot of bugged systems, but I've also found loads of them entertaining and not buggy at all (Velsarbor is the last one I can recall). I'm very interested in your experience with them regarding to errors and gameplay issues and I would like to learn from you.
Edit:
Ruby isn't hard at all and pretty straigth forward. I'm no veteran but it will only take you a day to figure out how to change the menu systems. Making it more picture based, with gradient bars and showing characterportraits can be a bit tricky at the start, but at the moment there more than enough people who can help you with that.
I'm not to sure about scripting your own systems. It musn't be too hard, but also here: start small. Making something solid and building upon that experience gives way better results than soaking yourself in scripting madness.
As for progress, based on my experience it goes something like this:
- Think of your gameplay mechanics and a concept of your story (startpoint, endpoint, motivation and goals).
- Build the gameplay mechanics in your engine (the main advantage of this, is when you ever get tired of the story/graphic style you used/etc you still have a solid engine for a better concept of a game.
- Work out the story draft (main pointers being locations to visit and such).
- Set a graphic style, make the graphics.
- Build levels/maps etc.
- Define the story to dialogue level.
- Make cutscenes.
And you should be almost done by now. Offcourse you are always allowed to mix some of those points up, but I always kept it too experimenting.
Btw, LockeZ, I would genuinely like to hear more about your experience with event based battle systems. You might know I'm working on one and I must admit I've stumbled upon a lot of bugged systems, but I've also found loads of them entertaining and not buggy at all (Velsarbor is the last one I can recall). I'm very interested in your experience with them regarding to errors and gameplay issues and I would like to learn from you.
Edit:
Ruby isn't hard at all and pretty straigth forward. I'm no veteran but it will only take you a day to figure out how to change the menu systems. Making it more picture based, with gradient bars and showing characterportraits can be a bit tricky at the start, but at the moment there more than enough people who can help you with that.
I'm not to sure about scripting your own systems. It musn't be too hard, but also here: start small. Making something solid and building upon that experience gives way better results than soaking yourself in scripting madness.
Thanks Trujin. I'll definitely keep the whole "starting small" thing in mind. It's pretty easy to get overly ambitious. I found some useful tutorials over at rpgmakervx.net for Scripting and I'm going to start learning today.
Good luck on that =). Btw if you do tend to get overly ambitious just go and to the following: Think of a massive ambitious project you want to make. Step 2: Think of an even cooler side quest to make for that game. Make that side quest, wrap it up with some background story and release that as a game. Saved me a couple of times from ambitious horror =p.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I learned Ruby in about an hour, but I already knew how to program in other languages. Editing existing scripts is easier to learn than making new scripts though, and menu systems aren't too hard, since the main things you're gonna be changing are just the locations of things on the screen rather than any real functionality. I'd guess that even with no programming experience, you can probably find a basic programming tutorial online and learn enough about Ruby programming to make a menu system in about two weeks, though the actual crafting of the menu system might take another couple weeks.
My experience with event-based battle systems is mostly that they are a gigantic MESS. Stuff is formatted in ways that make it a nightmare to track down what you've already done and figure out how you did it. There are also a few things you just cannot do properly with events, and there are a lot more things that you can do but they require duplicating the same code thousands of times, on every exit tile of every map, and then realizing six months later that it causes a bug if the player tries to crouch in the middle of jumping into the water, and so you have to track down and change each of those thousands and thousands of events instead of just changing it once. (That is an actual example from someone's game I played, but I'll keep their name private to be nice, since the author might not want me advertising their problems.) That example is an action battle system of course, but menu-based battle systems don't have any fewer problems. And anyway, more to the point, events just aren't designed for that sort of thing and so everything you do is going to be working against the system instead of using the tools it gives you. It's just... it's not a fun way to spend your afternoons.
Novices seem to think that the idea of finding bugs late in the game's development that you didn't catch when you were making the system is a semi-rare occurance. This is the opposite of the truth. Expect it to happen a few dozen times over the course of your game's development. That's just how it works: you're not a great programmer and you're gonna make mistakes. So having to go back and edit code in a thousand different places to fix each one of them is going to cost you a couple months of work, probably - especially if you account for the procrastination that will inevitably spring up when you realize that's what you have to do.
These days I tend to take other people's public-use scripts and edit them until they serve my needs, rather than making anything from scratch. It's not always less work than building my own scripts or making evented systems (which can work well for small things like damage), but it's still the fastest for me because I have a working starting point. Without which I tend to open up RPG Maker, stare at it for an hour, realize there's nothing there that I can work on, and then close it and decide to try again tomorrow.
My experience with event-based battle systems is mostly that they are a gigantic MESS. Stuff is formatted in ways that make it a nightmare to track down what you've already done and figure out how you did it. There are also a few things you just cannot do properly with events, and there are a lot more things that you can do but they require duplicating the same code thousands of times, on every exit tile of every map, and then realizing six months later that it causes a bug if the player tries to crouch in the middle of jumping into the water, and so you have to track down and change each of those thousands and thousands of events instead of just changing it once. (That is an actual example from someone's game I played, but I'll keep their name private to be nice, since the author might not want me advertising their problems.) That example is an action battle system of course, but menu-based battle systems don't have any fewer problems. And anyway, more to the point, events just aren't designed for that sort of thing and so everything you do is going to be working against the system instead of using the tools it gives you. It's just... it's not a fun way to spend your afternoons.
Novices seem to think that the idea of finding bugs late in the game's development that you didn't catch when you were making the system is a semi-rare occurance. This is the opposite of the truth. Expect it to happen a few dozen times over the course of your game's development. That's just how it works: you're not a great programmer and you're gonna make mistakes. So having to go back and edit code in a thousand different places to fix each one of them is going to cost you a couple months of work, probably - especially if you account for the procrastination that will inevitably spring up when you realize that's what you have to do.
These days I tend to take other people's public-use scripts and edit them until they serve my needs, rather than making anything from scratch. It's not always less work than building my own scripts or making evented systems (which can work well for small things like damage), but it's still the fastest for me because I have a working starting point. Without which I tend to open up RPG Maker, stare at it for an hour, realize there's nothing there that I can work on, and then close it and decide to try again tomorrow.
A personal preference of mine is to select the style of tilesets and such before you get to creating the game content, but then just use stock resources for everything else (NPCs, battlers, etc.) until you're far enough along that devoting the time to find/make the graphical resources is worth it.
Once you've hit that point, you can find and start to build stuff in your game's style (which was probably decided back with the tileset style). Now, I'm not saying to not find anything - while I'm working on LSX and not 'officially' finishing up the graphics until a lot later on, I'm constantly searching the web for graphics and experimenting with making my own sprites to see what will work, making mock-ups or in-complete versions of graphics to plug holes in the default resources.
I find if I spend the time finding/making the resources ahead of time, I tend to be more wanting to find a new game to work on as opposed to finishing up what I'm on right now. Again, it might just be my personal preference here, but I prefer to have the systems working before I make the graphics for them - for LSX's menu, I drafted it out using just regularly skinned windows; once that was done and looked good in my head, I made the actual pictures that are used as the more finalized backgrounds and just shunted numbers around a little bit to make everything fit correctly. For my battle system edits, I've got the battlers and windows where I want them on the screen, but knowing how long it's going to take to make custom battlers for the characters, and then do it for the enemies as well (or find sprites that fit the style correctly), I realize it'll delay actually making the rest of the game far longer, so I just keep working on the game with the intention to finish up the graphics later.
Once you've hit that point, you can find and start to build stuff in your game's style (which was probably decided back with the tileset style). Now, I'm not saying to not find anything - while I'm working on LSX and not 'officially' finishing up the graphics until a lot later on, I'm constantly searching the web for graphics and experimenting with making my own sprites to see what will work, making mock-ups or in-complete versions of graphics to plug holes in the default resources.
I find if I spend the time finding/making the resources ahead of time, I tend to be more wanting to find a new game to work on as opposed to finishing up what I'm on right now. Again, it might just be my personal preference here, but I prefer to have the systems working before I make the graphics for them - for LSX's menu, I drafted it out using just regularly skinned windows; once that was done and looked good in my head, I made the actual pictures that are used as the more finalized backgrounds and just shunted numbers around a little bit to make everything fit correctly. For my battle system edits, I've got the battlers and windows where I want them on the screen, but knowing how long it's going to take to make custom battlers for the characters, and then do it for the enemies as well (or find sprites that fit the style correctly), I realize it'll delay actually making the rest of the game far longer, so I just keep working on the game with the intention to finish up the graphics later.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I tried making all the graphics ahead of time. I really did. Then about 10% of the way through, as soon as I had enough to make most of the first dungeon, I quit and made the first dungeon.
Personally I'm making my entire game using RTP. IF I finish and IF it's good then I'll focus on replacing all the graphics (and recoding it in Java or C++).
author=Daria
Personally I'm making my entire game using RTP. IF I finish and IF it's good then I'll focus on replacing all the graphics (and recoding it in Java or C++).
I seriously wish I could give this a like or a +1 or something - too many people focus on the graphics and the other resources and not enough on the stuff they should: story, mechanics, balance. The rest of the game ends up suffering because they spend too much time making everything look shiny, but not enough time working out the kinks in the rest of the game. I'm not saying this is true in every case, but easily with 90-95% of the cases.
I for one sometimes like that people here really worry about graphics, sometimes more than anything else. I come from a land where you have to build everything from scratch. That means that at least some of us (me included) look much, much more closely at mechanics and coding than anything else. Graphics, Story, Sound, those take a huge back seat (I often forget to think about sound at all, until my game is nearly done).
But here, with RPGMaker, I see some amazing things from people, things I would never have tried, because I only worry about codez and not graphicz. There's something to be said for that.
But here, with RPGMaker, I see some amazing things from people, things I would never have tried, because I only worry about codez and not graphicz. There's something to be said for that.
author=FlyingJester
because I only worry about codez and not graphicz.
Same here... I was worried about "graphics" once, but only about how to render them :D
author=FlyingJester
I for one sometimes like that people here really worry about graphics, sometimes more than anything else. I come from a land where you have to build everything from scratch. That means that at least some of us (me included) look much, much more closely at mechanics and coding than anything else. Graphics, Story, Sound, those take a huge back seat (I often forget to think about sound at all, until my game is nearly done).
But here, with RPGMaker, I see some amazing things from people, things I would never have tried, because I only worry about codez and not graphicz. There's something to be said for that.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't necessarily focus on graphics, but any number of people (myself included in the past) focus so much on finding resources that they never actually get around to building the game because they spend too much time working on the graphics and get burned out before any actual content is developed. I would personally rather see a complete game using core graphics than hear about a game that's being developed with entirely customized graphics that never gets off the ground because the author bit off more than they can chew with prebuilding resources.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't necessarily focus on graphics, but any number of people (myself included in the past) focus so much on finding resources that they never actually get around to building the game because they spend too much time working on the graphics and get burned out before any actual content is developed. I would personally rather see a complete game using core graphics than hear about a game that's being developed with entirely customized graphics that never gets off the ground because the author bit off more than they can chew with prebuilding resources.
This is the mistake I made when I started developing Zenrai Legends. 80% of the graphics were completed (sprites, menus, animations) but I never got around to actually designing the game itself or putting more effort into my custom systems/programming. I was so confident that the game was going to be created in less than a year but reality eventually sunk in and I gave up.
This is the mistake I made when I started developing Zenrai Legends. 80% of the graphics were completed (sprites, menus, animations) but I never got around to actually designing the game itself or putting more effort into my custom systems/programming. I was so confident that the game was going to be created in less than a year but reality eventually sunk in and I gave up.
Definitely care about story/gameplay first and foremost. I really can't think of too many games that turned out great that had the graphics down first (ie in alpha) and added gameplay to those graphics later...
Heck some of them never even got around to looking shiny and still play great! Just look at how much fun people had with pac man when it came out and that certainly wasn't the most complex or visually intense game out at the time.
Heck some of them never even got around to looking shiny and still play great! Just look at how much fun people had with pac man when it came out and that certainly wasn't the most complex or visually intense game out at the time.
I would absolutely build a prototype of the game with placeholders before any sort of graphics, story or anything else. This is my typical method and I prefer it because it is the quickest way to find out if your game is fun to play or not.
The exception to this rule would be a game where the graphics are heavily entwined with the basics of gameplay, or the game's enjoyability is dependent on creating a particular atmosphere. An common example are horror games, which try to create an extremely specific atmosphere that can be hard to reproduce with only placeholder graphics.
I suppose another exception to the rule would be a game with gameplay mechanics copied directly & exactly from another game; however in practice most of us hybridize our ideas between games that have influenced us, often across genres (which is a good thing), rather than copying a single game's gameplay 100%.
The exception to this rule would be a game where the graphics are heavily entwined with the basics of gameplay, or the game's enjoyability is dependent on creating a particular atmosphere. An common example are horror games, which try to create an extremely specific atmosphere that can be hard to reproduce with only placeholder graphics.
I suppose another exception to the rule would be a game with gameplay mechanics copied directly & exactly from another game; however in practice most of us hybridize our ideas between games that have influenced us, often across genres (which is a good thing), rather than copying a single game's gameplay 100%.
author=LockeZ
As for starting with graphics or content, I prefer to constantly swap back and forth, making some of the graphics at the beginning and more as I need them, using placeholders as appropriate. Even if you don't know which yet, I can guarantee you'll vastly prefer one of those two things (graphics or content) over the other, and having several hundred straight hours of the less enjoyable one to do is likely to drive you insane, so it's nice to break it up with the more enjoyable one.
This is what I do too.
When I make a new part in my game, I create some of the important custom graphics, like important character's sprites and facesets. Then I start on the actual gameplay, and use placeholders for less important stuff. About halfway if it's a fairly large part, or at the end if it's not so big, I create the graphics to replace the placeholders with.
I can't concentrate if I work on the same thing for too long.
I like swapping as well. One thing I want to avoid is burning out on something. And you can't really burn out on something if you're waiting to work on a new feature while creating resources.
Also, if I don't make any resources for awhile, I tend to be very rusty.
Also, if I don't make any resources for awhile, I tend to be very rusty.
Swapping is really nice, especially if working on one aspect tends to be more tiring for you. As an example, often making art assets can slow me down ('cuz I get perfectionist about them) but so can a big code hurdle. When that happens, I'll switch between code & art. A great way to keep your motivation up is to knock out something you know you can do well & quickly, and then use the high from that to plow through some of the parts you hate but you have to do (ex. mapping).
The last thing you wanna do is save all the stuff you totally, absolutely hate for last.
The last thing you wanna do is save all the stuff you totally, absolutely hate for last.




















