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NEED ANSWERS TO MAKE A GOOD TRADITIONAL RPG GAME (NOT NECESSARILY ASKING HOW TO MAKE A GOOD TRADITIONAL RPG)
Posts
bulmabriefs144
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Closeauthor=Craze
the problem with this topic is that you're asking about random shit that you think of when you think of "lolarrpeegee".
this is a cat in a box. you are the cat. the cat is in a box. therefore, you are in a box. this box is also a metaphorical representation of the trap that you are in.
i am going to remind you of several games now:
surprisingly i don't feel like being long-winded and patronizing today, so instead I'm just going to flat-out tell you the questions you should be asking. Also, you don't want to make a traditional RPG, you want to make a simple RPG. Dragon Quest I sucks now, yo'. Do you wanna date the girl your age or the geriatric? (Or guy. Whatever. Going off of statistics, here.)
All of the games i provided screenshots of are "traditional RPGS." They were on the NES/SNES, after all! And yet they're pretty far from Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy. Your terminology for what I believe you desire is flawed！！
okay here are the new questions
- Why do some RPGs have buffs, debuffs and status ailments? How can I simplify them, or remove them altogether, to create an experience that is easy to understand while deepening gameplay?
- Why do some RPGs have a "Defend" command? How can I change it to make it a more interesting gameplay mechanic? Could I remove it? What are the pros and cons?
- Am I going for the long-term attrition method, or a linear rampage? How will this affect ailment recovery, skill resource recovery, and how can I make this both obvious and engaging for the player?
- Do I enjoy grinding? Do I expect my players to enjoy grinding? Are there methods I could employ to hide it, or do I want to keep it open? What would grinding provide for the player, and for the game?
- What is an experience level?
- What is a hit point? A mana point?
- Death spells are stupid unless they are conditional because why not just cast Agilao?
you might notice that these questions are geared toward you
hint hint
Crystalis, Rudora no Hihou, and... what's the middle one?
Rudora-style spell usage can be done (not to the extent they pulled off though, there's some sort of built-in sorter that determines what works, what doesn't, and what gives a weird 1 damage deal, but you can definitely make a password style system).
I think someone made an rpgmaker version of Crystalis too (yea, here it is), so yes, it is possible to make nonstandard rpgs on rpgmaker.
author=OP
1. Almost never use buffs or debuffs, unless it gives me a godlike advantage
2. Never use any kind of defense option, exception 'active guard' in dbz attack of the saiyans
3. Never use status recovery options unless in a boss fight or in a bind
4. Slay everything that engages me in battle so that later on I don't get stuck and have to intentionally grind
5. Speed up the game if possible, for example vba and pokemon
6. Try to one hit KO opponents regardless of the requirements, for example use up lots of SP
This is why I like Final Fantasy X, the boss battles actually need a strategy in many cases, involving debuffs and status effects. For example, Seymour battle would be much harder if you didn't have the anti-elements. I'm embarrassed to admit that I often hack and slash, or finish up spam-using the same attack. Hack and slash is pretty stupid.
The middle one is the original Shin Megami Tensei game.
Rudras does far, far more unique-for-the-time things than the Mantra system, for the record. In the era of lolFFVI, it had:
and yet, it's still most definitely a traditional rpg.
Rudras does far, far more unique-for-the-time things than the Mantra system, for the record. In the era of lolFFVI, it had:
- Well, yeah, the Mantra system. You could learn words of power throughout the game and type up to ~forty (thirty-six? Somewhere around there) into your spellbook. Words like DEATH, ANGEL, VAMPIRE and LIFE would work, as would special prefixes and suffixes (AKU was an ice spell, AKUNA would hit all enemies)
- Enemies also cast mantras. You think that earth spell the boss used is nifty, or wanted to cast that GIGAPUSSPECK mantra that lowered your magic defense? You can save and cast them later! It's like blue magic... for every spell in the game
- Three storylines. Know how FFVI had the part where you could choose which order you did Sabin, Locke and Terra's stories? That's the entire premise of Rudras -- you have three heroes, each with their own unique and fleshed-out party, and you can swap between each story at will. Eventually they all come together for the finale
- Breath of Fire IV-style turn order. Know how in BoF4 you can organize your active party so that they act in a specific order, and the speed stat of the first character could hinder everybody else? Yeah, Rudras does that. Useful for healing after reviving, attacking before casting a spell to potentially save MP, etc.
- The Defend command lets you take half damage, as per normal... but you can also use it to cover allies. If Ramyleth is at low HP, let Ture cover him; the cover-er will take all damage for the ally that turn.
- A number of nifty equipment effects. Some weapons can attack all enemies, elemental defense makes you weak to the opposite element, you can deal bonus damage to certain enemy types, heavy armor slows you down etc. Game's just plain nifty -- this all sounds pretty run-of-the-mill now, but this was an SNES rpg!
and yet, it's still most definitely a traditional rpg.
Alright. If everyone says it was my mistake, then it was.. my mistake. Sorry Craze bro, really am. Honestly, still not completely sure whats outside of the box, but the answers work so can we just let it slide.
And again, sorry.
And again, sorry.
Biggamefreak
1799
author=SaitenHazard
Alright. If everyone says it was my mistake, then it was.. my mistake. Sorry Craze bro, really am. Honestly, still not completely sure whats outside of the box, but the answers work so can we just let it slide.
And again, sorry.
It's never a problem. We are all here to learn.
I do see what Craze's questions are offering. Do the features you enjoy in older RPGs make your game better or will they only serve as padding your game with the expected stuff?
Why put a feature in if you think that strategy will be useless? If your game won't offer anything meaningful to a certain strategy, it might be best to scrap it for your game.
Or if you see others finding a common feature useful, see how games encourage you to use that feature. (Ex: Defending against a charged attack, using ailments and attacks that truly cripple a boss.) You might like a strategy that you once found useless.
Mr_Detective
60
author=SaitenHazard
Alright. If everyone says it was my mistake, then it was.. my mistake. Sorry Craze bro, really am. Honestly, still not completely sure whats outside of the box, but the answers work so can we just let it slide.
And again, sorry.
Take it easy there, don't let it get to you. :P
author=Craze
The middle one is the original Shin Megami Tensei game.
Rudras does far, far more unique-for-the-time things than the Mantra system, for the record. In the era of lolFFVI, it had:
- Well, yeah, the Mantra system. You could learn words of power throughout the game and type up to ~forty (thirty-six? Somewhere around there) into your spellbook. Words like DEATH, ANGEL, VAMPIRE and LIFE would work, as would special prefixes and suffixes (AKU was an ice spell, AKUNA would hit all enemies)
and yet, it's still most definitely a traditional rpg.
I did alot of experimenting with Mantras. They had the holdover from what they told you were the passwords, Nihi- Ig- Agu- Teo- etc, in addition to the whole monsters calling out some. They had the various prefix and suffix words. They had English words such as I found Water, Earth, Air (or was it Wind), Fire worked. There were then synonyms with varying degrees, like Blaze for Fire or Tornado for Air, and Earth was multi-target so if you wanted the single target you needed something like Dirt. You can also splice prefixes together (O-Mega- or Omega tacked onto a word gives multitarget with a slight extra bang). Words like Day and Night, Heaven and Hell, all worked. Words mentioned in the plot like Jade and Rudra worked. English words could also be spliced with some of the prefixes (OMegaAngel works), adding an s to the end of a word is a suffix that makes it multitarget. Some Japanese words work (I think Hikari worked like Light, but this wasn't always a given). Some words work, but in odd ways (such as, different element than it should be). Some words work, but use way more MP than they do in terms of damage. There's some system in place, but it didn't seem to be a simple library. If a spell gave you Void 9/10 of the time it was a dummy, but even those had varying costs depending on letters/configuration.
'Think outside the box' is a saying that alludes to trying to break the boundaries of normal thinking when it comes to anything. In this case Craze was asking you to try and think beyond the normal Traditional types of games and perhaps find something interesting and new, or even old but revamped in a way that makes it feel new.
author=Liberty
'Think outside the box' is a saying that alludes to trying to break the boundaries of normal thinking when it comes to anything. In this case Craze was asking you to try and think beyond the normal Traditional types of games and perhaps find something interesting and new, or even old but revamped in a way that makes it feel new.
Wou! If that was what he meant then I am a DICK. I am going to say sorry again, don't care if it make me sound like a wuss, sorry bro. And Craze, post something like 'I forgive you' so that I know that we are cool now.
*The metaphoric cat tries to give you a metaphoric hug*
EDIT: I think I am derailing my own topic. Lets not post topic irrelevant stuff anymore guys. Exception, a 'its ok from Craze'
Craze, I don't know why you praise Rudra's Mantra system so much. Specially when you tend to be so picky about other stuff like considering casting buffs a waste of time... Rudra's Mantra system was a MASSIVE waste of time. Typing several words with a D-pad in between battles just to find out they were all variations of the same lousy spells you were using, except they costed three times as much MP, wasn't exactly FUN. At the end of the day you looked up the best mantras on the internet, beat the game, and shelve it. -_-
Heh; It was still a great game, though. And I loved the Indian mythology themes, no matter how shallow. xP
Heh; It was still a great game, though. And I loved the Indian mythology themes, no matter how shallow. xP
Crystalgate
694
1. Almost never use buffs or debuffs, unless it gives me a godlike advantage
I tend to use them against bosses unless the buffs have a low duration, but otherwise, I will only use them if they grant a huge advantage. That is not by itself enough though. More on this later.
2. Never use any kind of defense option, exception 'active guard' in dbz attack of the saiyans
True. There are games where I defend, but they usually attach other effects to defend as well or the game has a "defend right now dummy"
tell.
3. Never use status recovery options unless in a boss fight or in a bind
Yes.
4. Slay everything that engages me in battle so that later on I don't get stuck and have to intentionally grind
Usually, that's what I do. There are games where I skip a lot of on screen encounters though.
5. Speed up the game if possible, for example vba and pokemon
It happens, but usually I won't.
6. Try to one hit KO opponents regardless of the requirements, for example use up lots of SP
Nope, if an attack is to expensive, I won't use it.
Anyway, some games where I used buffs in random encounters are older Dragon Warrior games, Phantasy Star II (Deban from Snow Crown only) and Seventh Saga. In the old Dragon Warrior games, I could by casting a 3 MP Increase spell save myself from having to cast healing worth maybe 5-10 MP. In Seventh Saga, the buffs could mean the difference between a victory and defeat. In Phantasy Star II, both issues were prevalent. Also, the buffs were powerful in either games.
Now, Final Fantasy VII let you link Barrier to an All materia and that way you could cast a protective spell that halves the damage from most attacks. I didn't bother though. Why go trough that trouble when you can just eat the damage and then heal it? It's faster to just attack and heal. There are other games where I've faced the same issue, powerful buffs are ignored because despite their power, they don't contribute to anything meaningful.
RPGs are heavily number based games. I think that making skills useful is not a question of system, it's a question of numbers. The skills have to give the player a numerical advantage that actually matters.
In some of the earlier DW games, the Increase spell cost less MP than healing the damage you otherwise take. The numerical advantage lies then in MP spent. This matters because running out of MP and having to retreat and redo the dungeon was a very real threat. In Seventh Saga, the numerical advantage is lower chance of game over.
As for FF VII, the only advantage you got is less damage taken. However, why does it matter? I don't feel any pain when the characters take damage. The chance for a game over is pretty much zero either way and saving MP (doubtful you even do that by casting defensive spells in that game) isn't important since there's plenty of ways to replenish them mid dungeon.
So, if you want to make usually underused skills useful, they need to give the player a numerical advantage that actually matters. If you think of a skill like "it puts the enemies to sleep and therefore prevents them from acting" you will usually make it useless. Instead, look at what numbers you get. Does the skill decrease the chance of a game over? Does the skill decrease the amount of time battles takes? Does the skill decrease the use of a limited resource?
The upshot is, if you want to make a traditional game, you don't have to invent something new to make underused skills more appealing. You just need to get the numbers right.
I tend to use them against bosses unless the buffs have a low duration, but otherwise, I will only use them if they grant a huge advantage. That is not by itself enough though. More on this later.
2. Never use any kind of defense option, exception 'active guard' in dbz attack of the saiyans
True. There are games where I defend, but they usually attach other effects to defend as well or the game has a "defend right now dummy"
tell.
3. Never use status recovery options unless in a boss fight or in a bind
Yes.
4. Slay everything that engages me in battle so that later on I don't get stuck and have to intentionally grind
Usually, that's what I do. There are games where I skip a lot of on screen encounters though.
5. Speed up the game if possible, for example vba and pokemon
It happens, but usually I won't.
6. Try to one hit KO opponents regardless of the requirements, for example use up lots of SP
Nope, if an attack is to expensive, I won't use it.
Anyway, some games where I used buffs in random encounters are older Dragon Warrior games, Phantasy Star II (Deban from Snow Crown only) and Seventh Saga. In the old Dragon Warrior games, I could by casting a 3 MP Increase spell save myself from having to cast healing worth maybe 5-10 MP. In Seventh Saga, the buffs could mean the difference between a victory and defeat. In Phantasy Star II, both issues were prevalent. Also, the buffs were powerful in either games.
Now, Final Fantasy VII let you link Barrier to an All materia and that way you could cast a protective spell that halves the damage from most attacks. I didn't bother though. Why go trough that trouble when you can just eat the damage and then heal it? It's faster to just attack and heal. There are other games where I've faced the same issue, powerful buffs are ignored because despite their power, they don't contribute to anything meaningful.
RPGs are heavily number based games. I think that making skills useful is not a question of system, it's a question of numbers. The skills have to give the player a numerical advantage that actually matters.
In some of the earlier DW games, the Increase spell cost less MP than healing the damage you otherwise take. The numerical advantage lies then in MP spent. This matters because running out of MP and having to retreat and redo the dungeon was a very real threat. In Seventh Saga, the numerical advantage is lower chance of game over.
As for FF VII, the only advantage you got is less damage taken. However, why does it matter? I don't feel any pain when the characters take damage. The chance for a game over is pretty much zero either way and saving MP (doubtful you even do that by casting defensive spells in that game) isn't important since there's plenty of ways to replenish them mid dungeon.
So, if you want to make usually underused skills useful, they need to give the player a numerical advantage that actually matters. If you think of a skill like "it puts the enemies to sleep and therefore prevents them from acting" you will usually make it useless. Instead, look at what numbers you get. Does the skill decrease the chance of a game over? Does the skill decrease the amount of time battles takes? Does the skill decrease the use of a limited resource?
The upshot is, if you want to make a traditional game, you don't have to invent something new to make underused skills more appealing. You just need to get the numbers right.
Hope most people had subscribed and here goes nothing.
TRADITIONAL GAMEPLAY
The elemental system
is overused but it makes for great strategies due to the rock-paper-scissor effect.
Status effects
Burn, paralyzed, poison, buffs, debuffs and etc. is all I can think of when it come to status effects. Status effects definitely makes games more fun, but I can't seem to figure out any new ones.
In both cases I don't want to do what has been done probably ever since the fisrt turn based rpg but these are very important to give depth to the gameplay.
STORIES
How do I make compelling stories for rpgs. The way I come up with the stories for games is too straight foreword. I mean there's a plots and motives but nothing much.
Story thus fur:
3 friends get lost while having fun. Discovers mysterious artifacts that help them fight monsters. They try to get back home.
My thoughts:
Great start but only a start. Can't seem to build on it. I always see the overall picture but just can't make a rich story, a story connecting different areas and making the game feel non linear.
The way I see it right now is get from area A to G, for which have to cross area B, C, D, E and F. But games with great stories are more like you have to get from area A to area B, but along the way the story unfolds in such a way that it motives the player and the character to go to area B from A, then to C, then to D and so on. I know this is confusing but bear with me please.
ORIGINAL GAMEPLAY
Crucial items.
3 artifacts
When equipped grants the 'equipper' an ability.
Either non magic abilities, magic abilities or support abilites.
Obviously 1 character can't equip more then 1 at a time.
Dungeons
are divided into tiles. Each tile either spans an enemy, item or recovers hp or sp.
Tiles look different according to its application and so its obvious which does what.
If each an every tile is to be evented the screen is going to be cluttered and the sheer amount of labor would mean that the game is never going to get finished, and wont probably make a good game either.
If few tiles are evented then enemies will be too less in number and easy to avoid, while the benefits will be easy to gain.
Any and all ideas and suggestions are welcomed.
TRADITIONAL GAMEPLAY
The elemental system
is overused but it makes for great strategies due to the rock-paper-scissor effect.
Status effects
Burn, paralyzed, poison, buffs, debuffs and etc. is all I can think of when it come to status effects. Status effects definitely makes games more fun, but I can't seem to figure out any new ones.
In both cases I don't want to do what has been done probably ever since the fisrt turn based rpg but these are very important to give depth to the gameplay.
STORIES
How do I make compelling stories for rpgs. The way I come up with the stories for games is too straight foreword. I mean there's a plots and motives but nothing much.
Story thus fur:
3 friends get lost while having fun. Discovers mysterious artifacts that help them fight monsters. They try to get back home.
My thoughts:
Great start but only a start. Can't seem to build on it. I always see the overall picture but just can't make a rich story, a story connecting different areas and making the game feel non linear.
The way I see it right now is get from area A to G, for which have to cross area B, C, D, E and F. But games with great stories are more like you have to get from area A to area B, but along the way the story unfolds in such a way that it motives the player and the character to go to area B from A, then to C, then to D and so on. I know this is confusing but bear with me please.
ORIGINAL GAMEPLAY
Crucial items.
3 artifacts
When equipped grants the 'equipper' an ability.
Either non magic abilities, magic abilities or support abilites.
Obviously 1 character can't equip more then 1 at a time.
Dungeons
are divided into tiles. Each tile either spans an enemy, item or recovers hp or sp.
Tiles look different according to its application and so its obvious which does what.
If each an every tile is to be evented the screen is going to be cluttered and the sheer amount of labor would mean that the game is never going to get finished, and wont probably make a good game either.
If few tiles are evented then enemies will be too less in number and easy to avoid, while the benefits will be easy to gain.
Any and all ideas and suggestions are welcomed.
