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ARE ROGUE RPGS BAD RPGS?
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McBick
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McBick
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CloseFor more information on what a rogue RPG is here is a link.
I feel like only people who grew up with rogue RPGs enjoy them. Since I am one of those people I thought I would ask what the rmn community had to say about it. Please give a reason why rogue RPGs are bad/good.
I feel like only people who grew up with rogue RPGs enjoy them. Since I am one of those people I thought I would ask what the rmn community had to say about it. Please give a reason why rogue RPGs are bad/good.
Nowadays they're usually referred to as roguelikes, and the genre has recently been cross-bred with other common gameplay mechanics into some of the most popular and interesting games released in the past few years. For your viewing and debating pleasure: The Binding of Isaac, FTL, Spelunky, and to some extent Minecraft.
These games are all examples of well-done mashups of roguelike mechanics in new forms. While I'm not a huge fan of the original Rogue's combat (turn-based grid movement), there are a lot of ideas that it does well. Mixing short and difficult gameplay with permadeath and procedural/random generation leads to a game that you lose quickly and immediately pick up again.
Short/Difficult Gameplay
Of the above recent games, all but Minecraft feature short gameplay length and high levels of challenge. A game of Spelunky lasts from 30 seconds to 20 minutes. However, Spelunky's mechanics are learnable, predictable and for the most part fair - the game rarely feels like it's cheating you. The following are three major keys to a roguelike's charm:
Permadeath
This goes hand and hand with short gameplay length. Players die quickly but can learn from their mistakes. They never lose much progress because any one life is not particularly long.
Randomized World
Now, the above two factors would get really old if it meant you were always dying and redoing the same starting area of the game repeatedly. Randomization keeps the game alive and fresh by presenting you with the same obstacles laid out in a different pattern. Enemy positions change, your inventory changes, the map changes, and you are never faced with the same situation twice.
Mixed together, what kind of experience do these create?
---
Like I said before, the original Rogue and its knockoffs suffer from what I find to be an irritating battle system and complete lack of graphics. However, they have inspired some of the most unique and astounding games I've seen recently, and for that I appreciate them.
Here's an addendum question: Is it possible to tell a traditional story through a roguelike? Though they are great for creating water-cooler stories about your game, trying to actually tell a traditional story might be difficult due to the high difficulty and randomization. For that matter, can traditional stories be mixed with randomized, roguelike elements to create interesting stories all on their own?
too late
These games are all examples of well-done mashups of roguelike mechanics in new forms. While I'm not a huge fan of the original Rogue's combat (turn-based grid movement), there are a lot of ideas that it does well. Mixing short and difficult gameplay with permadeath and procedural/random generation leads to a game that you lose quickly and immediately pick up again.
Short/Difficult Gameplay
Of the above recent games, all but Minecraft feature short gameplay length and high levels of challenge. A game of Spelunky lasts from 30 seconds to 20 minutes. However, Spelunky's mechanics are learnable, predictable and for the most part fair - the game rarely feels like it's cheating you. The following are three major keys to a roguelike's charm:
Permadeath
This goes hand and hand with short gameplay length. Players die quickly but can learn from their mistakes. They never lose much progress because any one life is not particularly long.
Randomized World
Now, the above two factors would get really old if it meant you were always dying and redoing the same starting area of the game repeatedly. Randomization keeps the game alive and fresh by presenting you with the same obstacles laid out in a different pattern. Enemy positions change, your inventory changes, the map changes, and you are never faced with the same situation twice.
Mixed together, what kind of experience do these create?
- Replayability: The game is designed to be replayed, because two playthroughs will never be the same. Also, you're probably going to die a lot.
- Good Stories: Death is no longer simply a loss, but becomes memorable and exciting in itself. How far did you make it? How did you die? It will never be the same, and sometimes it creates a unique, exciting story to tell your friends.
- Critical Thinking, not Memorization: Unlike a level in Mario, you cannot beat a roguelike through sheer mental or muscle memory. Instead you must learn each piece of the puzzle individually, and frequently recompile that information as new combinations of those pieces are presented to you.
- Surprise: The game will sometimes spit out unique things that even you as the developer won't expect - it becomes a living, breathing thing that acts on its own.
---
Like I said before, the original Rogue and its knockoffs suffer from what I find to be an irritating battle system and complete lack of graphics. However, they have inspired some of the most unique and astounding games I've seen recently, and for that I appreciate them.
Here's an addendum question: Is it possible to tell a traditional story through a roguelike? Though they are great for creating water-cooler stories about your game, trying to actually tell a traditional story might be difficult due to the high difficulty and randomization. For that matter, can traditional stories be mixed with randomized, roguelike elements to create interesting stories all on their own?
too late
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If your definition of a roguelike specifically requires it to have shitty graphics, no attempt at plot or coherence, and endless dungeon crawling as its sole unwavering type of gameplay, then yeah, you're going to dislike them. Fortunately those things are not actually required. You can have a roguelike with a story, cutscenes, good pacing, really nice graphics, real-time combat, and multiplayer. Blizzard made three of them, in fact. They were called the Diablo series. I heard the second one was kinda popular? Binding of Isaac, Children of Mana, Recettear, that one xbox live arcade multiplayer Castlevania game, Chocobo's Dungeon and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon were all popular roguelikes as well, though Diablo is one of the only AAA roguelike titles.
The core elements of a roguelike are a strong focus on randomly generated challenges and rewards, and highly customizable character growth. They usually also have a tendency to hide even the most basic information about how anything in the game works from the player, via randomness, forcing them to figure it out from scratch each time they start the game over.
I definitely think action-rpg gameplay works better than turn-based gameplay for roguelikes. The game industry apparently agrees with me because that's the only kind they make any more. I'm not sure what makes it work better, but I do feel like it definitely works better. I guess it's much easier to randomly generate configurations of enemies and obstacles that require maneuvering in different ways, than to randomly generate configurations of enemy strategies that require choosing different tactics from a menu. The latter isn't impossible, but would require a lot more creativity from the designer, especially to do without overwhelming the player with complexity.
Lots of RPGs include a roguelike section as an optional part of the game. Lufia 2 and Disgaea are two of the most famous examples. This tends to work well, probably since people who like roguelikes almost always enjoy other types of RPGs also. So packaging them together as alternate gameplay modes of a single game seems to make sense. Even when you have to get 10 hours into the "normal" game before the roguelike part is unlocked, few people seem to mind. I could easily imagine just choosing Story Mode or Random Mode from the title screen, though.
The core elements of a roguelike are a strong focus on randomly generated challenges and rewards, and highly customizable character growth. They usually also have a tendency to hide even the most basic information about how anything in the game works from the player, via randomness, forcing them to figure it out from scratch each time they start the game over.
I definitely think action-rpg gameplay works better than turn-based gameplay for roguelikes. The game industry apparently agrees with me because that's the only kind they make any more. I'm not sure what makes it work better, but I do feel like it definitely works better. I guess it's much easier to randomly generate configurations of enemies and obstacles that require maneuvering in different ways, than to randomly generate configurations of enemy strategies that require choosing different tactics from a menu. The latter isn't impossible, but would require a lot more creativity from the designer, especially to do without overwhelming the player with complexity.
Lots of RPGs include a roguelike section as an optional part of the game. Lufia 2 and Disgaea are two of the most famous examples. This tends to work well, probably since people who like roguelikes almost always enjoy other types of RPGs also. So packaging them together as alternate gameplay modes of a single game seems to make sense. Even when you have to get 10 hours into the "normal" game before the roguelike part is unlocked, few people seem to mind. I could easily imagine just choosing Story Mode or Random Mode from the title screen, though.
Rogue RPGs are great! But they can be very frustrating to people who are more used to other types of games. Permadeath and losing all your stuff just for making a stupid mistake can easily turn people away, but picking yourself up and dusting yourself off are what these things are all about.
It most certainly is! And one of the most enjoyable/impressive ones I've played is Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer. It was a Japanese SNES title that was translated and ported to the DS, which is where I played it. The elements of a roguelike are almost all there, but with some very interesting twists.
Dungeons are randomly generated, but follow the same progression of areas each time. For example, the forest is always first, then the riverside, a small town, ridge, mine, etc.
Dying causes all possessions to be lost, but along the way are warehouses where items can be stored between runs. What you store and where you store it can greatly affect your chances of success.
Along with that, though, there are NPCs with sideplots that develop more with every run of the dungeon. Each time you see them, you get a little more of their story, and some even join you as party members. It's very interesting seeing everyone's little plots develop and become part of the narrative as a whole, and that's what makes it a good example for this question.
Maybe the industry does, but there's this little indie gem called Doom RL that does turn based with a twist. In it, actions are all turn-based, but the turns and their length are determined by time passed. When you start out, most actions take 1 second to perform, and during that second, other elements of the map play out their roles. In the time it takes to walk one step, enemies can also walk one step. If you get heavy armor, it takes you longer to walk, so enemies can possibly both walk AND attack you in the time you took stepping. It sounds more complicated than it is, but if you specifically choose actions that take short amounts of time, you can get away with almost twice as many turns as your foes sometimes.
Shiren is also turn-based, and even likened to Chess in-game.
So I wouldn't say it's completely dead, but it's certainly been adapted from what it used to be.
And yes, both these examples do have RPG mechanics of leveling up. For Shiren, it's a simple gain in HP and strength with every level, allowing you to endure more pain and dish out more yourself. In Doom RL, each level-up lets you put a point in a specific trait. Each trait is significant in its own right, and combining them in different ways opens up more specialized/beneficial traits later on.
So yeah, it's an interesting genre that really isn't for everyone, meaning it's not specifically good OR bad.
from slashphoenix
Is it possible to tell a traditional story through a roguelike?
It most certainly is! And one of the most enjoyable/impressive ones I've played is Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer. It was a Japanese SNES title that was translated and ported to the DS, which is where I played it. The elements of a roguelike are almost all there, but with some very interesting twists.
Dungeons are randomly generated, but follow the same progression of areas each time. For example, the forest is always first, then the riverside, a small town, ridge, mine, etc.
Dying causes all possessions to be lost, but along the way are warehouses where items can be stored between runs. What you store and where you store it can greatly affect your chances of success.
Along with that, though, there are NPCs with sideplots that develop more with every run of the dungeon. Each time you see them, you get a little more of their story, and some even join you as party members. It's very interesting seeing everyone's little plots develop and become part of the narrative as a whole, and that's what makes it a good example for this question.
from LockeZ
I definitely think action-rpg gameplay works better than turn-based gameplay for roguelikes. The game industry apparently agrees with me because that's the only kind they make any more.
Maybe the industry does, but there's this little indie gem called Doom RL that does turn based with a twist. In it, actions are all turn-based, but the turns and their length are determined by time passed. When you start out, most actions take 1 second to perform, and during that second, other elements of the map play out their roles. In the time it takes to walk one step, enemies can also walk one step. If you get heavy armor, it takes you longer to walk, so enemies can possibly both walk AND attack you in the time you took stepping. It sounds more complicated than it is, but if you specifically choose actions that take short amounts of time, you can get away with almost twice as many turns as your foes sometimes.
Shiren is also turn-based, and even likened to Chess in-game.
So I wouldn't say it's completely dead, but it's certainly been adapted from what it used to be.
And yes, both these examples do have RPG mechanics of leveling up. For Shiren, it's a simple gain in HP and strength with every level, allowing you to endure more pain and dish out more yourself. In Doom RL, each level-up lets you put a point in a specific trait. Each trait is significant in its own right, and combining them in different ways opens up more specialized/beneficial traits later on.
So yeah, it's an interesting genre that really isn't for everyone, meaning it's not specifically good OR bad.
Yea, they're bad all right.
I played exactly one roguelike (I think it was Final Fantasy Worlds), and while it was an interesting change of pace to me, who has never played this genre before that point... I thought about it (just now, when you mentioned it).
In short, roguelike are neither good nor an RPG. Nor is it particularly good as an action game. Also, if you want a format to copy, Tower of Druaga is a way better model. Solving the puzzle of each timed maze (some of which are outright weird like doing a Konami style code), gives you a treasure which can improve your chances of survival, allowing time to run low causes enemies to appear and other fun things. And some of the treasures you get actually suck, giving you things like poison. And unlike roguelike which is still very easy, these mazes are obscenely difficult with enemies flying or teleporting in or breathing fire or knocking down walls.
I played exactly one roguelike (I think it was Final Fantasy Worlds), and while it was an interesting change of pace to me, who has never played this genre before that point... I thought about it (just now, when you mentioned it).
- No plot. Having things happen is pretty much the point of a role playing game.
- Permadeath sorta makes sense for a strategy game (like Tactics Ogre) but for something supposed to be role-playing again, no.
- It sort of reminds me of zelda's sidescroll screens, but then there's a bunch of crap thrown in, not to mention you have to put up with it for the entire game.
- Randomization does not equal replayability. Sidequests, gameplus extras, and 100% completion. This is replay value, not ohhh wow there's a different random maze.
In short, roguelike are neither good nor an RPG. Nor is it particularly good as an action game. Also, if you want a format to copy, Tower of Druaga is a way better model. Solving the puzzle of each timed maze (some of which are outright weird like doing a Konami style code), gives you a treasure which can improve your chances of survival, allowing time to run low causes enemies to appear and other fun things. And some of the treasures you get actually suck, giving you things like poison. And unlike roguelike which is still very easy, these mazes are obscenely difficult with enemies flying or teleporting in or breathing fire or knocking down walls.
randomisattion does not "equal" replayability, but taht doesn't mean something doesn't get replay value by being random.
Roguelies are considered great for replay value because when you do try again, you get to know that you won't just be trapsing through the exact same levels and maps again, to the point where you just zone out. You get to experience different maps and something scenically new to travel through as you do the next run.
However, replay value can't rely solely on that one fact, but it can't be denied that the game would lose a lot of replay value should the randomisation be removed.
Roguelies are considered great for replay value because when you do try again, you get to know that you won't just be trapsing through the exact same levels and maps again, to the point where you just zone out. You get to experience different maps and something scenically new to travel through as you do the next run.
However, replay value can't rely solely on that one fact, but it can't be denied that the game would lose a lot of replay value should the randomisation be removed.
author=bulmabriefs144
Yea, they're bad all right.
I played exactly one roguelike (I think it was Final Fantasy Worlds)
"Roguelikes are bad and I base this conclusion on my experience with a single fan-game nobody has heard of (and probably for good reason)."
Roguelikes are addicting and fun, but a lot of the core roguelike fans worship the absolute worst aspects of them like ascii and klunky keyboard-only interfaces.
If you're looking for roguelikes designed for non-reptilian humanoids try: Dungeons of Dredmor, Izuna 1 & 2, Shiren the Wanderer, Elona, TOME and if you insist on being an '@' in something more trad, give Brogue a shot. A game from the cookoff, Subterrainean Starfield ,fits too, check it out.
You may have heard great things about Dwarf Fortress, but understand now that its interface consciously hates you and will try to wrestle you, physically, out of your computer chair every moment that you play it so it can spray water and lava over all the hours and hours of time and energy you put into it.
If you're looking for roguelikes designed for non-reptilian humanoids try: Dungeons of Dredmor, Izuna 1 & 2, Shiren the Wanderer, Elona, TOME and if you insist on being an '@' in something more trad, give Brogue a shot. A game from the cookoff, Subterrainean Starfield ,fits too, check it out.
You may have heard great things about Dwarf Fortress, but understand now that its interface consciously hates you and will try to wrestle you, physically, out of your computer chair every moment that you play it so it can spray water and lava over all the hours and hours of time and energy you put into it.
author=LockeZ
I guess it's much easier to randomly generate configurations of enemies and obstacles that require maneuvering in different ways, than to randomly generate configurations of enemy strategies that require choosing different tactics from a menu. The latter isn't impossible, but would require a lot more creativity from the designer, especially to do without overwhelming the player with complexity.
Ha! Agreed 100%. I'm in the middle of trying to make this work at the moment and even though I've only barely scratched the surface of randomized jRPG combat, I can feel some strong potential there. Like LockeZ said, making and balancing randomized battles and tactics is pretty tricky, and making deep battles without being overly complex is definitely one of my worries/goals.
Roguelikes tend to be short in actual length due to permadeath, so they may not be great for a 40-hour epic plot, but a short, sweet personal story would not be difficult to tell.
Also, if your only randomness comes from enemy and map layouts, I can see how it would be extremely boring. I think one of the best things you could do would be to randomize everything - abilities, items, stats, NPCs, quests, events, etc. - and to add layers of randomness. Soon you have a game with learnable gameplay but so many differing factors that it always feels new. Plus, you can have new elements unlock and shuffled into the pile as the player accomplishes certain tasks, so that they always feel like they're making progress, even if they die over and over.
---
Are there any good examples of roguelike elements in a traditional jRPG system, with standalone battle scenes and a longer plot? I'm curious to know.
I think the idea of roguelike seems best when it's sort of like that underground screen in the zelda games. And instead of permadeath, you basically have just the one character and have to start over with no items.
Using this means, yes, i could see a plot. Roguelikes as I understand them now (from what little I experienced), the interface is so distracting that it a plot ends up feeling tacked on.
Using this means, yes, i could see a plot. Roguelikes as I understand them now (from what little I experienced), the interface is so distracting that it a plot ends up feeling tacked on.
Yea, I definitely agree with that in regards to traditional roguelikes (like Rogue) and while I haven't played any great examples of a jRPG-like-roguelike, The Binding of Isaac manages to have a great (if sort of simple) plot/theme, as well as well-done randomized gameplay that's strongly inspired by the original Zelda. Plus, the randomization in that game reaches critical mass - the maps are random, the enemy groups are random, the powerups you find and how you level up is random, every time a little pickup drops it's random, and then it has a random chance of being "super" or "weak". It gets to the point of insanity and the fun is in trying to beat the game with the hand you're dealt. It's always beatable, but you're forced to get creative.
In other words, we should either ditch or improve the ASCII graphics and step-by-step combat, and fully embrace the randomized elements. The Diablo games are cool and they randomize some stuff, but it never reaches a truly surprising level, just some mixed-up maps and a scary enemy with weird modifiers once in a while.
In other words, we should either ditch or improve the ASCII graphics and step-by-step combat, and fully embrace the randomized elements. The Diablo games are cool and they randomize some stuff, but it never reaches a truly surprising level, just some mixed-up maps and a scary enemy with weird modifiers once in a while.
I have only played a few traditional rougelikes, and I personally didn't care for the gameplay; I don't like randomness in games, and when I die or get a bad drop due to sheer randomness, it does kill the fun for me pretty quickly. It's just not my genre.
That said, as others have suggested, randomness and the sense of discovery can be a real asset to a game. I suggest concentrating on the aspects of roguelikes that I've often heard praised; an emphasis on ingenuity from the player, quick and fun gameplay,and continually new and challenging situations. That seems to be the direction modern roguelikes are moving in (since the mainstream game industry wants games to be fun and accessible, so that they will sell).
Alternatively, you could make an absolutely brutal classic rougelike, which also has its own fanbase.
That said, as others have suggested, randomness and the sense of discovery can be a real asset to a game. I suggest concentrating on the aspects of roguelikes that I've often heard praised; an emphasis on ingenuity from the player, quick and fun gameplay,and continually new and challenging situations. That seems to be the direction modern roguelikes are moving in (since the mainstream game industry wants games to be fun and accessible, so that they will sell).
Alternatively, you could make an absolutely brutal classic rougelike, which also has its own fanbase.
GaretJax
0
Rogues can be either good or bad as can any other character class depending on how the developer chooses to display the character.
I have been struggling with the rogue persona in my projects because I don't believe the basic class has enough skills to make them quite as useful as some of the other classes. There should be some compelling reasons you would want to have a rogue class in your adventuring group. I have taken two tacts. One I have taken the basic rogue or thief class and added some unique skills such as a Mystic Thief with some unique magic skills and an assassin rogue with more robust fighting skills and some powerful attack skills at higher levels. I have also been working on other skills such as the ability to possibly detect traps which can improve as the thief levels up. Also I was thinking about giving the thief a detection skill that might aid in finding secret doors or other hidden things. I am currently working on an mod that features the key ability for the "player character" to choose the make up of his party which will have a definite influence of how he may be able to succeed in the game. Two rogue classes will be available, so we'll see how it works out.
I have been struggling with the rogue persona in my projects because I don't believe the basic class has enough skills to make them quite as useful as some of the other classes. There should be some compelling reasons you would want to have a rogue class in your adventuring group. I have taken two tacts. One I have taken the basic rogue or thief class and added some unique skills such as a Mystic Thief with some unique magic skills and an assassin rogue with more robust fighting skills and some powerful attack skills at higher levels. I have also been working on other skills such as the ability to possibly detect traps which can improve as the thief levels up. Also I was thinking about giving the thief a detection skill that might aid in finding secret doors or other hidden things. I am currently working on an mod that features the key ability for the "player character" to choose the make up of his party which will have a definite influence of how he may be able to succeed in the game. Two rogue classes will be available, so we'll see how it works out.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I don't think you understood what this topic is about at all
like not even a little bit
Even if youre gonna skip reading any of the replies, at least try reading the opening post
like not even a little bit
Even if youre gonna skip reading any of the replies, at least try reading the opening post
Okay as much as I have read that link provided in the first post, I still don't understand what a rogue-like RPG is.
author=Ratty524
Okay as much as I have read that link provided in the first post, I still don't understand what a rogue-like RPG is.
Here's some basic info on rougelikes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike
And here is a list of games that fit the genre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_roguelike_video_games
Typically and traditionally, a rougelike has been defined as a sub-genre of RPG that focuses on random exploration, item collection, and permanent or severe death. The term originated from the 1980 computer game "Rogue":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
You might not have ever played one. It's a pretty obscure genre, 99% of them are probably indie games.
In short, they're RPGs with randomly generated dungeons. They're more than that, but that's the most important thing. The rest of their unique elements are built around the idea of randomly generated dungeons - they have lots of ways to make random content more interesting and more meaningful.
Here's a more complete description from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike
Famous roguelikes include:
Rogue
Nethack
Diablo
Binding of Isaac
Torchlight
Anything with "Mysterious Dungeon" in the name
In short, they're RPGs with randomly generated dungeons. They're more than that, but that's the most important thing. The rest of their unique elements are built around the idea of randomly generated dungeons - they have lots of ways to make random content more interesting and more meaningful.
Here's a more complete description from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike
Famous roguelikes include:
Rogue
Nethack
Diablo
Binding of Isaac
Torchlight
Anything with "Mysterious Dungeon" in the name
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