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author=kentona link=topic=1340.msg20538#msg20538 date=1213797881
Let's try NOT to make this a GW bitch-thread. Stay on topic guys.
Yeah, sorry about that. I didn't have GW in mind in particular when I made this topic, but its no secret that GW has a lot of that sentiment, and people are getting sick and tired of it, so I kinda figured it would come up sooner or later.
author=Neophyte link=topic=1340.msg20523#msg20523 date=1213772711
I guess you mean in terms of story telling right? I edited my other post a bit, so you could get a better idea of what I meant.
Basically if the game is fun, I don't care if it's saving the world from Neclord the evil demon. As long as I'm enjoying the game I'm satisfied.
Yeah, exactly. The problem lies when people feel they're suddenly too enlightened to enjoy a video game storyline. Sure, they might enjoy the gameplay, but they're too busy comparing the storyline to the works of Virgil to enjoy that as well.
Erave
1444
I think Harmonic was dead on. People are NEVER satisfied. It doesn't really matter what you do honestly. So I just decided I'm going to make my games the way I want, and if people don't like it, oh well.
author=Erave link=topic=1340.msg20549#msg20549 date=1213808798
I think Harmonic was dead on. People are NEVER satisfied. It doesn't really matter what you do honestly. So I just decided I'm going to make my games the way I want, and if people don't like it, oh well.
Great attitude, that's the same way I feel, we're indie gamers and we should be able to do what we want without being judged.
Storylines are really important for me, sometimes more than gameplay tbh. Take Final Fantasy 8 for an example, I actually didn't like the game play that much, all you did in battle was summon your GF and draw a bit of magic now and then. If the storyline had been anything different I probably would not have played it. I guess it would work the other way around too, but I've never been truly mesmerised by game play like I have with stories. I'm very fond of a games story since it's visual and (Normally) interactive of some kind.
Don't get me wrong, gameplay is obviously a very important factor. Sometimes I'll watch YT videos of a games game play that I want to buy to see if I'll like it.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. We don't have to create games the way other people do it, all we gain from it is fame. Now if I was someone who was making a profit off my games working for my company, sure we would try to accomadate the crowds. Isn't the whole reason you make a game is to make something that you always wanted to see in a game. I'm sure you've played a game saying I wish this could of been in it or that. That's what started me on the trail.
The big issue is that too many think too big for their game. I think what needs to be fixed is that people expect to make the next epic RPG masterpiece, when that is a very hard to reach goal.
Shadowtext
120
author=WIP link=topic=1340.msg20556#msg20556 date=1213813434Yeah but isn't epic failure better than moderate success?
The big issue is that too many think too big for their game. I think what needs to be fixed is that people expect to make the next epic RPG masterpiece, when that is a very hard to reach goal.
demondestiny
889
author=WIP link=topic=1340.msg20556#msg20556 date=1213813434
The big issue is that too many think too big for their game. I think what needs to be fixed is that people expect to make the next epic RPG masterpiece, when that is a very hard to reach goal.
And they don't have the knowledge or anything if they create some type of custom system.
Good topic Mog.
As for the whole story thing...I think the problem with this is twofold. 1: People have no idea what a good game story is, and 2: People assume that, just because it's a game, the story is low priority inherently.
Game stories aren't movies or novels, but that doesn't mean they are totally irrelevant because they are neither of these things. The problem is that people expect the same kind or quality of story, and that just doesn't work. So in the end, we either get shit like the Tales games...anime campfests with cute characters but bad story development...or Xenosaga, which is too busy contemplating its navel to care about storyline pacing, or even telling us anything relevant within a reasonable amount of time at all.
It doesn't matter if it's conventional or totally unique. Just focus on telling the storywell.
As for the whole story thing...I think the problem with this is twofold. 1: People have no idea what a good game story is, and 2: People assume that, just because it's a game, the story is low priority inherently.
Game stories aren't movies or novels, but that doesn't mean they are totally irrelevant because they are neither of these things. The problem is that people expect the same kind or quality of story, and that just doesn't work. So in the end, we either get shit like the Tales games...anime campfests with cute characters but bad story development...or Xenosaga, which is too busy contemplating its navel to care about storyline pacing, or even telling us anything relevant within a reasonable amount of time at all.
It doesn't matter if it's conventional or totally unique. Just focus on telling the storywell.
S. F. LaValle
1069
Agreed with Karsuman. If more people actually focused on characterization instead of the story, there would be a lot more interesting games out there. Characterization is a big word, but it's a really simple concept that applies to epics and trifles alike. Often times, it only applies when you decide what a character is going to say and how they're going to say it. Still, it has the power to make or break your story. Mostly the latter, because characterization brings out the true amateur in a lot of us.
Really though, characterization is just one element of many that factor into a game's story presentation. There's pacing (Neophyte's gripe is a classic; cramming several minutes of info or scenes down a player's throat right off the bat), event planning (where is your character headed, why, and how is it relevant), and even scene direction/choreography. I should probably leave out key grips, gaffers, and hair stylists.
While I doubt that wholly better games would arise out of conscious acknowledgment of one or more of those elements, I feel that amateur games can much more easily develop their own unique character than a story that is unable to support its own ambition. Many of us will agree that these stories were imagined with ambition for the sole purpose of achieving its own character. Lower your standards on the story, refocus the effort on something else to support that story, achieve greatness, collect loots. Easy.
Really though, characterization is just one element of many that factor into a game's story presentation. There's pacing (Neophyte's gripe is a classic; cramming several minutes of info or scenes down a player's throat right off the bat), event planning (where is your character headed, why, and how is it relevant), and even scene direction/choreography. I should probably leave out key grips, gaffers, and hair stylists.
While I doubt that wholly better games would arise out of conscious acknowledgment of one or more of those elements, I feel that amateur games can much more easily develop their own unique character than a story that is unable to support its own ambition. Many of us will agree that these stories were imagined with ambition for the sole purpose of achieving its own character. Lower your standards on the story, refocus the effort on something else to support that story, achieve greatness, collect loots. Easy.
author=Shadowtext link=topic=1340.msg20560#msg20560 date=1213816049No.author=WIP link=topic=1340.msg20556#msg20556 date=1213813434Yeah but isn't epic failure better than moderate success?
The big issue is that too many think too big for their game. I think what needs to be fixed is that people expect to make the next epic RPG masterpiece, when that is a very hard to reach goal.
Blind
2262
author=Karsuman link=topic=1340.msg20588#msg20588 date=1213832320I think this is honestly a major issue for a lot of us, and for a number of reasons. Personally, I can openly say that weaving a *successful* narrative into the medium of a game is quite the task; and far separate than traditional writing... something many developers don't even seem to realize. The two don't necessarily correlate directly, if at all.
Good topic Mog.
As for the whole story thing...I think the problem with this is twofold. 1: People have no idea what a good game story is, and 2: People assume that, just because it's a game, the story is low priority inherently.
Like Mog said initially, stories in games need to be taken on their own merits and implementation, not compared to outside material in ascertaining quality. Thus Karsuman is again correct, most people either provide too little or FAR too much (Hello)... that ideal balance is a hard one to find. The essential infancy of the industry, coupled with the relatively abstract nature of Game Design makes for a considerable lack of context.
Shadowtext
120
Let me give you a simple comparison that will explain why epic failure is better than moderate success.
Sci Fi Novel Adaptations:
Moderate Success = the Sci Fi Channel version of Dune
Epic Failure = the David Lynch version of Dune
Magic Kung-Fu Action Flicks
Moderate Success = House of Flying Daggers
Epic Failure = Petey Wheatstraw, Son of the Devil
I mean, c'mon.
Sci Fi Novel Adaptations:
Moderate Success = the Sci Fi Channel version of Dune
Epic Failure = the David Lynch version of Dune
Magic Kung-Fu Action Flicks
Moderate Success = House of Flying Daggers
Epic Failure = Petey Wheatstraw, Son of the Devil
I mean, c'mon.
Jabbo
140
author=BlindSight link=topic=1340.msg20597#msg20597 date=1213843642
Personally, I can openly say that weaving a *successful* narrative into the medium of a game is quite the task; and far separate than traditional writing... something many developers don't even seem to realize.
This is true, but has anyone put a lot of thought into WHY this is true? Is it pacing? Inability to let the hero do things the player wouldn't? Limited quantity of text? The necessity of a lot of fighting?
Having never actually tried to do this before, I know I'd benefit a lot if someone wrote out a guide or "things to watch out for" in regards to RPG stories. I mean obviously a good story can't be quantified, but maybe the pitfalls can. The whole "I can't tell you where the good shipping lanes are, but I can point out some of the rocks" deal.
Having never actually tried to do this before, I know I'd benefit a lot if someone wrote out a guide or "things to watch out for" in regards to RPG stories. I mean obviously a good story can't be quantified, but maybe the pitfalls can. The whole "I can't tell you where the good shipping lanes are, but I can point out some of the rocks" deal.
I'm already on it.
author=Jabbo link=topic=1340.msg20611#msg20611 date=1213847444It's called interactivity. It throws many traditional rules and tools and assumptions about storytelling out the window. I recently started reading Chris Crawford on Interactive Storytelling - so far there hasn't been much meat, but it's been interesting so far.author=BlindSight link=topic=1340.msg20597#msg20597 date=1213843642
Personally, I can openly say that weaving a *successful* narrative into the medium of a game is quite the task; and far separate than traditional writing... something many developers don't even seem to realize.
This is true, but has anyone put a lot of thought into WHY this is true? Is it pacing? Inability to let the hero do things the player wouldn't? Limited quantity of text? The necessity of a lot of fighting?
Having never actually tried to do this before, I know I'd benefit a lot if someone wrote out a guide or "things to watch out for" in regards to RPG stories. I mean obviously a good story can't be quantified, but maybe the pitfalls can. The whole "I can't tell you where the good shipping lanes are, but I can point out some of the rocks" deal.
Some thing to look out for:
(Note: I am not a good writer. Feel free to smack me for making bad suggestions and I'll take them out)
- Don't spill the can of worms. Take one out, throw it to the audience, and repeat. Make sure the rate is enough that you're out of worms at the end without freaking out and throwing a handful at the player. Throw a few extra at 'shit hit the fan' moments, but not so much that you cover the player in shit.
Finding that magical rate is a problem though. Make sure you've got your plot planned out in advance so you can look it over
(Okay that's not the usual meaning of the Can o' Worms stuff. It kinda spilled out, hurr hurr)
- More words != superb writing! Same goes with longer words.
Try to keep the talking natural and without dragging it on. I remember Phylomortis (the RM95 version I think) everyone talked using rediculous words nobody ever heard of without consulting a dictionary first and the dialogue was painful to read. I'll even use myself as an example of dragging shit on:
"Is your quest going well? If you so desire I can convert souls into items that can help you in your quest."
Is terrible. Its so long I can't add the NPC name and have the two options appear below it in the same window. I rewrote it to:
"I can convert souls to items. What do you need?"
It isn't great, but its better than what it originally was. I spent some time today cutting down on some of the incredibly wordy dialogue I have in favour of something shorter and personally I like it a lot more.
- Editing!
Just because something is written doesn't mean you can't change it. Like above, I went to some old dialogue and changed it so its better. Once you write something, try to edit it after a few days and try to improve it. Odds are it'll be better than when you first wrote it (and you might catch some errors that you missed before too).
*edit*
Reading something like what Kentona suggested is probably a far better idea than listening to me. Or another book with writing fiction. It may not be the best for video games, but anything is better than the crap most developers write for games.
(Note: I am not a good writer. Feel free to smack me for making bad suggestions and I'll take them out)
- Don't spill the can of worms. Take one out, throw it to the audience, and repeat. Make sure the rate is enough that you're out of worms at the end without freaking out and throwing a handful at the player. Throw a few extra at 'shit hit the fan' moments, but not so much that you cover the player in shit.
Finding that magical rate is a problem though. Make sure you've got your plot planned out in advance so you can look it over
(Okay that's not the usual meaning of the Can o' Worms stuff. It kinda spilled out, hurr hurr)
- More words != superb writing! Same goes with longer words.
Try to keep the talking natural and without dragging it on. I remember Phylomortis (the RM95 version I think) everyone talked using rediculous words nobody ever heard of without consulting a dictionary first and the dialogue was painful to read. I'll even use myself as an example of dragging shit on:
"Is your quest going well? If you so desire I can convert souls into items that can help you in your quest."
Is terrible. Its so long I can't add the NPC name and have the two options appear below it in the same window. I rewrote it to:
"I can convert souls to items. What do you need?"
It isn't great, but its better than what it originally was. I spent some time today cutting down on some of the incredibly wordy dialogue I have in favour of something shorter and personally I like it a lot more.
- Editing!
Just because something is written doesn't mean you can't change it. Like above, I went to some old dialogue and changed it so its better. Once you write something, try to edit it after a few days and try to improve it. Odds are it'll be better than when you first wrote it (and you might catch some errors that you missed before too).
*edit*
Reading something like what Kentona suggested is probably a far better idea than listening to me. Or another book with writing fiction. It may not be the best for video games, but anything is better than the crap most developers write for games.
author=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=1340.msg20617#msg20617 date=1213849159
"Is your quest going well? If you so desire I can convert souls into items that can help you in your quest."
Is terrible. Its so long I can't add the NPC name and have the two options appear below it in the same window. I rewrote it to:
"I can convert souls to items. What do you need?"
It isn't great, but its better than what it originally was. I spent some time today cutting down on some of the incredibly wordy dialogue I have in favour of something shorter and personally I like it a lot more.
Neither of those lines are particularly good, but they illustrate a key storytelling point as related to dialogue: flavor versus functional. The first line is much more colorful than the second, while the second is more clear than the first. It's an issue of style versus getting to the point.
I tend to err on the side of flavor, personally, but functional dialogue has its place. Stylistic/flavorful/colorful dialogue is generally better for character development, however, because it allows us to distinguish between characters better than with functional dialogue. (Note that I am not advocating BIG WORDS; flavorful dialogue can be concise as well)
Kind of off topic, but I figure I'd point that out.
I really should write those storytelling articles...
I'd argue that the first line is mostly fluff that actually doesn't say anything. 'If you so desire' adds absolutely nothing to the dialogue except letters that need to be displayed and it sounds incredibly unnatural. Really, I was probably thinking of "How could I make this line better?" and came to some stupid conclusion that adding junk would help.
